When did you know the season was over?

[DienerTime34]

I honestly thought we were a bubble team the night we beat Arizona St.

I knew it was over when the refs ruled Carlino's foot was on the line against Georgetown, and the team didn't show up for the overtime period.

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

After the UNO loss I thought we'd be really bad, got some hope by the ASU game, then knew an at large bid was toast after the GTown loss.

[mumagz84]

After they lost to DePaul on New Year's Eve and I then changed my conference win projection that night to five from 10.  If they win tonight and beat DePaul on Saturday, my projection would be correct. Either way, this will go down as one of five under .500 seasons in the last 50 years.

I knew after the DePaul loss, however, this was going to be a transition year.

[brewcity77]

The season is not over.

[GooooMarquette]

The season is not over.

+1

[CTWarrior]

The close win over NJIT on the heels of the loss to UNO ended my faint hopes of an NCAA bid, but I held out slim hope for the NIT until Seton Hall rolled us at home.

[Blackhat]

When Wojochewski went back to man to man defense.

Some of the worst man up d I've seen, zone defense was actually solid.   

[Litehouse]

It's not over until we lose in MSG.

[Groin_pull]

The loss to UNO. At that point, I knew it would be an extremely bumpy ride.

[Marquette_g]

The close win over NJIT on the heels of the loss to UNO ended my faint hopes of an NCAA bid, but I held out slim hope for the NIT until Seton Hall rolled us at home.

This hits the nail on the head for me.  

I can't recall a time since I went to MU (started in 1996) where I cared less about the team or a game.  

1. This team is terrible and isn't any fun to watch

2. Our conference - which I've been against since it was first announced that the C-7 would break away - contains no real rivals.  Who within our conference would we consider our biggest rival?  Depaul?  I know others were moving around us, but I'd still rather be in a conference with UCONN and Cincy than where we are now.

3.  The college game itself has gotten worse while the NBA game has improved.  I feel like the college game is struggling to try and keep up with the NBA instead of being their own product.  Having some replays is fine, but there should not be 5 minute delays in the action for an out-of-bounds decisions 8 minutes into the game.

4. We have a great recruiting class coming in, but it is fair to ask how good of a coach Wojo is?  I'm not saying he isn't good, but it would be premature to say that he is.  He doesn't have much talent, but he certainly hasn't maximized what he has either.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

This hits the nail on the head for me.  

I can't recall a time since I went to MU (started in 1996) where I cared less about the team or a game.  

1. This team is terrible and isn't any fun to watch

2. Our conference - which I've been against since it was first announced that the C-7 would break away - contains no real rivals.  Who within our conference would we consider our biggest rival?  Depaul?  I know others were moving around us, but I'd still rather be in a conference with UCONN and Cincy than where we are now.

3.  The college game itself has gotten worse while the NBA game has improved.  I feel like the college game is struggling to try and keep up with the NBA instead of being their own product.  Having some replays is fine, but there should not be 5 minute delays in the action for an out-of-bounds decisions 8 minutes into the game.

4. We have a great recruiting class coming in, but it is fair to ask how good of a coach Wojo is?  I'm not saying he isn't good, but it would be premature to say that he is.  He doesn't have much talent, but he certainly hasn't maximized what he has either.

Intro and 1. Agreed

2. Really? If you honestly think MU is better off in the American conference, you're clueless. I agree we don't have great rivalries, but they'll develop. The Big East has the 2nd best conference RPI and will year in and year out be in the top 4 conferences.  All while the American will die with UConn and Cincy inevitably get picked off by a power conference. 

3. Agreed. The college product has been piss poor the past few years, especially this year. There just aren't very many good teams, and only one great team. I could see a bunch of double digit seeds in the S16.

4. I cannot put this on Wojo.  I haven't exactly been thrilled with everything he has done, but what the heck is he supposed to do? Can't exactly mix up the lineup.  Losing Burton did and will hurt, and that bugs me, but I am not sure he could have done anything to change it.

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

I really like the current BE.  I think Butler and Xavier will be our rivals once we're good again.  I have too much respect for Nova to really hate them.  Georgetown I can both respect and hate.  Wisconsin is the biggest rival right now.  Definitely miss Louisville and ND but don't care about UConn and Cincy.  Georgetown has replaced UConn as the team I respect and hate at the same time.  Were we ever really rivals with Cincy or was it just because they were always the top dog?  When the Bearcats fell off it definitely lost that rivalry feel.

Too early to judge Wojo as a coach.  Wait 5 years to judge.

[Marquette_g]

Intro and 1. Agreed

2. Really? If you honestly think MU is better off in the American conference, you're clueless. I agree we don't have great rivalries, but they'll develop. The Big East has the 2nd best conference RPI and will year in and year out be in the top 4 conferences.  All while the American will die with UConn and Cincy inevitably get picked off by a power conference.  

3. Agreed. The college product has been piss poor the past few years, especially this year. There just aren't very many good teams, and only one great team. I could see a bunch of double digit seeds in the S16.

4. I cannot put this on Wojo.  I haven't exactly been thrilled with everything he has done, but what the heck is he supposed to do? Can't exactly mix up the lineup.  Losing Burton did and will hurt, and that bugs me, but I am not sure he could have done anything to change it.

My point is not the current version of the American vs. the Current version of the Big East, but rather the American that includes the C-7.  I just feel the C-7 jumped too soon, and that greener pastures would have developed, bc I don't think the football conferences are done.  Eventually there will be some have-nots that could have been interesting.

A conversation for another day and a different thread though.

I agree completely that it is too early to judge Wojo, my thought is that his ability remains unknown as there are both positive and concerning signs.

[JakeBarnes]

It was my understanding the season is still going. Or so the FS1 commercials showing the Big East Tournament say.

[Groin_pull]

This hits the nail on the head for me.  

I can't recall a time since I went to MU (started in 1996) where I cared less about the team or a game.  

1. This team is terrible and isn't any fun to watch

2. Our conference - which I've been against since it was first announced that the C-7 would break away - contains no real rivals.  Who within our conference would we consider our biggest rival?  Depaul?  I know others were moving around us, but I'd still rather be in a conference with UCONN and Cincy than where we are now.

3.  The college game itself has gotten worse while the NBA game has improved.  I feel like the college game is struggling to try and keep up with the NBA instead of being their own product.  Having some replays is fine, but there should not be 5 minute delays in the action for an out-of-bounds decisions 8 minutes into the game.

4. We have a great recruiting class coming in, but it is fair to ask how good of a coach Wojo is?  I'm not saying he isn't good, but it would be premature to say that he is.  He doesn't have much talent, but he certainly hasn't maximized what he has either.

1. Sadly, I'm with you on this one. I now expect MU to lose every game...and struggle to care if they do. Heck, I've even missed a game or two entirely...not realizing MU had even played until the next day.

2. The Big East is the best MU could do, but it feels more mid-major that Power 5. Half-filled arenas and teams with players I've never heard of. And now, if you have AT&T, you can't even watch any of the games. Again, MU didn't have any choice, but it's sad to see where the Big East is now versus a few short years ago.

3. The NBA is miles ahead of college hoops. Most games are simply unwatchable. Poor shooting, endless turnovers, and coaches who think they're the stars of the show. And let's not mention the ridiculous number of timeouts during each game. It's a grind to get through a game these days.

4. Wojo has shown some growing pains, no doubt. I fear that next season could be a lot like this one. We're all putting tremendous pressure on the incoming freshmen to come in and instantly dominate—returning MU to glory. How often does a freshman come in and do that? Not too often.

I'd add 5. This is all going on while the Vadgers are on top the mountain. Coming off a Final Four...heading to another...Big 10 champions again...and Diamond Stone waiting in the wings.

If it sounds like I'm down, it's because I am.

[tower912]

The season isn't over.    If you are asking 'when did you know that MU was not going to have a successful season?', the answer is 11 months ago.   
Buzz left taking most of his recruit class with him, 70% of the scoring leaving from a 17-15 team, no size, do depth, no proven scoring, first time coach...... all of these things were clear 11 months ago. 

[Galway Eagle]

When the buzzer sounds at the end of the national championship game which we'll win because we made the tournament through winning the big east tournament the season will be over.

[MuMark]

I knew we were going to have a bad season at the Halloween scrimmage

[JakeBarnes]

I knew we were going to have a bad season at the Halloween scrimmage

I knew we were going to have a bad season 5 years ago, before anyone even heard of this team. #hipstered

[warriorfan 14]

The close win over NJIT on the heels of the loss to UNO ended my faint hopes of an NCAA bid, but I held out slim hope for the NIT until Seton Hall rolled us at home.

same here

[MU82]

The season isn't over.    If you are asking 'when did you know that MU was not going to have a successful season?', the answer is 11 months ago.   
Buzz left taking most of his recruit class with him, 70% of the scoring leaving from a 17-15 team, no size, do depth, no proven scoring, first time coach...... all of these things were clear 11 months ago. 

Absolutely this.

UNO/NJIT merely confirmed it.

Unlike some others, though, I haven't bailed on the season. I still enjoy it when a Duane or JJJ or Cohen or Luke shows a little spark. And I remain positive about our future.

It is impossible to judge Wojo, but being a positive person at heart and looking at his recruiting efforts so far, I tend to lean toward, "He's gonna be real good when he gets more game experience."

I actually was far more frustrated last season because Buzz had so much more to work with.

[tower912]

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=43773.msg615625#msg615625

Started this thread on April 10, 2014.   Looking at what was coming back and advocating 'deep cleansing breaths'.

Broached the idea of Derrick starting at the point on April 8.

[RushmoreAcademy]

The Georgetown overtime loss was really a shot to the solar plexus.
If I had to pick I'd say there.

[Golden Avalanche]

When did the season start?

[Marcus92]

2. The Big East is the best MU could do, but it feels more mid-major that Power 5. Half-filled arenas and teams with players I've never heard of. And now, if you have AT&T, you can't even watch any of the games. Again, MU didn't have any choice, but it's sad to see where the Big East is now versus a few short years ago.

Think this one's more based in perception than reality.

The 2015 Big East — not the mythical "Big East" of Patrick Ewing and Carmelo Anthony, nor some hypothetical Frankenstein-inspired Big East/AAC creation — is ranked #2 in the country for conference RPI.

Villanova is 27-2 and ranked ahead of the best teams in the Big Ten (Wisconsin), Pac-10 (Arizona) and Big 12 (Kansas), respectively.

With tournament time just around the corner, most sources predict 6 NCAA bids for the Big East. That's 6 out of 10 conference teams making the field of 68. How is that less impressive than the Big Ten sending 7 of 14 teams? Or the ACC sending 6 of 15 teams? And how does that possibly qualify as mid-major?

I'll grant you that there aren't a lot of big-name players beyond Kris Dunn, Chris Objekpa and Josh Smith. But there's a lot of talent in this league. Come tournament time, chances are that others will be making names for themselves.

My advice: stop pining for what the Big East used to be. It used to be a highly unstable conference that pull all its chips on football and lost big-time when school after school — including BC, Louisville, Miami, ND, Pitt, Rutgers, Syracuse, VT, WV — left for greener pastures.

The current Big East is a great basketball conference with a strong foundation and a bright future. It doesn't have to try to be the ACC or the Big Ten. In today's chaotic college athletics landscape, I wouldn't want Marquette anywhere else.

[WarhawkWarrior]

I knew the season was over when the fair weather fans no longer cared to cheer for their team.  Sad.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

Think this one's more based in perception than reality.

The 2015 Big East — not the mythical "Big East" of Patrick Ewing and Carmelo Anthony, nor some hypothetical Frankenstein-inspired Big East/AAC creation — is ranked #2 in the country for conference RPI.

Villanova is 27-2 and ranked ahead of the best teams in the Big Ten (Wisconsin), Pac-10 (Arizona) and Big 12 (Kansas), respectively.

With tournament time just around the corner, most sources predict 6 NCAA bids for the Big East. That's 6 out of 10 conference teams making the field of 68. How is that less impressive than the Big Ten sending 7 of 14 teams? Or the ACC sending 6 of 15 teams? And how does that possibly qualify as mid-major?

I'll grant you that there aren't a lot of big-name players beyond Kris Dunn, Chris Objekpa and Josh Smith. But there's a lot of talent in this league. Come tournament time, chances are that others will be making names for themselves.

My advice: stop pining for what the Big East used to be. It used to be a highly unstable conference that pull all its chips on football and lost big-time when school after school — including BC, Louisville, Miami, ND, Pitt, Rutgers, Syracuse, VT, WV — left for greener pastures.

The current Big East is a great basketball conference with a strong foundation and a bright future. It doesn't have to try to be the ACC or the Big Ten. In today's chaotic college athletics landscape, I wouldn't want Marquette anywhere else.

Nice post, and I agree. I'd be lying if I told you that IF a few basketball only schools (say Nova, Gtown and Marquette) were invited to the Big 10, ACC or even the Big 12, that I wouldn't want them to join. It'd be great, but the bottom line is the Big East is going to be a pretty solid conference from top to bottom, every year.  The Big 10 and ACC cannot say that. However, that scenario is never going to play out.

The BE is a good place to be, and the recognition will come with time.  I also think the new TV contract is fabulous....every single game is super duper accessible if you're willing to fork over a little dough, something I have zero problem doing to be able watch my favorite team.

[willie warrior]

Xavier, DePaul, Villanova and Creighton should be natural rivals. Back in the 60's and 70's we played Creighton every year, it seems. Villanova and Georgetown from the BEast. Xavier could also be a traditional rival.

[wadesworld]

If by "done" you mean not going to be making any noise in March, I knew it the second we finished last season 17-15 and did not return our top 4 players from the team...

[GoldenZebra]

What is the point of a thread like this? We all know we suck, so why beat a dead horse?

[Marcus92]

The BE is a good place to be, and the recognition will come with time.  I also think the new TV contract is fabulous....every single game is super duper accessible if you're willing to fork over a little dough, something I have zero problem doing to be able watch my favorite team.

Looking at what all the universities of the Big East have in common, the conference has a chance to be stable for 10+ years. I think there's a far better chance of adding a school or two than losing anybody.

Right now, the schools of the Big East cover some of the top metro markets in the country:

#1 NY/Newark (St. John's, Seton Hall)
#3 Chicago (DePaul)
#6 Philadelphia (Villanova)
#7 Washington, D.C. (Georgetown)
#28 Cincinnati (Xavier)
#33 Indianapolis (Butler)
#38 Providence (Providence)
#39 Milwaukee (Marquette)
#60 Omaha (Creighton)

I see 4 realistic contenders:

Dayton
Doesn't have quite the same basketball pedigree as much of the conference, but a strong program historically on track to make its second NCAA tourney in 2 seasons. Plays in the same football-only conference as Butler (the non-scholarship Pioneer Football League). Trails Omaha in market size at #71.

St. Louis
Similar to Dayton in terms of on-court success. Made the tourney the past 3 years, but struggling this season. No football team. The big difference: St. Louis, Missouri is the country's #19 metro market. That's got to be a big attraction.

Virginia Commonwealth University
Predicted to make its 5th straight NCAA tourney this year, with a Final Four in 2011. Headed by one of the best-known young coaches in college basketball in Shaka Smart. Plays club-level football. About 100 miles south of Washington, D.C., Richmond is the #44 market in the U.S.

Wichita State
On its way to a 4th straight appearance in the NCAAs, after winning the NIT in 2010-11. A member of the same conference we plucked Creighton from (Missouri Valley). No football team. Market-wise, Wichita may not be the best fit at #84.

If the Big East is stable, I don't see any reason why the conference has to expand. I don't know if that's even a goal right now. But I'm sure it's being explored.

Personally, I think St. Louis and VCU would make great additions. Both are Top 200 universities focused on basketball, and they would expand the geographic footprint of the conference into two strong new markets (1 on the East coast, 1 in the Midwest).

I wouldn't bet on it happening, though; I'd put the chances of Big East expansion in the next 5 years at maybe 50/50, probably less.

[chapman]

Georgetown seems like the best pick.  We were holding serve at home before that, plenty of close losses on the road.  Went from thinking we could maybe find our fortunes to knowing we just didn't have it and couldn't fake it.

I'm probably against expansion now more than ever.  I wanted one decent basketball program and then BU just to make the road trips, but after the hellish winter they've had up there I'm having second thoughts.

[lohaus]

When Carlino had to be the 'man' and when Burton was coming off the bench.

[Groin_pull]

Think this one's more based in perception than reality.

The 2015 Big East — not the mythical "Big East" of Patrick Ewing and Carmelo Anthony, nor some hypothetical Frankenstein-inspired Big East/AAC creation — is ranked #2 in the country for conference RPI.

Villanova is 27-2 and ranked ahead of the best teams in the Big Ten (Wisconsin), Pac-10 (Arizona) and Big 12 (Kansas), respectively.

With tournament time just around the corner, most sources predict 6 NCAA bids for the Big East. That's 6 out of 10 conference teams making the field of 68. How is that less impressive than the Big Ten sending 7 of 14 teams? Or the ACC sending 6 of 15 teams? And how does that possibly qualify as mid-major?

I'll grant you that there aren't a lot of big-name players beyond Kris Dunn, Chris Objekpa and Josh Smith. But there's a lot of talent in this league. Come tournament time, chances are that others will be making names for themselves.

My advice: stop pining for what the Big East used to be. It used to be a highly unstable conference that pull all its chips on football and lost big-time when school after school — including BC, Louisville, Miami, ND, Pitt, Rutgers, Syracuse, VT, WV — left for greener pastures.

The current Big East is a great basketball conference with a strong foundation and a bright future. It doesn't have to try to be the ACC or the Big Ten. In today's chaotic college athletics landscape, I wouldn't want Marquette anywhere else.

You're right. It's perception...which is reality to many. The league has no buzz. No superstars. And thanks to Fox-AT&T, no exposure. It feels second-rate. Sorry, just expressing my honest feelings.

[Tums Festival]

You're right. It's perception...which is reality to many. The league has no buzz. No superstars. And thanks to Fox-AT&T, no exposure. It feels second-rate. Sorry, just expressing my honest feelings.

AT&T is a small segment of the market (about 6%) when put up against the Comcasts, DirecTVs and TimeWarners of the world. It only seems like a bigger deal because of the AT&T subscribers that have posted here, and it's getting next to no mention in the news.

[tower912]

Early prediction for next year.   I don't know if JJJ is going to transfer or not.   What I do know is that we are counting on guys who didn't set the world on fire this year and high schoolers.     If Henry is truly a 1-and-done talent, 19 wins.   If he is merely very good and not transcendent, .500 is a worthy goal.  So many young, skinny, inexperienced guys.    Next years leaders are.....Duane.....Luke (?)....   Think about that.   Assuming we have the bodies and some depth, next year is the year where we see Wojo start to really put in his system.   But it isn't the year MU gets back to the top 1/2 of the Big East. 

[jsglow]

Personally, I'd like us not to overload the non-con schedule next year.  Sure folks will complain about all the cupcakes but rather than focus on RPI I think we need to rebuild a culture of winning first, especially while depending on so many young guys.

To answer the question, I strongly suspected a very long season following the Omaha and NJIT games.  I saw progress during the Thanksgiving tourney and with the ASU and even Wisconsin games.  Losing at DePaul suggested a return to the bumpy ride for me.

[Dr. Blackheart]

April 1. It was just a question if it was a reset year or a rebuild year. It was decided it was a reset year.

[Blackhat]

Might be a regret year.

I don't think it is yet but man.

[mattyv1908]

You're right. It's perception...which is reality to many. The league has no buzz. No superstars. And thanks to Fox-AT&T, no exposure. It feels second-rate. Sorry, just expressing my honest feelings.

Dunn, Henton, Ochefu, Obekpa, Harrison, Pointer, Hilliard, Garrett Jr, Gibbs, and Delgado will be/can become NBA players and there's probably some names I forgot to include in this list.

Don't project the sh!ttiness of Marquette this year onto the rest of the league as there are some big time NCAA/potential NBA players in the Big East.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

AT&T is a small segment of the market (about 6%) when put up against the Comcasts, DirecTVs and TimeWarners of the world. It only seems like a bigger deal because of the AT&T subscribers that have posted here, and it's getting next to no mention in the news.

+100. That's what you get when you have a crappy TV provider like Uverse...just expressing my honest feelings there.

[BM1090]

Personally, I'd like us not to overload the non-con schedule next year.  Sure folks will complain about all the cupcakes but rather than focus on RPI I think we need to rebuild a culture of winning first, especially while depending on so many young guys.

To answer the question, I strongly suspected a very long season following the Omaha and NJIT games.  I saw progress during the Thanksgiving tourney and with the ASU and even Wisconsin games.  Losing at DePaul suggested a return to the bumpy ride for me.

I agree with the first part 100%. Our first game will be against a Big Ten team for the Gavitt games. I'm hoping for Northwestern, good shot at a win and an improved team wouldn't be a drag on our RPI. Then I'm hoping for about 4 cupcakes before the Brooklyn tournament. Then a couple more cupcakes and Wisconsin.

I officially gave up hope after the Gtown close loss at home, but you could tell things were bad right from the beginning.

[alexius23]

When De Paul beat us in Chicago. The Blue Demons had been MU's punching bag for a longish time

[HutchwasClutch]

The Georgetown overtime loss was really a shot to the solar plexus.
If I had to pick I'd say there.

I agree with this, Georgetown at home in OT.

At that point it seemed like we still had hope for hovering around .500 in conference.  We started 2-2 in Big East, lost two close road games to X and SJU, we even led by about 9 at half @ X.  I thought if we get that Georgetown game, we're 3-4, things are still OK, and we'll have beaten a good team.  That was the tipping point for my hopes.  You knew at 2-5, we were playing out the string at that point.

[HutchwasClutch]

I officially gave up hope after the Gtown close loss at home, but you could tell things were bad right from the beginning.

Same here, but I was very encouraged when they went down to Disney and took 2 of 3 against teams from power conferences, with the loss being a competitive one against MSU.  And we knew Luke was going to arrive soon at that point.  Although we didn't know two would be exiting as well.   

[brewcity77]

I agree with this, Georgetown at home in OT.

That three-game home stand was such a draining week. We went from a winning record with a chance to go above .500 in conference if we could win three at home to a losing record. Two games we lose leads and then the game in overtime, the other we just get humiliated at home. Before that, I felt the NIT was definitely possible and if we swept the three at home, an at-large bid wasn't completely out of the question. Instead we lose all three, then a few days later lose Carlino to injury.

I'll still maintain the season is not over. Do I think we will four in four days? No. Not at all. But I also don't think there's anyone outside maybe Villanova that we can't beat on a given night. We played too close to these teams for me to think it's impossible that we win one game. Maybe beat DePaul a couple times, then beat whomever comes after that, then see what happens in the game after that (and the game after that).

So I just ran the numbers. Beat DePaul, DePaul, Georgetown, Providence, Villanova. That'd give us a 16-18 record, 102 RPI, and 25 SOS. What seed would we get? I have to imagine it'd be a 15, but if favorites won the conference tourneys, a 16 isn't impossible. Would be kind of funny, though. Anyone up for Wojo and Marquette springing the 1/16 upset over Duke?