Hiroshima

[dgies9156]

Someone brought up the question we faced a couple of years ago -- Hiroshima!

Hiroshima at the time was defined as a complete nuclear explosion of our program. It was believed that the moment the bomb dropped was the day the Hillbilly would leave. Keep in mind that at the time we had Hiroshima discussions, Oklahoma reportedly was interested in the Hillbilly.

Well, the Hillbilly left and now we're in a new world. I'm curious how many posters and legacy Scoopers believe we have faced a Hiroshima, are enthused about the future or… well.. whatever.

Rising up, by the way, is defined as the program being on the rise and that Wojo has things in hand. The rest should be fairly obvious. Nuclear winter, for you newbies, is a repeat of the Dukiet era.

[JakeBarnes]

[ChicosBailBonds]

Someone brought up the question we faced a couple of years ago -- Hiroshima!

Hiroshima at the time was defined as a complete nuclear explosion of our program. It was believed that the moment the bomb dropped was the day the Hillbilly would leave. Keep in mind that at the time we had Hiroshima discussions, Oklahoma reportedly was interested in the Hillbilly.

Well, the Hillbilly left and now we're in a new world. I'm curious how many posters and legacy Scoopers believe we have faced a Hiroshima, are enthused about the future or… well.. whatever.

Rising up, by the way, is defined as the program being on the rise and that Wojo has things in hand. The rest should be fairly obvious. Nuclear winter, for you newbies, is a repeat of the Dukiet era.

Not even close IMO.

Hiroshima was defined as silly contrived nonsense about not making Buzz king of Neptune.  That God forbid student athletes would have to live...gasp...with other students.....like what is happening at IU this year (killing their program), or Duke, or Stanford, or Notre Dame....killing those programs.  That was just one of a number of examples...how recruiting was going to fall off the face of the cliff, which of course didn't happen.

There was so much silliness in that thread and the ones that followed it.

We are where we are right now because the previous GM did not do a good job of evaluating talent at the most important spots, one primma donna left early and would be in the NBA now if he hadn't, and even the talent that is solid is playing out of position or without depth....again...GM.   

[GGGG]

Not even close IMO.

Hiroshima was defined as silly contrived nonsense about not making Buzz king of Neptune.  That God forbid student athletes would have to live...gasp...with other students.....like what is happening at IU this year (killing their program), or Duke, or Stanford, or Notre Dame....killing those programs.  That was just one of a number of examples...how recruiting was going to fall off the face of the cliff, which of course didn't happen.

That's not was Hiroshima was about. 

It was about what would happen on this board when we would find out that academic standards were being changed on the student-athletes part way through their tenure at MU.

[JTBMU7]

That's not was Hiroshima was about. 

It was about what would happen on this board when we would find out that academic standards were being changed on the student-athletes part way through their tenure at MU.

yes, that is where it started. but it has taken on many alternate forms since then...

[Galway Eagle]

Not even close IMO.

Hiroshima was defined as silly contrived nonsense about not making Buzz king of Neptune.  That God forbid student athletes would have to live...gasp...with other students.....like what is happening at IU this year (killing their program), or Duke, or Stanford, or Notre Dame....killing those programs.  That was just one of a number of examples...how recruiting was going to fall off the face of the cliff, which of course didn't happen.

There was so much silliness in that thread and the ones that followed it.

We are where we are right now because the previous GM did not do a good job of evaluating talent at the most important spots, one primma donna left early and would be in the NBA now if he hadn't, and even the talent that is solid is playing out of position or without depth....again...GM.   

In all fairness I'm sure that the athletes at those schools are living in better than Carpenter not saying they should go back to apartments but carpenter? yeesh

[Hubert Davis]

We are most definitely currently facing/experiencing "Hiroshima".

[mreezybreezy]

Anytime I see "Hiroshima" on this board I know that there is an absolute trainwreck of a thread that will follow. I assume this particular instance will not disappoint our historic trend of trainwreckery.

[ChicosBailBonds]

In all fairness I'm sure that the athletes at those schools are living in better than Carpenter not saying they should go back to apartments but carpenter? yeesh

Has it prevented us from landing two highly regarded recruiting classes (at least on paper)?  Perhaps stud PGs need cushier quarters, but the point is it hasn't impacted recruiting at all.

What I never understood about Buzz was his comments about the chip on the shoulder, the kids eating McDonald's every day, taking the bus to games, the whole Junior College thing and how this made them better players, hungrier, willing to work harder, etc....then out of the other side of his mouth he wanted the Taj Majal at MU or he couldn't recruit (or his claim).  Which is it and which one fits his supposed philosophy?

[dgies9156]

Anytime I see "Hiroshima" on this board I know that there is an absolute trainwreck of a thread that will follow. I assume this particular instance will not disappoint our historic trend of trainwreckery.

So far, not the case. Most of the early returns favor "rising up."

[hairy worthen]

Has it prevented us from landing two highly regarded recruiting classes (at least on paper)?  Perhaps stud PGs need cushier quarters, but the point is it hasn't impacted recruiting at all.

What I never understood about Buzz was his comments about the chip on the shoulder, the kids eating McDonald's every day, taking the bus to games, the whole Junior College thing and how this made them better players, hungrier, willing to work harder, etc....then out of the other side of his mouth he wanted the Taj Majal at MU or he couldn't recruit (or his claim).  Which is it and which one fits his supposed philosophy?

Well, turns out a lot of things about buzz's shtick didn’t square with reality. Start with that gaudy mansion he lived in.

[Galway Eagle]

Has it prevented us from landing two highly regarded recruiting classes (at least on paper)?  Perhaps stud PGs need cushier quarters, but the point is it hasn't impacted recruiting at all.

What I never understood about Buzz was his comments about the chip on the shoulder, the kids eating McDonald's every day, taking the bus to games, the whole Junior College thing and how this made them better players, hungrier, willing to work harder, etc....then out of the other side of his mouth he wanted the Taj Majal at MU or he couldn't recruit (or his claim).  Which is it and which one fits his supposed philosophy?

Oh no it hasn't that's for sure, but I'm just saying if I was a recruit I'd be a little peeved I got stuck in Carpenter instead of McCabe, Mashuda, or Straz (nicer places). The only thing that Carpenter has going for it is the easy access to Cobeen which I'm sure they don't complain about. 

Regaurding Buzz I don't know and quite frankly don't care, he's gone. I liked the rags to the top story of a lot of our guys then and I'm sure I'll like the more typical stories we'll see of our guys now either way as long as we're winning and having no drama that is beyond typical college stuff. 

[GoldenWarrior11]

Over the past few weeks, it appears that the follow individuals have (at one point or another) been criticized for this season's struggles. Whether it's Buzz Williams, Steve Wojciechowski, Derrick Wilson, Matt Carlino, Steve Taylor, JaJuan Johnson, Duane Wilson, Luke Fischer, Sandy Cohen, Juan Anderson, Deonte Burton, Jameel McKay, Todd Mayo, John Dawson or even Nick Noskowiak, I would like to throw out a new target for all of us to vent our frustrations at:

Michael and Matthew Mache!!!  Couldn't we at least have recruited triplets as walk-ons???!!!!  Lord knows we need all the available bodies we can get!

JK, Mache brothers.  Your guys' celebrations and enthusiasm on the bench is one of the lone bright spots from this year.  Keep up the excellent cheering, fellas!

[mu03eng]

Oh no it hasn't that's for sure, but I'm just saying if I was a recruit I'd be a little peeved I got stuck in Carpenter instead of McCabe, Mashuda, or Straz (nicer places). The only thing that Carpenter has going for it is the easy access to Cobeen which I'm sure they don't complain about. 

Regaurding Buzz I don't know and quite frankly don't care, he's gone. I liked the rags to the top story of a lot of our guys then and I'm sure I'll like the more typical stories we'll see of our guys now either way as long as we're winning and having no drama that is beyond typical college stuff. 

Depends at point of the year we're talking

[Blackhat]

Hiroshima is history.

We're experiencing Nagasaki now.

Painful.

[tower912]

Oh no it hasn't that's for sure, but I'm just saying if I was a recruit I'd be a little peeved I got stuck in Carpenter instead of McCabe, Mashuda, or Straz (nicer places). The only thing that Carpenter has going for it is the easy access to Cobeen which I'm sure they don't complain about. 

Regaurding Buzz I don't know and quite frankly don't care, he's gone. I liked the rags to the top story of a lot of our guys then and I'm sure I'll like the more typical stories we'll see of our guys now either way as long as we're winning and having no drama that is beyond typical college stuff. 

Maybe Carpenter hasn't been maintained over the last 28 years, but I loved the size of the rooms, the closet space, the private bathroom, the proximity to Johnston hall.   

[Newsdreams]

Nothing happening. Nothing is official until the it's happening GIF is posted

[MU82]

Hiroshima '15 would be Henry backing out on his NLI and joining Stone at UW.

Comparatively, anything else is a fart.

[willie warrior]

Hiroshima '15 would be Henry backing out on his NLI and joining Stone at UW.

Comparatively, anything else is a fart.

Yes everything else is a fart, like this season, and....Buzz Williams.

[bilsu]

First losing record in 14/15 years and attendance is way down. The falling attendance worries me more than the losing record. I just do not see the seats getting filled again with the home games being on TV. I do not know, but I am guessing the decline in attendance is costing MU $50,000 a game. That is serious money that will eventually result in less spending.
I will be very interested to see the Ellenson effect on next year's attendance.

[4everwarriors]

Hiroshima '15 would be Henry backing out on his NLI and joining Stone at UW.

Comparatively, anything else is a fart.

Thank you Ron Wolf, hey?

[Galway Eagle]

First losing record in 14/15 years and attendance is way down. The falling attendance worries me more than the losing record. I just do not see the seats getting filled again with the home games being on TV. I do not know, but I am guessing the decline in attendance is costing MU $50,000 a game. That is serious money that will eventually result in less spending.
I will be very interested to see the Ellenson effect on next year's attendance.

It'll be a quick short term gain unless we can show we have improved tremendously

[Goose]

I am all in on Wojo, but we are at critical time in program history. Little wiggle room for additional setbacks at this point. Two painful season, each different, in a row is a reason for concern. At this point Wojo has all the tools needed to get the job done and hoping he is up to challenge.

Truthfully, until 4ever sounds the alarm I am not panicking. Next guy up is sound thought process provided there is a next guy to be up. At this moment I would not want to be Wojo. KO had luxury of coming here at the bottom and Wojo may be creating a new bottom. Have my fingers crossed and hoping for the best.

[Blackhat]

I recall people intimating that any coach can win here, Buzz is dispensable, it's the program that is top notch.    Well I hope like heck that is true now because we're going to find out.   

Buzz must have been pretty damn insufferable to cut bait

[Dr. Blackheart]

Let's see, I can quickly count about 20 dead bodies from Hiroshima and perhaps counting, either from a direct hit, fall out, or the clean up effort. I would say it was pretty real.

[Goose]

IMO buzz was a goner at least two years ago. If not for E8 run he was gone a year prior. Handwriting was on the wall regarding his time at MU and we have lost a couple of seasons because of it. He checked out well before leaving and we are paying for that. Long term, as long as money and school wants big time ball we are in good shape. If they are happy being SLU:), a different story.

[Blackhat]

Let's see, I can quickly count about 20 dead bodies from Hiroshima and perhaps counting, either from a direct hit, fall out, or the clean up effort. I would say it was pretty real.

[WarriorFan]

Not Hiroshima.  Feeling more like Beirut.

[ChicosBailBonds]

That's not was Hiroshima was about.  

It was about what would happen on this board when we would find out that academic standards were being changed on the student-athletes part way through their tenure at MU.

It had many many levels to it, I was pretty clear in my example that I said that was just ONE of the things that came about from that nonsensical thread.  It was ultimately about letting Buzz due whatever the hell he wanted to and the university clamping down....God forbid.

[4everwarriors]

Not Hiroshima.  Feeling more like Beirut.

Chernobyl, hey?

[3Mer]

Too early to tell.  Depends on what Wojo does with the 4 scholarships at his disposal.

[willie warrior]

Has it prevented us from landing two highly regarded recruiting classes (at least on paper)?  Perhaps stud PGs need cushier quarters, but the point is it hasn't impacted recruiting at all.

What I never understood about Buzz was his comments about the chip on the shoulder, the kids eating McDonald's every day, taking the bus to games, the whole Junior College thing and how this made them better players, hungrier, willing to work harder, etc....then out of the other side of his mouth he wanted the Taj Majal at MU or he couldn't recruit (or his claim).  Which is it and which one fits his supposed philosophy?

Take those comments as they really were: Phony cowboy BS.

[Golden Avalanche]

Let's see, I can quickly count about 20 dead bodies from Hiroshima and perhaps counting, either from a direct hit, fall out, or the clean up effort. I would say it was pretty real.

Is it really counting if you don't write them down?

[Golden Avalanche]

IMO buzz was a goner at least two years ago. If not for E8 run he was gone a year prior. Handwriting was on the wall regarding his time at MU and we have lost a couple of seasons because of it. He checked out well before leaving and we are paying for that. Long term, as long as money and school wants big time ball we are in good shape. If they are happy being SLU:), a different story.

So, you're writing that with two Sweet 16 runs in his first four years Buzz would have been fired even if he "only" accomplished a third run in five years? Boy, that would have really set alarm bells ringing in the coaching world.

[hairy worthen]

So, you're writing that with two Sweet 16 runs in his first four years Buzz would have been fired even if he "only" accomplished a third run in five years? Boy, that would have really set alarm bells ringing in the coaching world.

I have no inside info, but I think the administration was fed up with Buzz and his ways. It wasn't about wins and tournament success.  It was a conflict of philosophies about the direction of the program.

[tower912]

So....he stayed until they didn't want him anymore. 

[hairy worthen]

So....he stayed until they didn't want him anymore. 

guess he told the truth on that one. I am speculating, Goose would probably know for sure.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Big picture, Buzz LOVES "Us vs Them". He lives his entire life like that.

Now, in the short-term, it can work fine.

However, in the long-run, it can be frustrating for the guys writing his checks if he's constantly creating/fostering an adversarial relationship with the MU admin.

[Dawson Rental]

I recall people intimating that any coach can win here, Buzz is dispensable, it's the program that is top notch.    Well I hope like heck that is true now because we're going to find out.   

Buzz must have been pretty damn insufferable to cut bait

He was, and he knew it.  That's why he didn't leave until he could get a contract that would allow him to have his new school by the balls.

[Dawson Rental]

IMO buzz was a goner at least two years ago. If not for E8 run he was gone a year prior. Handwriting was on the wall regarding his time at MU and we have lost a couple of seasons because of it. He checked out well before leaving and we are paying for that. Long term, as long as money and school wants big time ball we are in good shape. If they are happy being SLU:), a different story.

I believe that "happy being SLU" guys are included in Dr. Blackheart's body count.

[Lennys Tap]

Big picture, Buzz LOVES "Us vs Them". He lives his entire life like that.

Now, in the short-term, it can work fine.

However, in the long-run, it can be frustrating for the guys writing his checks if he's constantly creating/fostering an adversarial relationship with the MU admin.

Buzz does love "Us vs Them" and as long as "Them" was Syracuse, Louisville, UCONN, etc., he was happy. He got along splendidly with Cottingham and Fr Wild, didn't "create" or "foster" an adversarial relationship with either. Once Pilarz, LW and their vision arrived things went downhill rapidly. Even their firing couldn't put things back together again.

[willie warrior]

Buzz does love "Us vs Them" and as long as "Them" was Syracuse, Louisville, UCONN, etc., he was happy. He got along splendidly with Cottingham and Fr Wild, didn't "create" or "foster" an adversarial relationship with either. Once Pilarz, LW and their vision arrived things went downhill rapidly. Even their firing couldn't put things back together again.

In Buzz we trust. Loved that mantra. Time to bring it back.

[bilsu]

I have no inside info, but I think the administration was fed up with Buzz and his ways. It wasn't about wins and tournament success.  It was a conflict of philosophies about the direction of the program.

Cincinnati being fed up with Huggins has not worked out so well either.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Buzz does love "Us vs Them" and as long as "Them" was Syracuse, Louisville, UCONN, etc., he was happy. He got along splendidly with Cottingham and Fr Wild, didn't "create" or "foster" an adversarial relationship with either. Once Pilarz, LW and their vision arrived things went downhill rapidly. Even their firing couldn't put things back together again.

I think time is an underrated factor.

When Buzz was new, everything was cool because it was new. No grudges.

As time went by, "stuff" happened (both good and bad, some on the court, some off.), and likely grudges were developed on both sides.

I don't know if its about Cottingham and Fr Wild of if it's just a function of time. Buzz has never let the grass grow under his feet. Not once. Ever.

Now, I'm not absolving MU of responsibility, but I also won't just lay it on their doorstep either. I don't know Buzz personally, but from following the program closely, I can imagine scenarios where he could be very difficult to deal with, and I think he holds grudges (us vs them).

Maybe MU could have and should have done more. Maybe they did do a lot behind closed doors, I dunno. Water under the bridge, I suppose.

[hairy worthen]

Cincinnati being fed up with Huggins has not worked out so well either.

I wouldn't use the word "either"  We don't know yet how this will work out for Marquette.

[Lennys Tap]

I think time is an underrated factor.

When Buzz was new, everything was cool because it was new. No grudges.

As time went by, "stuff" happened (both good and bad, some on the court, some off.), and likely grudges were developed on both sides.

I don't know if its about Cottingham and Fr Wild of if it's just a function of time. Buzz has never let the grass grow under his feet. Not once. Ever.

Now, I'm not absolving MU of responsibility, but I also won't just lay it on their doorstep either. I don't know Buzz personally, but from following the program closely, I can imagine scenarios where he could be very difficult to deal with, and I think he holds grudges (us vs them).

Maybe MU could have and should have done more. Maybe they did do a lot behind closed doors, I dunno. Water under the bridge, I suppose.

Your ascribing Buzz's problems with the administration to "time" rather than personnel makes for an interesting theory but flies in the face of what I've seen publicly and what I've heard privately. Buzz was hired in April 2008. Wild and Cottingham were his bosses. While those two were in charge there was never a hint of a rift. Three years later, just prior to our first Sweet 16 run, a source inside the athletic department told me that Buzz and his family were extremely happy at MU. He even offered an opinion that Buzz might be a Marquette "lifer". June 30th of that same year Cottingham was fired. August 1st, Wild left, replaced by Pilarz. In December, Larry Williams took over as AD. Two months later, my same source told me Buzz was miserable - thought he could very possibly leave after the season. Despite another Sweet 16 and an Elite 8 the die was cast and it was just a matter of time.

That doesn't sound like time eroding the Buzz/MU relationship to me. It sounds personal. Loyalty (at least his perception of it) is of tantamount importance to Buzz. When he felt it was breached at UNO, he left (despite some thinking it was coaching suicide) to become an assistant at MU. When it happened at MU, he left (again committing "career suicide" in many minds) for what he perceived to be a more loyal AD and administration.

So it goes...

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Your ascribing Buzz's problems with the administration to "time" rather than personnel makes for an interesting theory but flies in the face of what I've seen publicly and what I've heard privately. Buzz was hired in April 2008. Wild and Cottingham were his bosses. While those two were in charge there was never a hint of a rift. Three years later, just prior to our first Sweet 16 run, a source inside the athletic department told me that Buzz and his family were extremely happy at MU. He even offered an opinion that Buzz might be a Marquette "lifer". June 30th of that same year Cottingham was fired. August 1st, Wild left, replaced by Pilarz. In December, Larry Williams took over as AD. Two months later, my same source told me Buzz was miserable - thought he could very possibly leave after the season. Despite another Sweet 16 and an Elite 8 the die was cast and it was just a matter of time.

That doesn't sound like time eroding the Buzz/MU relationship to me. It sounds personal. Loyalty (at least his perception of it) is of tantamount importance to Buzz. When he felt it was breached at UNO, he left (despite some thinking it was coaching suicide) to become an assistant at MU. When it happened at MU, he left (again committing "career suicide" in many minds) for what he perceived to be a more loyal AD and administration.

So it goes...

I don't doubt your source, but big picture, here's the thing:

Buzz felt slighted at UNO after (insert amount of time)
Buzz felt slighted at MU after (insert amount of time)

Buzz was never an assistant at any school for very long. He always left for another gig.  He's never going to be a "lifer" anywhere. It's not who he is. Never has been.

Again, I'm not saying MU is perfect, but I also think Buzz is just "us" vs "them" guy. He's always looking for an edge. Not surprising that given enough time, he finds reasons to have an edge.

We'll see what happens at VTech.

[tower912]

Nothing contradictory in your assessments.    He was happy.   Things changed.   His wanderlust took over.

[Lennys Tap]

I don't doubt your source, but big picture, here's the thing:

Buzz felt slighted at UNO after (insert amount of time)
Buzz felt slighted at MU after (insert amount of time)

Agree to disagree. Buzz did not "feel slighted after a period of time" at UNO. He left almost immediately (for a lesser job and at his career's peril) because he felt he had been lied to. His first 3+ years at MU there was no wanderlust. He loved working for/with Cottingham and Wild. His unhappiness when they were replaced had nothing to do with time at MU and everything to do with his almost immediate poor working relationship with his new supervisors.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Agree to disagree. Buzz did not "feel slighted after a period of time" at UNO. He left almost immediately (for a lesser job and at his career's peril) because he felt he had been lied to. His first 3+ years at MU there was no wanderlust. He loved working for/with Cottingham and Wild. His unhappiness when they were replaced had nothing to do with time at MU and everything to do with his almost immediate poor working relationship with his new supervisors.

I don't disagree with what you are saying, I'm just thinking bigger picture. Even if Fr. Wild and Cottingham remained in charge, I'm not so sure the relationship would be perfect forever.

MU could certainly have done a better job of maintaining the relationship, but there is little doubt in my mind that Buzz can be difficult to deal with. It's just built into his nature. He never forgets, and he uses it all to maximize his output (and his team's output).

He attacked MU's own color guy over a perceived slight. After MU made the elite 8, he didn't celebrate with a "we did it!", he celebrated with a speech about how "nobody thought we could do it".

I think Buzz is a good coach, so my opinions are not some sort of commentary on his abilities (he'll do well at V. Tech). I just think that he's a guy who is always searching. Searching for an edge. Searching for something to use. Eventually, he's always going to find it.

[Lennys Tap]

I don't disagree with what you are saying, I'm just thinking bigger picture. Even if Fr. Wild and Cottingham remained in charge, I'm not so sure the relationship would be perfect forever.

MU could certainly have done a better job of maintaining the relationship, but there is little doubt in my mind that Buzz can be difficult to deal with. It's just built into his nature. He never forgets, and he uses it all to maximize his output (and his team's output).

He attacked MU's own color guy over a perceived slight. After MU made the elite 8, he didn't celebrate with a "we did it!", he celebrated with a speech about how "nobody thought we could do it".

I think Buzz is a good coach, so my opinions are not some sort of commentary on his abilities (he'll do well at V. Tech). I just think that he's a guy who is always searching. Searching for an edge. Searching for something to use. Eventually, he's always going to find it.

No disagreement with this, Guns

[MU82]

I don't doubt your source, but big picture, here's the thing:

Buzz felt slighted at UNO after (insert amount of time)
Buzz felt slighted at MU after (insert amount of time)

Buzz was never an assistant at any school for very long. He always left for another gig.  He's never going to be a "lifer" anywhere. It's not who he is. Never has been.

Again, I'm not saying MU is perfect, but I also think Buzz is just "us" vs "them" guy. He's always looking for an edge. Not surprising that given enough time, he finds reasons to have an edge.

We'll see what happens at VTech.

Agree completely.

Buzz might be one of those Lon Kruger/Larry Brown/etc types who can't stay in one place for long.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Cincinnati being fed up with Huggins has not worked out so well either.

Huggins brought some good exposure for Cincinnati and some horrible exposure for Cincinnati.  The school chose not to have the inmates running the asylum.  Now, whether they made the right hire to replace Huggins is another story, plus factor in their conference situation, which was going to happen whether Huggins was there or not.