OT: Vadger football putting on quite a show.

[Groin_pull]

Finally playing a decent team and we see the results. Love it.

[Nukem2]

Finally playing a decent team and we see the results. Love it.

Those Big 10/11/12/14 divisions are lopsided.  They really need to revisit that.

[4everwarriors]

Bfin', hey?

[brewcity77]

So...does UW-Madison get shares for Ohio State making the playoff, like in the NCAAs? That's the only way 59-0 makes sense, I mean how does a team get to their title game and roll over like a well trained dog?

[GGGG]

So...does UW-Madison get shares for Ohio State making the playoff, like in the NCAAs? That's the only way 59-0 makes sense, I mean how does a team get to their title game and roll over like a well trained dog?

Did you watch it?

[Atticus]

So...does UW-Madison get shares for Ohio State making the playoff, like in the NCAAs? That's the only way 59-0 makes sense, I mean how does a team get to their title game and roll over like a well trained dog?

I've traveled to two different cities today and both sports talk shows both asked if Wisky laid down on purpose. I don't know...I haven't watched OSU or UW enough to form an opinion. What I do know is that the Big10 will make millions of dollars with OSU in the playoff, regardless of how many points Bama slaps them with.

Personally, I don't care that a B12 team got screwed. They played it safe by not having a championship game. It came back to bite them...as it should have. Every fan across the planet knew any B12 team would have a weak resume because they are....stubborn....and thought they had the arrogance to qualify with a championship game. Oops. Bit$h slap. Suck it. I guess I just hate that OSU is the recipient of the B12's ineptitude.

[Groin_pull]

So...does UW-Madison get shares for Ohio State making the playoff, like in the NCAAs? That's the only way 59-0 makes sense, I mean how does a team get to their title game and roll over like a well trained dog?

Not a shock. The Vadgers are a crap team that has played no one all season. Fattened up on conference bottom feeders and got rolled by a decent team.

[jesmu84]

I've traveled to two different cities today and both sports talk shows both asked if Wisky laid down on purpose. I don't know...I haven't watched OSU or UW enough to form an opinion. What I do know is that the Big10 will make millions of dollars with OSU in the playoff, regardless of how many points Bama slaps them with.

Personally, I don't care that a B12 team got screwed. They played it safe by not having a championship game. It came back to bite them...as it should have. Every fan across the planet knew any B12 team would have a weak resume because they are....stubborn....and thought they had the arrogance to qualify with a championship game. Oops. Bit$h slap. Suck it. I guess I just hate that OSU is the recipient of the B12's ineptitude.

As far as I understand it, they can't have a championship game with only 10 teams in conference.

[Atticus]

As far as I understand it, they can't have a championship game with only 10 teams in conference.

Of course the can't. A waiver has never been awarded for it. The B12 chose to take their big money and divide it by 10 teams instead of 12. As a result, they are upset that TCU didn't mkae it into the playoff. Funny. Every conference hosted a championship except them and now the don't like that they aren't getting the money? It was money that made them decide not to expand to 12 in the first place!!!!

[jesmu84]

Of course the can't. A waiver has never been awarded for it. The B12 chose to take their big money and divide it by 10 teams instead of 12. As a result, they are upset that TCU didn't mkae it into the playoff. Funny. Every conference hosted a championship except them and now the don't like that they aren't getting the money? It was money that made them decide not to expand to 12 in the first place!!!!

Fair point. But the "best" 4 teams were supposed to be in the playoff. TCU and Baylor are both better and have a better body of work  than OSU.

[Groin_pull]

As far as I understand it, they can't have a championship game with only 10 teams in conference.

Says who? The NCAA? The same organization that bows down to the Power Five?

[muwarrior69]

Fair point. But the "best" 4 teams were supposed to be in the playoff. TCU and Baylor are both better and have a better body of work  than OSU.

TCU and Baylor won't draw the same number of viewers as tOSU. Has nothing to do with which teams are better. There are no cinderellas in college football.

[GGGG]

Fair point. But the "best" 4 teams were supposed to be in the playoff. TCU and Baylor are both better and have a better body of work  than OSU.

All three had identical records and OSU had the best strength of schedule. 

[VegasWarrior77]

Wiscy opens as 7 point underdogs to Auburn.

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

It feels like TCU and Baylor cancelled each other out.  The committee couldn't decide between co-champs, even though one of them won head to head.  Also, TCU played a nobody while FSU, Baylor, and Ohio St each played a top 15 opponent.  All three won and jumped TCU who fell victim to the schedule.

I always thought the whole weekly ranking announcement was worthless, and with TCU dropping the last week I'll say I was right.  The only ranking that matters is the final one.  Imagine the selection committee announcing the NCAA Tourney bracket each week from now up until Selection Sunday.  How much would the weekly bracket matter? Zippo.  But in football weekly rankings are king and the addicts tune in every week.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

TCU and Baylor getting "snubbed" may galvanize the Big 12 into expanding. They need a championship game to give their teams the extra boost into the playoffs. Who they would take, I have no idea. Cincinnati? BYU? Houston? Tulane? Boise State? Colorado State?  but the realignment carousel could be spinning again soon. Whatever the out come its probably not good for the AAC.

[Lennys Tap]

Ohio State may be deserving of the 4th slot. And Florida State the 3rd (though they've done it with mirrors all year). But how in the wide, wide world of sports does a team win 55-6 (could have gone for 62 but for a kneel down) and DROP 2 slots? If they were really 3rd going in they should have stayed there.

[Groin_pull]

TCU and Baylor won't draw the same number of viewers as tOSU. Has nothing to do with which teams are better. There are no cinderellas in college football.

There you go. 100% correct. College football doesn't give a damn about fairness. They care about making money and drawing fans. While the Big 10 is garbage, it's teams draw fans...and their money. That's all that matters in NCAA world.

[GGGG]

There you go. 100% correct. College football doesn't give a damn about fairness. They care about making money and drawing fans. While the Big 10 is garbage, it's teams draw fans...and their money. That's all that matters in NCAA world.

Again, you are completely ignoring basic facts.  Ohio State had a better strength of schedule than TCU or Baylor.

On what basis do you think the other two were more deserving?

[mu03eng]

Of course the can't. A waiver has never been awarded for it. The B12 chose to take their big money and divide it by 10 teams instead of 12. As a result, they are upset that TCU didn't mkae it into the playoff. Funny. Every conference hosted a championship except them and now the don't like that they aren't getting the money? It was money that made them decide not to expand to 12 in the first place!!!!

The narrative totally changes though if OSU craps the bed against Wisconsin or if GT knocks off FSU.

The whole point of the committee was to eliminate the whole who lost last thing, but if FSU loses in the conference championship, is there any way they are in?  Their strength of schedule would be better than TCU and Baylor with the same record, but who would put FSU in at that point.

If that had happened, B12 looks like geniuses for not scheduling the championship risk.


Just go to 8 teams and we never have to worry about this again.

[wadesworld]

Again, you are completely ignoring basic facts.  Ohio State had a better strength of schedule than TCU or Baylor.

On what basis do you think the other two were more deserving?

The fact that Ohio State's only loss came at home by 14 to a 6-6 team who went 3-5 in an awful conference while TCU's only loss was to the #5 team in the country on the road by 3...

[warriorbill]

Again, you are completely ignoring basic facts.  Ohio State had a better strength of schedule than TCU or Baylor.

On what basis do you think the other two were more deserving?

You are 100% correct. TCU & Baylor were penalized for not having a conference championship and playing a pathetic non-conference schedule. They have no one to blame but themselves. Despite OSU's bad loss (the 2nd game of the season with a very inexperienced QB by the way), their resume is still far better than TCU or Baylor.

I actually was at the game. I don't believe for a moment that Wisconsin laid down. Ohio State just thoroughly dominated them from start to finish. Some very shocked Bucky fans in Indy. I live in Cincy and they are hot on the talk now of UC going to the Big 12.

[MUDPT]

Again, you are completely ignoring basic facts.  Ohio State had a better strength of schedule than TCU or Baylor.

On what basis do you think the other two were more deserving?

Whose SOS were they using?  Sagarin had TCU with a better schedule. OSU was better than Baylor's.

[GGGG]

The fact that Ohio State's only loss came at home by 14 to a 6-6 team who went 3-5 in an awful conference while TCU's only loss was to the #5 team in the country on the road by 3...

But that is taken care of in the strength of schedule calculation.  You can't simply look at who had the "best loss" without taking into consideration who had the better victories.

For instance, TCU had two victories over opponents currently in the top 25 (KSU, Minnestota).  OSU had three (MSU, UW, Minnesota).  

[GGGG]

Whose SOS were they using?  Sagarin had TCU with a better schedule. OSU was better than Baylor's.

I don't know which one they were using.  I pulled it off of ESPN last night.

[Groin_pull]

You are 100% correct. TCU & Baylor were penalized for not having a conference championship and playing a pathetic non-conference schedule. They have no one to blame but themselves. Despite OSU's bad loss (the 2nd game of the season with a very inexperienced QB by the way), their resume is still far better than TCU or Baylor.

I actually was at the game. I don't believe for a moment that Wisconsin laid down. Ohio State just thoroughly dominated them from start to finish. Some very shocked Bucky fans in Indy. I live in Cincy and they are hot on the talk now of UC going to the Big 12.

Why would anyone assume the Vadgers "laid down?" They simply aren't that damn good. They beat no one all year. They lost to mediocre LSU and lousy Northwestern. They fattened up on the numerous Big 10 bottom feeders...and got destroyed by a solid—but not spectacular—Ohio State.

[warriorbill]

Why would anyone assume the Vadgers "laid down?" They simply aren't that damn good. They beat no one all year. They lost to mediocre LSU and lousy Northwestern. They fattened up on the numerous Big 10 bottom feeders...and got destroyed by a solid—but not spectacular—Ohio State.

I won't compare the Big 10 to the SEC, but the conference is not that bad. Wisconsin has maybe the best running back in the country and a good defense. We'll see what they do against Auburn. Ohio State was just in a zone unlike anything I have seen before and it snowballed. I honestly believe OSU would crush either TCU or Baylor. The conference that is really overrated is the Big 12.

[wadesworld]

I won't compare the Big 10 to the SEC, but the conference is not that bad. Wisconsin has maybe the best running back in the country and a good defense. We'll see what they do against Auburn. Ohio State was just in a zone unlike anything I have seen before and it snowballed. I honestly believe OSU would crush either TCU or Baylor. The conference that is really overrated is the Big 12.

Look at the B1G's non-conference results.  Ohio State beats Cinci (woo hoo!) and gets beat pretty badly by Virginia Tech.  Michigan State beats nobody and gets stomped by Oregon.  Maryland beats South Florida (woo hoo!) and Syracuse (woo hoo!) and loses to West Virginia (0-1 against the Big 12).  Rutgers beats Washington State (woo hoo!).  Michigan loses to Notre Dame and Utah.  Penn State beat UCF (woo hoo!).  Indiana beat Mizzou (hey, a good win for the B1G!) and lost to Bowling Green.  Wisconsin beat South Florida (woo hoo!) and lost to LSU.  Minnesota lost to TCU (0-2 against the Big 12 for the conference).  Nebraska beat Miami (Woo hoo!  6-6, 3-5 in the ACC!) and Fresno State (woo hoo!).  Iowa beat Pitt (woo hoo!) and lost to Iowa State (0-3 against the Big 12 for the B1G).  Illinois lost to Washington.  Northwestern lost to Cal and Northern Illinois.  Purdue lost to Notre Dame and Central Michigan.

The B1G got ONE win in non-conference between their FOURTEEN members that I would consider quality.  They also went 0-3 against Big 12 teams.

[Groin_pull]

Look at the B1G's non-conference results.  Ohio State beats Cinci (woo hoo!) and gets beat pretty badly by Virginia Tech.  Michigan State beats nobody and gets stomped by Oregon.  Maryland beats South Florida (woo hoo!) and Syracuse (woo hoo!) and loses to West Virginia (0-1 against the Big 12).  Rutgers beats Washington State (woo hoo!).  Michigan loses to Notre Dame and Utah.  Penn State beat UCF (woo hoo!).  Indiana beat Mizzou (hey, a good win for the B1G!) and lost to Bowling Green.  Wisconsin beat South Florida (woo hoo!) and lost to LSU.  Minnesota lost to TCU (0-2 against the Big 12 for the conference).  Nebraska beat Miami (Woo hoo!  6-6, 3-5 in the ACC!) and Fresno State (woo hoo!).  Iowa beat Pitt (woo hoo!) and lost to Iowa State (0-3 against the Big 12 for the B1G).  Illinois lost to Washington.  Northwestern lost to Cal and Northern Illinois.  Purdue lost to Notre Dame and Central Michigan.

The B1G got ONE win in non-conference between their FOURTEEN members that I would consider quality.  They also went 0-3 against Big 12 teams.

You're wasting your time. Big 10 defenders still think it's 1968. They don't realize their precious conference has been passed by the SEC, Pac-12, and yes, Big 12. And 6-6 VT beat mighty Ohio State, you could say the ACC is better too.

[GooooMarquette]

You're wasting your time. Big 10 defenders still think it's 1968. They don't realize their precious conference has been passed by the SEC, Pac-12, and yes, Big 12. And 6-6 VT beat mighty Ohio State, you could say the ACC is better too.

I agree that the Big Twelethirfourteen is overrated.  The thing that makes me wonder if Becky rolled over is a comparison of their non-conference loss with OSU's.

Becky lost a 4-point game (28-24) on the road to Auburn...a good team that finished 8-4, and 4-4 in the SEC - easily the best conference.

The Spuds lost a two TD game at home to Va Tech...a mediocre team that finished 6-6 overall and 3-5 in the ACC - hardly as good as the SEC.  And they played Becky with a third-string QB starting his first game.

I know comparisons like this are poor predictors of actual outcome...but they would at least seem to indicate that Becky is much much closer to OSU than a 59-point drubbing.

[MUMountin]

Just go to 8 teams and we never have to worry about this again.

Until we start arguing about the 9th team that was unjustly left out.  That debate will always happen, whether we are talking about the third team that was left out of the National Championship team, the 5th team left out of the playoffs, the 65th/66th/69th team left out of the NCAAs--whenever you have a subjective committee making decisions like this, there will be debate about who should have gotten in and who was left out.

That said, I personally like 6 teams--give the champs of each of the P5 a spot, and then the 6th goes to the highest remaining team.  Top two teams get a bye.  Would be easier, lay out a decent path that everyone understands and knows exactly what you need to do to get in.  Provides all of the conferences with a seat at the table, while leaving one extra spot up for grabs, which could also allow for a non-P5 to crash the party.

[GGGG]

You're wasting your time. Big 10 defenders still think it's 1968. They don't realize their precious conference has been passed by the SEC, Pac-12, and yes, Big 12. And 6-6 VT beat mighty Ohio State, you could say the ACC is better too.

I'm not defending the Big Ten.  I am defending the process that selected Ohio State over TCU and Baylor using *objective* criteria.

[wadesworld]

I'm not defending the Big Ten.  I am defending the process that selected Ohio State over TCU and Baylor using *objective* criteria.

I guess I just don't understand how a team that wins by 52 points can fall 3 spots in 1 week. Just doesn't make any sense. How was TCU objectively the 3rd best team in the country 5 days before the final poll came out and then objectively the 6th best team...after a 52 point win. That's absolutely absurd.

[GGGG]

I guess I just don't understand how a team that wins by 52 points can fall 3 spots in 1 week. Just doesn't make any sense. How was TCU objectively the 3rd best team in the country 5 days before the final poll came out and then objectively the 6th best team...after a 52 point win. That's absolutely absurd.

I think the interim polls were dumb for this reason, but here is what happened last weekend:

**TCU beat a bad team that didn't help them at all in Iowa State.
**Oklahoma lost to OSU thus taking a "big win" away
**Ohio State beat a ranked team by 59 points.

OSU got a big boost in its SOS, while TCU got two big set backs.

[Nukem2]

I think the interim polls were dumb for this reason, but here is what happened last weekend:

**TCU beat a bad team that didn't help them at all in Iowa State.
**Oklahoma lost to OSU thus taking a "big win" away
**Ohio State beat a ranked team by 59 points.

OSU got a big boost in its SOS, while TCU got two big set backs.

Actually, 3 setbacks as the committee could not see a Big 12 champ.

[mu_eyeballs]

I live and work in Columbus so take this with a grain of salt.

I see people talk all the time about the NCAAs and how it is not how a team starts but how it finishes and that teams can grow as a season moves on...

The Buckeyes are a much different and more confident team on BOTH sides of the ball, than the team that looked sad, pathetic and weak minded against VA Tech.

[MU B2002]

I think the interim polls were dumb for this reason, but here is what happened last weekend:

**TCU beat a bad team that didn't help them at all in Iowa State.
**Oklahoma lost to OSU thus taking a "big win" away
**Ohio State beat a ranked team by 59 points.

OSU got a big boost in its SOS, while TCU got two big set backs.

Also, doesn't Baylor beating KSU (TCU's marquee win) diminish their strength of schedule as it gave KSU 3 losses.

[Groin_pull]

I guess I just don't understand how a team that wins by 52 points can fall 3 spots in 1 week. Just doesn't make any sense. How was TCU objectively the 3rd best team in the country 5 days before the final poll came out and then objectively the 6th best team...after a 52 point win. That's absolutely absurd.

It does when you realize that Ohio State is a bigger name...brings along more fans...and draws more viewers.

With the NCAA, it's all about money. First, last, and always.

[GooooMarquette]

It does when you realize that Ohio State is a bigger name...brings along more fans...and draws more viewers.

With the NCAA, it's all about money. First, last, and always.

Yep.  Ohio State: 57,466 students and a correspondingly huge alumni base; TCU: 10,033 students and a much smaller alumni base.  And that doesn't even include the K-Mart OSU fans across Ohio.  In Texas, the K-Mart fans aren't cheering for TCU.

Just shocking that OSU would pass up TCU.

[warriorbill]

You're wasting your time. Big 10 defenders still think it's 1968. They don't realize their precious conference has been passed by the SEC, Pac-12, and yes, Big 12. And 6-6 VT beat mighty Ohio State, you could say the ACC is better too.

It's not 1968-it's 2015 and the Big 10 looked pretty good yesterday. Nobody gave them a chance and Ohio State beat the mighty Tide with a third string quarterback. The Buckeyes have a young team and a bright future, and maybe Michigan will become relevant again. Good wins by Bucky & Michigan State also.

[Groin_pull]

It's not 1968-it's 2015 and the Big 10 looked pretty good yesterday. Nobody gave them a chance and Ohio State beat the mighty Tide with a third string quarterback. The Buckeyes have a young team and a bright future, and maybe Michigan will become relevant again. Good wins by Bucky & Michigan State also.

Sure, a lot of breaks went the Big 10's way. I guess the football gods finally smiled on the midwest for one day. It's about time the Big 10 did something to justify its preferred status.

This was a one-year blip for the SEC. They shall return. And my PAC-12 will continue to get stronger. Still see the Big 10 struggling to be the third strongest conference. Yes, OSU, MSU, and the Vadgers are strong, but there are lot of bottom feeders. Purdue, Indiana, Northwestern, Iowa, Rutgers, Maryland, and Illinois just aren't very good.
Plus, the continuing shift in US population works against the Big 10. Fewer people are living in the Rust Belt.

For the most part, the Big 10 puts on a good show on game day. Impressive attendance. And since most member institutions are huge state schools, they'll always have a reliable fan base. The Big 10 won't disappear, but I don't see it ever recapturing its past glory.

[LAZER]

Sure, a lot of breaks went the Big 10's way. I guess the football gods finally smiled on the midwest for one day. It's about time the Big 10 did something to justify its preferred status.

What do you mean by preferred status?

[GGGG]

Sure, a lot of breaks went the Big 10's way. I guess the football gods finally smiled on the midwest for one day. It's about time the Big 10 did something to justify its preferred status.

This was a one-year blip for the SEC. They shall return. And my PAC-12 will continue to get stronger. Still see the Big 10 struggling to be the third strongest conference. Yes, OSU, MSU, and the Vadgers are strong, but there are lot of bottom feeders. Purdue, Indiana, Northwestern, Iowa, Rutgers, Maryland, and Illinois just aren't very good.
Plus, the continuing shift in US population works against the Big 10. Fewer people are living in the Rust Belt.

For the most part, the Big 10 puts on a good show on game day. Impressive attendance. And since most member institutions are huge state schools, they'll always have a reliable fan base. The Big 10 won't disappear, but I don't see it ever recapturing its past glory.

I agree with most of what you are saying about the B10, EXCEPT the bolded isn't as much of a problem as you think.  More people live north of the Ohio River than south of it - the median center of the US population is in southwest Indiana.  The Big Ten has huge population centers - larger than the SEC.

[Groin_pull]

What do you mean by preferred status?

I mean, because the Big 10 is a conference that travels well and generates ratings, it is given every benefit of the doubt when it comes to weekly rankings and bowl selections.

As I said before, we all know the NCAA is all about generating dollars...and the Big 10 can do that.

[Groin_pull]

I agree with most of what you are saying about the B10, EXCEPT the bolded isn't as much of a problem as you think.  More people live north of the Ohio River than south of it - the median center of the US population is in southwest Indiana.  The Big Ten has huge population centers - larger than the SEC.

You make a good point. I was basing my comment on a list of the fastest growing states...and South Carolina, Florida, Texas, and Georgia were up near the top (as were Utah, Arizona, Colorado, and Washington out in PAC-12 territory).

[warriorbill]

Sure, a lot of breaks went the Big 10's way. I guess the football gods finally smiled on the midwest for one day. It's about time the Big 10 did something to justify its preferred status.

This was a one-year blip for the SEC. They shall return. And my PAC-12 will continue to get stronger. Still see the Big 10 struggling to be the third strongest conference. Yes, OSU, MSU, and the Vadgers are strong, but there are lot of bottom feeders. Purdue, Indiana, Northwestern, Iowa, Rutgers, Maryland, and Illinois just aren't very good.
Plus, the continuing shift in US population works against the Big 10. Fewer people are living in the Rust Belt.

For the most part, the Big 10 puts on a good show on game day. Impressive attendance. And since most member institutions are huge state schools, they'll always have a reliable fan base. The Big 10 won't disappear, but I don't see it ever recapturing its past glory.

I also don't think this is a one year blip for the Big 10. Ohio State is young and getting better and Harbaugh will have Michigan back and relevant again. 

[warriorbill]

I mean, because the Big 10 is a conference that travels well and generates ratings, it is given every benefit of the doubt when it comes to weekly rankings and bowl selections.

As I said before, we all know the NCAA is all about generating dollars...and the Big 10 can do that.

If you want to talk about "preferred status" how about a lot of the SEC teams having so many of the bowl games near or in their stadiums and in their climate. I'd love to see LSU or Florida try playing at Soldier Field in December or January.

[Groin_pull]

I also don't think this is a one year blip for the Big 10. Ohio State is young and getting better and Harbaugh will have Michigan back and relevant again.  

Perhaps. But I believe Harbaugh will not be at UM for long. His ego will not allow him to remain out the the biggest show (the NFL). He's not a schmoozer at all...and he'll need to be to deal with UM's endless alums and big money boosters.  Harbaugh needs to work a room and that is not his thing. Yes, I know Harbaugh coached at USD and Stanford, but those two schools are so casual and laid back about football, that almost doesn't count. Every citizen in Michigan thinks they know better...so he'll be endlessly second guessed. Just my hunch...he's back in the NFL in four years.

[Groin_pull]

If you want to talk about "preferred status" how about a lot of the SEC teams having so many of the bowl games near or in their stadiums and in their climate. I'd love to see LSU or Florida try playing at Soldier Field in December or January.

Hahahahaha. Don't blame the SEC because it's located in a part of the country that's desirable in January.

[warriorbill]

Hahahahaha. Don't blame the SEC because it's located in a part of the country that's desirable in January.

I don't blame them, but clearly preferred status.

[LAZER]

I mean, because the Big 10 is a conference that travels well and generates ratings, it is given every benefit of the doubt when it comes to weekly rankings and bowl selections.

As I said before, we all know the NCAA is all about generating dollars...and the Big 10 can do that.

Well since their preferred status will always be determined by dollars (this goes for any school that has a large fan base) winning or losing will never matter.  I don't think the bowl committees have/will ever be interested in the quality of the teams they select.

[Groin_pull]

Well since their preferred status will always be determined by dollars (this goes for any school that has a large fan base) winning or losing will never matter.  I don't think the bowl committees have/will ever be interested in the quality of the teams they select.

True. It's never been about matching up the best teams...just the teams that can bring in most cash. That's why the Big 10 teams are given the benefit of every doubt. They draw.

[Groin_pull]

I don't blame them, but clearly preferred status.

I guess. But even the Big 10 doesn't want to deal with arctic conditions. Isn't that why they hold their championship game inside a dome—instead of Soldier Field?