tOSU Stats

[Dr. Blackheart]

MU wins 3 out of 4 factors...yet that eFG factor was brutal.  End of the day, MU turned it over less, had more free throws and offensive rebounds, made the same amount of treys...but that 20-8 gap in fast break points was the killer. 

How bad was the defense?  Second highest (worst) eFg% game by opponents since the turn of the century at least (no stats before on opponents). Just brutal. Only one worse was the Creighton stinker in Milwaukee last season.

Duane with a 120 Orating to lead.  JJJ and Burton were bad.


http://statsheet.com/mcb/games/2014/11/18/marquette-63-ohio-state-74

[Henry Sugar]

Stats by the half. As Doc said, the defensive eFG% was brutal. This is your early reminder that eFG% is by far the most important factor. It is at least twice as important as any other factor.

Solid work on the defensive glass. MU's defensive turnover rate was very good. Too bad their offensive turnover rate was crap.

On the player side, #FreeSteveTaylor and Duane were the only net-positive players. Cohen was close.

JJJ went from the best player on the court in the first game to the worst player on the court last night. I joked that my new nickname for him is "f*ck it I'm shooting". Bane had a similar turnaround from net positive to net negative in the two games. I honestly don't take much from either at this point, however.

Still better than last year!

[willie warrior]

MU wins 3 out of 4 factors...yet that eFG factor was brutal.  End of the day, MU turned it over less, had more free throws and offensive rebounds, made the same amount of treys...but that 20-8 gap in fast break points was the killer. 

How bad was the defense?  Second highest (worst) eFg% game by opponents since the turn of the century at least (no stats before on opponents). Just brutal. Only one worse was the Creighton stinker in Milwaukee last season.

Duane with a 120 Orating to lead.  JJJ and Burton were bad.


http://statsheet.com/mcb/games/2014/11/18/marquette-63-ohio-state-74

What--Duane with an Orating of 120 to lead the team? Better explain that to TAMU who continues the love fest for the elight one.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

What--Duane with an Orating of 120 to lead the team? Better explain that to TAMU who continues the love fest for the elight one.

No love fest here. Want Derrick to get between 8-15 minutes.

Duane racked up those stats in garbage time when the game was well in hand. Before that, he was a liability on the court. So the garbage minute stats show that he has some ability, but I put more stock in players who can perform when the game is still winnable.

I also want more time for Duane, off the ball. I like Derrick as a game managing backup PG, just like he was on the elite eight team. Better that that actually, since he can apparently make a three now. Last night, JJJ should have gotten less time in favor of Duane.

[Ellisium]

How bad was the defense?  Second highest (worst) eFg% game by opponents since the turn of the century at least (no stats before on opponents). Just brutal. Only one worse was the Creighton stinker in Milwaukee last season.

http://statsheet.com/mcb/games/2014/11/18/marquette-63-ohio-state-74

I hate to say it, but too many people are sugarcoating this loss thinking that MU is going to make the NCAA tourney.  Sure, people are excited that we just played our first decent opponent, but our defense was absolutely bottom feeder material.  Remember that Ohio St. is a guard oriented team.  This was actually a good thing for Marquette as MU can't match up with teams that play big.  Even then, MU was blown away by not being able to contain the Buckeyes due to poor team defense.  Folks ..... we hadn't played this bad in 14 years and people are thinking we are going to be better than last years team.  I'm sorry, but that's just not going to happen.  Wait until we play a team with bigs that can score.  It's going to be brutal as we will be exposed.  

[BM1090]

I hate to say it, but too many people are sugarcoating this loss thinking that MU is going to make the NCAA tourney.  Sure, people are excited that we just played our first decent opponent, but our defense was absolutely bottom feeder material.  Remember that Ohio St. is a guard oriented team.  This was actually a good thing for Marquette as MU can't match up with teams that play big.  Even then, MU was blown away by not being able to contain the Buckeyes due to poor team defense.  Folks ..... we hadn't played this bad in 14 years and people are thinking we are going to be better than last years team.  I'm sorry, but that's just not going to happen.  Wait until we play a team with bigs that can score.  It's going to be brutal as we will be exposed.  

WE HADN'T PLAYED THIS BAD IN 14 YEARS?!?!?

Just last year we played worse against Southern, Ohio State, New Hampshire, DePaul (x2), @ Creighton, @ St. John's. , @ Villanova. But yeah, apart from the 8 times we played worse last year, and the countless times we played worse in prior year, that was the worst we played for sure

[Ellisium]

WE HADN'T PLAYED THIS BAD IN 14 YEARS?!?!?

Just last year we played worse against Southern, Ohio State, New Hampshire, DePaul (x2), @ Creighton, @ St. John's. , @ Villanova. But yeah, apart from the 8 times we played worse last year, and the countless times we played worse in prior year, that was the worst we played for sure

We let Ohio St. have an effective Offensive Efficiency of almost 75%.  That was the worst in 14 years by a Marquette team.  Unacceptable.

[Henry Sugar]

We let Ohio St. have an effective Offensive Efficiency of almost 75%.  That was the worst in 14 years by a Marquette team.  Unacceptable.

There is literally no other MU fan that cares more about defensive eFG% than me.

Having said that, even I'm not stressed out about last night's defensive eFG% results, for lots of reasons. New coach, start of the season, young team, road game, etc. Now, if it becomes a pattern, then that's a different story.

As bad as the defensive eFG% was last night, MU only gave up 1.09 ppp. There were eleven games worse than that last year alone.

[Silkk the Shaka]

There is literally no other MU fan that cares more about defensive eFG% than me.

Having said that, even I'm not stressed out about last night's defensive eFG% results, for lots of reasons. New coach, start of the season, young team, road game, etc. Now, if it becomes a pattern, then that's a different story.

As bad as the defensive eFG% was last night, MU only gave up 1.09 ppp. There were eleven games worse than that last year alone.

Word. Agreed.

[Henry Sugar]

Something that may only interest me.

Marquette's defensive turnover rate in its first two games this year would rank #5 and #6 among all games last year.

And, its defensive rebounding % would have been the best all year last year

[BM1090]

There is literally no other MU fan that cares more about defensive eFG% than me.

Having said that, even I'm not stressed out about last night's defensive eFG% results, for lots of reasons. New coach, start of the season, young team, road game, etc. Now, if it becomes a pattern, then that's a different story.

As bad as the defensive eFG% was last night, MU only gave up 1.09 ppp. There were eleven games worse than that last year alone.

And I bet half of those 11 were against teams worse than Ohio State.

[Henry Sugar]

And I bet half of those 11 were against teams worse than Ohio State.

most of them were teams worse than OSU. There were also a few wins despite being lousy defensively.

[Ellisium]

There is literally no other MU fan that cares more about defensive eFG% than me.

Having said that, even I'm not stressed out about last night's defensive eFG% results, for lots of reasons. New coach, start of the season, young team, road game, etc. Now, if it becomes a pattern, then that's a different story.

As bad as the defensive eFG% was last night, MU only gave up 1.09 ppp. There were eleven games worse than that last year alone.

I'm not stressed out about the eFG%.  IT's the fact that the attitude here is that this is an NCAA tourney team, of which, this team is not.  This team will be lucky to be .500    Bubble NIT team is the ceiling.  

[madtownwarrior]

Ellisium - let's see what else may happen...

1)  We add a talented a 6'10" player to starting lineup.
2)  Taylor moves back to being a 4
3)  Burton moves back to playing a 3
4)  JJJ, Cohen, Burton, Wilson all gain maturity and improve
5)  Team gains confidence in Wojo's system
6)  Wojo gains experience coaching as head coach

Bet this team plays a bit better as the season goes, but we should just end the season now cause of a bad eFG% last night.

So the eFG% has bad - troubling but it's the statement "IT's the fact that the attitude here is that this is an NCAA tourney team, of which, this team is not"

How the HELL do you know this team is or is not a tourney team after 2 games.  You must be the know it all god of NCAA tourney quality teams.  

There is literally no other MU fan that cares more about defensive eFG% than me.

Having said that, even I'm not stressed out about last night's defensive eFG% results, for lots of reasons. New coach, start of the season, young team, road game, etc. Now, if it becomes a pattern, then that's a different story.

As bad as the defensive eFG% was last night, MU only gave up 1.09 ppp. There were eleven games worse than that last year alone.

[willie warrior]

No love fest here. Want Derrick to get between 8-15 minutes.

Duane racked up those stats in garbage time when the game was well in hand. Before that, he was a liability on the court. So the garbage minute stats show that he has some ability, but I put more stock in players who can perform when the game is still winnable.

I also want more time for Duane, off the ball. I like Derrick as a game managing backup PG, just like he was on the elite eight team. Better that that actually, since he can apparently make a three now. Last night, JJJ should have gotten less time in favor of Duane.

Right--it was all in garbage time--as you say. He was playing, the other players were playing--in fact he was continuing to try, as was Carlino. That, of course means nothing to you, to defend your meaningless statement. Keep downplaying him and denigrating him, because he is proving you wrong. You infer that you put more stock in players who can perform when the game is winnable--like your boy, Derrick. Please!!!!!

[Ellisium]

Ellisium - let's see what else may happen...

1)  We add a talented a 6'10" player to starting lineup.
2)  Taylor moves back to being a 4
3)  Burton moves back to playing a 3
4)  JJJ, Cohen, Burton, Wilson all gain maturity and improve
5)  Team gains confidence in Wojo's system
6)  Wojo gains experience coaching as head coach

Bet this team plays a bit better as the season goes, but we should just end the season now cause of a bad eFG% last night.

So the eFG% has bad - troubling but it's the statement "IT's the fact that the attitude here is that this is an NCAA tourney team, of which, this team is not"

How the HELL do you know this team is or is not a tourney team after 2 games.  You must be the know it all god of NCAA tourney quality teams.  

It doesn't take a God.  Read up on sports, play them, and watch them.  There isn't one analyst who has MU in the field.  Their team doesn't have the bigs to carry them and the talent at guard isn't good enough to balance that flaw out.  Last night's debacle on defense show's that they can't defend guard oriented teams and we all know they'll have a difficult time with oversized teams.  The personnel on this team just isn't that good. 

[Spotcheck Billy]

but if a team picked for 9th in the BEast can go into Columbus and only lose by 11 would that indicate most of the teams picked higher might have won last night? of course not, just like it looks like Kansas is way over-ranked at #5 - its too early for bracketology  - lighten up Francis!

It doesn't take a God.  Read up on sports, play them, and watch them.  There isn't one analyst who has MU in the field.  Their team doesn't have the bigs to carry them and the talent at guard isn't good enough to balance that flaw out.  Last night's debacle on defense show's that they can't defend guard oriented teams and we all know they'll have a difficult time with oversized teams.  The personnel on this team just isn't that good.  

[Henry Sugar]

I'm not stressed out about the eFG%.  IT's the fact that the attitude here is that this is an NCAA tourney team, of which, this team is not.  This team will be lucky to be .500    Bubble NIT team is the ceiling.  

I generally agree with you, but I'm not so definitive in my conclusions this early.

[MU82]

No love fest here. Want Derrick to get between 8-15 minutes.

Duane racked up those stats in garbage time when the game was well in hand. Before that, he was a liability on the court. So the garbage minute stats show that he has some ability, but I put more stock in players who can perform when the game is still winnable.

I also want more time for Duane, off the ball. I like Derrick as a game managing backup PG, just like he was on the elite eight team. Better that that actually, since he can apparently make a three now. Last night, JJJ should have gotten less time in favor of Duane.

Classic example of stats, no matter how supposedly "relevant," being of little use in certain specific cases.

Duane played quite poorly yesterday. Defensively, he was awful in both games. Offensively, just about no impact whatsoever.

I'm not saying he's no good. Heck, I'm not saying that he won't be a first-team All-American someday. And I agree with TAMU that I'd like to see Duane more off the ball (as well as on the ball).

Just saying I don't care how good his eFG% has been, because he obviously has been less than good.

[Ellisium]

but if a team picked for 9th in the BEast can go into Columbus and only lose by 11 would that indicate most of the teams picked higher might have won last night? of course not, just like it looks like Kansas is way over-ranked at #5 - its too early for bracketology  - lighten up Francis!

Did you watch the game?  The final score wasn't indicative of the true nature of the game.  Ohio State made a lot of mistakes and doesn't have a big man that score.  Watch when MU plays Wisconsin.  I guarantee we lose by 15+  Wanna bet?  Or are you the person that sees a number 20 next to ohio state and thinks they're great?  I can tell you this.  Ohio State isn't that great of a team.  They're going to take some lumps in the Big 10 this year, not having a big man down low.  

[BM1090]

It doesn't take a God.  Read up on sports, play them, and watch them.  There isn't one analyst who has MU in the field.  Their team doesn't have the bigs to carry them and the talent at guard isn't good enough to balance that flaw out.  Last night's debacle on defense show's that they can't defend guard oriented teams and we all know they'll have a difficult time with oversized teams.  The personnel on this team just isn't that good. 

Wasn't one analyst who had MU near the field in 2006 or 2010 either.

[BM1090]

Did you watch the game?  The final score wasn't indicative of the true nature of the game.  Ohio State made a lot of mistakes and doesn't have a big man that score.  Watch when MU plays Wisconsin.  I guarantee we lose by 15+  Wanna bet?  Or are you the person that sees a number 20 next to ohio state and thinks they're great?  I can tell you this.  Ohio State isn't that great of a team.  They're going to take some lumps in the Big 10 this year, not having a big man down low.  

We made mistakes too. A bunch of them. Why can we use OSU's mistakes as a reason they didn't blow us out but not use MU's as a reason we should have kept it closer? And OSU will finish top 3 in the Big 10.

[Spotcheck Billy]

Did you watch the game?  The final score wasn't indicative of the true nature of the game.  Ohio State made a lot of mistakes and doesn't have a big man that score.  Watch when MU plays Wisconsin.  I guarantee we lose by 15+  Wanna bet?  Or are you the person that sees a number 20 next to ohio state and thinks they're great?  I can tell you this.  Ohio State isn't that great of a team.  They're going to take some lumps in the Big 10 this year, not having a big man down low. 

OSU has 2 listed at 6'11" and another 6'10". Amir Williams didn't miss a shot last night, I think they will be fine this year and end up ranked higher than they are now.

[mattyv1908]

There is literally no other MU fan that cares more about defensive eFG% than me.

Having said that, even I'm not stressed out about last night's defensive eFG% results, for lots of reasons. New coach, start of the season, young team, road game, etc. Now, if it becomes a pattern, then that's a different story.

As bad as the defensive eFG% was last night, MU only gave up 1.09 ppp. There were eleven games worse than that last year alone.

Don't you think a primary reasons for that was 1)  the unforced tOSU turnovers and 2) lack of fouls called settling for mostly jump shots?

While I agree with you about all your reasons not to worry, if we would have faced a guard oriented team which got into the lane consistantly drawing fouls that 1.09 ppp goes skyrocketing through the roof.

[Lennys Tap]

There is literally no other MU fan that cares more about defensive eFG% than me.

Having said that, even I'm not stressed out about last night's defensive eFG% results, for lots of reasons. New coach, start of the season, young team, road game, etc. Now, if it becomes a pattern, then that's a different story.

As bad as the defensive eFG% was last night, MU only gave up 1.09 ppp. There were eleven games worse than that last year alone.

Henry, you understand the numbers much better than I do, but here is what at least I think I saw: the stats show our eFG% against was really bad both halves but even worse in the first. But what I saw was a defense that was much better in the first half. We forced more TOs and more difficult shots but OSU couldn't miss from 3. I hope it was because we tired, but the second have was one uncontested dunk/layup after another. Their eFG% went down only in the last 3-4 minutes when they slowed things down with a 20 point lead. (3points in their last 7 possessions)

Here's the stat that stands out for me - in the first half OSU shot 7 dunks or layups (made 5). In the second they shot an almost unbelievable 18 dunks or layups (made 14). That's almost one a minute! I'm sure some of it was because we were gassed but it's still a big WOW.

[willie warrior]

Classic example of stats, no matter how supposedly "relevant," being of little use in certain specific cases.

Duane played quite poorly yesterday. Defensively, he was awful in both games. Offensively, just about no impact whatsoever.

I'm not saying he's no good. Heck, I'm not saying that he won't be a first-team All-American someday. And I agree with TAMU that I'd like to see Duane more off the ball (as well as on the ball).

Just saying I don't care how good his eFG% has been, because he obviously has been less than good.

Ditto to the 20th for Derricks's play yesterday. He was awful many times in the past. But you will never say that about him but will for Duane. Ahhh....selective criticism, ain't it great?

[Henry Sugar]

Henry, you understand the numbers much better than I do, but here is what at least I think I saw: the stats show our eFG% against was really bad both halves but even worse in the first. But what I saw was a defense that was much better in the first half. We forced more TOs and more difficult shots but OSU couldn't miss from 3. I hope it was because we tired, but the second have was one uncontested dunk/layup after another. Their eFG% went down only in the last 3-4 minutes when they slowed things down with a 20 point lead. (3points in their last 7 possessions)

Here's the stat that stands out for me - in the first half OSU shot 7 dunks or layups (made 5). In the second they shot an almost unbelievable 18 dunks or layups (made 14). That's almost one a minute! I'm sure some of it was because we were gassed but it's still a big WOW.

Yeah, the defense was much better in the 1H (0.97 ppp for OSU) than the 2H (1.21 ppp).

[GGGG]

How many times did OSU turn the ball over in the first half?  A lot of that wasn't due to good defense, but sloppy play by OSU.

[Pakuni]

I'm not stressed out about the eFG%.  IT's the fact that the attitude here is that this is an NCAA tourney team, of which, this team is not.  This team will be lucky to be .500    Bubble NIT team is the ceiling.  

It might be best not to get stressed out about anything you read here, especially fans having high hopes in early November.

[PGsHeroes32]

Jeez so now the arguments are going to continually be Duane vs Derrick this year?

Its already the same thing as last year. Comparing the talented but raw players(Mayo, Duane, JJJ etcc) vs the far less talented experienced upperclassmen(Jake, Derrick).

Those pro talent refuse to believe that Jake and Derrick had any value

And those that defend them do it through hypocrisy by finding random faults any chance against Duane/Todd/JJJ and boost Derrick for the smallest of things.

Its all never ending.

[tower912]

I'll add to it.   A year ago there was wailing and gnashing of teeth because (fill in the blank) wasn't playing more.   The common response was that they had to play better defense, because the former coach had said that minutes were earned on the defensive end.    This year, (fill in the blank) is getting more minutes, and some are shocked that they are erratic defensively.     At what point did and why did anyone start believing that the guys who were not good defensively last year would suddenly become defensive stoppers in an aggressive, stretched, man to man defense?     
I believe with every fiber of my being that each and every one of them will get better defensively.   But in the end, this is a small, not deep team with few players who have ever been considered even adequate defensively.   It is going to take time but I believe they will get there.   Just expecting it against an upper level B1G team this early in the year is unreasonable. 

[MU82]

Jeez so now the arguments are going to continually be Duane vs Derrick this year?

At least it's not Derrick vs Dawson.

I call that progress!

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Ditto to the 20th for Derricks's play yesterday. He was awful many times in the past. But you will never say that about him but will for Duane. Ahhh....selective criticism, ain't it great?

Well that's because Derrick wasn't awful. He wasn't good. But he wasn't awful. Duane was awful for the first 35 minutes of the game and spectacular for the last 5. Since Carlino seems to have earned (deservingly so IMHO) the starting PG spot, that means we are discussing who are backup PG should be (not something you hear often). For my backup PG, I prefer a game manager who's going to be consistently average than a player who is either going to give you  a great performance, or cause your team to hemorrhage points. If we were talking about the starting PG job, I'd probably want to roll the dice and hope Duane can find some consistency.

In an ideal world, I would have Derrick sub in for Carlino for 5 two minute spans every game. Derrick holds down the fort for very short stints while Carlino gets a quick breather. Duane, JJJ, and Dawson split time at the two depending on who is playing the best that night.

[jesmu84]

Small sample size. Let's wait till we get a few games under our belt to claim this as either the worst MU team ever or an NCAA team.

Flying off the handle either way is disingenuous at best.

[NersEllenson]

In an ideal world, I would have Derrick sub in for Carlino for 5 two minute spans every game. Derrick holds down the fort for very short stints while Carlino gets a quick breather. Duane, JJJ, and Dawson split time at the two depending on who is playing the best that night.

This is exactly what needs to happen.  

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

This is exactly what needs to happen.  

COMMON GROUND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Sorry, I had to)

[willie warrior]

Well that's because Derrick wasn't awful. He wasn't good. But he wasn't awful. Duane was awful for the first 35 minutes of the game and spectacular for the last 5. Since Carlino seems to have earned (deservingly so IMHO) the starting PG spot, that means we are discussing who are backup PG should be (not something you hear often). For my backup PG, I prefer a game manager who's going to be consistently average than a player who is either going to give you  a great performance, or cause your team to hemorrhage points. If we were talking about the starting PG job, I'd probably want to roll the dice and hope Duane can find some consistency.

In an ideal world, I would have Derrick sub in for Carlino for 5 two minute spans every game. Derrick holds down the fort for very short stints while Carlino gets a quick breather. Duane, JJJ, and Dawson split time at the two depending on who is playing the best that night.

You are simply laughable, TAMU. Right here you said you would roll the dice between Duane and Derrick, hoping Duane can find some consistency. Do you mean like the consistency of Derrick being a 4 on 5 player? Without saying it, you are inferring Derrick is the better player. Keep up the slurp, because before long Duane will be blowing right by Derrick, as he already has, except in your mind.

[Ellisium]

How many times did OSU turn the ball over in the first half?  A lot of that wasn't due to good defense, but sloppy play by OSU.

Bingo.  Our defense doesn't force many turnovers as Carlino and Andersen aren't quick enough. 

[brandx]

Well that's because Derrick wasn't awful. He wasn't good. But he wasn't awful. Duane was awful for the first 35 minutes of the game and spectacular for the last 5. Since Carlino seems to have earned (deservingly so IMHO) the starting PG spot, that means we are discussing who are backup PG should be (not something you hear often). For my backup PG, I prefer a game manager who's going to be consistently average than a player who is either going to give you  a great performance, or cause your team to hemorrhage points. If we were talking about the starting PG job, I'd probably want to roll the dice and hope Duane can find some consistency.

In an ideal world, I would have Derrick sub in for Carlino for 5 two minute spans every game. Derrick holds down the fort for very short stints while Carlino gets a quick breather. Duane, JJJ, and Dawson split time at the two depending on who is playing the best that night.

Thanks a lot TAMU

The one guy I have on ignore and you go and quote him.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Well that's because Derrick wasn't awful. He wasn't good. But he wasn't awful. Duane was awful for the first 35 minutes of the game and spectacular for the last 5.

Duane played only four minutes in the 1st half and then the last 12 in the 2nd. Most OSU starters were in till the end, but certainly for most of those 12 minutes. While Duane wasn't stellar, he did some nice things...one of the few who did. It was his second game ever, and in both, he did very well on the ORating in limited minutes. Stats can indeed be misleading, but let's shy away from hyperbole like above and stay with the facts. Statsheet graded him as a B- and I thnk that is about right.

As to the thread comments on his defense, he and the team were horrid. Didn't play with their feet, no communication, no rotations, tired legs....on top of a mismatch on height and athleticism. The good news, a lot of this can be fixed with time and coaching.  

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

You are simply laughable, TAMU. Right here you said you would roll the dice between Duane and Derrick, hoping Duane can find some consistency. Do you mean like the consistency of Derrick being a 4 on 5 player? Without saying it, you are inferring Derrick is the better player. Keep up the slurp, because before long Duane will be blowing right by Derrick, as he already has, except in your mind.

So he's blown past him? But Wojo still played Derrick more? Guess its not just in my mind.

4 on 5 was last season. Last night, OSU didn't sag off Derrick and he went 1/2 from three. I don't know if that will continue or not, but is not fair to assume that Derrick hasn't made any improvements.

Right now, Derrick is the better backup PG. Duane is the better starting PG and shooting guard. Since Carlino has the starting job for now, that means Derrick will be the backup and Duane will play off the ball. As Duane gets more confident, he may take over some of Derrick's minutes. Or he might have to wait til next season.

[Blackhat]

Here's some good websites with Coach K's basic defensive philosophy.  

http://www.coachingtoolbox.net/blog/coach-k-defensive-notes

http://coachingbetterbball.blogspot.com/2009/10/team-man-to-man-defense-with-mike.html
  

Did we get a single charge?   I don't think we did.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Did we get a single charge?   I don't think we did.

I remember one from the first half. But I think that might have been it.

[MU82]

Well that's because Derrick wasn't awful. He wasn't good. But he wasn't awful. Duane was awful for the first 35 minutes of the game and spectacular for the last 5. Since Carlino seems to have earned (deservingly so IMHO) the starting PG spot, that means we are discussing who are backup PG should be (not something you hear often). For my backup PG, I prefer a game manager who's going to be consistently average than a player who is either going to give you  a great performance, or cause your team to hemorrhage points. If we were talking about the starting PG job, I'd probably want to roll the dice and hope Duane can find some consistency.

In an ideal world, I would have Derrick sub in for Carlino for 5 two minute spans every game. Derrick holds down the fort for very short stints while Carlino gets a quick breather. Duane, JJJ, and Dawson split time at the two depending on who is playing the best that night.

I agree with this premise, especially about Derrick getting only 10 mpg or so, but I'd still like to see Duane get some run at PG, especially if it becomes apparent as the season progresses that we aren't going to be a surprise NCAA tourney team.

If we have a realistic shot at the tourney then yeah, keep using the two seniors at PG while spotting Duane there for a minute or two while using him mostly at SG. But if it becomes obvious we no longer have a shot, shouldn't we at least be thinking about what we hope to be an amazing future? And shouldn't a part of that be seeing if Duane really can play PG at this level?

Lots of assumptions there, I know, and I also know we're not in the play-for-future stage of the season yet.

[Texas Western]

Well that's because Derrick wasn't awful. He wasn't good. But he wasn't awful. Duane was awful for the first 35 minutes of the game and spectacular for the last 5. Since Carlino seems to have earned (deservingly so IMHO) the starting PG spot, that means we are discussing who are backup PG should be (not something you hear often). For my backup PG, I prefer a game manager who's going to be consistently average than a player who is either going to give you  a great performance, or cause your team to hemorrhage points. If we were talking about the starting PG job, I'd probably want to roll the dice and hope Duane can find some consistency.

In an ideal world, I would have Derrick sub in for Carlino for 5 two minute spans every game. Derrick holds down the fort for very short stints while Carlino gets a quick breather. Duane, JJJ, and Dawson split time at the two depending on who is playing the best that night.

I agree with your ideal world scenario , only thing I would add is JJJ also split time at the 3. I think he and Duane have good on court chemistry.

[willie warrior]

So he's blown past him? But Wojo still played Derrick more? Guess its not just in my mind.

4 on 5 was last season. Last night, OSU didn't sag off Derrick and he went 1/2 from three. I don't know if that will continue or not, but is not fair to assume that Derrick hasn't made any improvements.

Right now, Derrick is the better backup PG. Duane is the better starting PG and shooting guard. Since Carlino has the starting job for now, that means Derrick will be the backup and Duane will play off the ball. As Duane gets more confident, he may take over some of Derrick's minutes. Or he might have to wait til next season.

As it also is not fair to assume that he is now competent at three point shooting based on 1 for 2, especially with his history.

[willie warrior]

So he's blown past him? But Wojo still played Derrick more? Guess its not just in my mind.

4 on 5 was last season. Last night, OSU didn't sag off Derrick and he went 1/2 from three. I don't know if that will continue or not, but is not fair to assume that Derrick hasn't made any improvements.

Right now, Derrick is the better backup PG. Duane is the better starting PG and shooting guard. Since Carlino has the starting job for now, that means Derrick will be the backup and Duane will play off the ball. As Duane gets more confident, he may take over some of Derrick's minutes. Or he might have to wait til next season.

All opinion--no fact. But OK, you think Derrick is better than Duane. Just like you think he is better than Dawson, and likely was better than Jr. Derrick is a back up. My point is he should be behind Duane also. Let's see how that plays out. But if you believe that Derrick is more talented--keep chewing the mushrooms.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

All opinion--no fact. But OK, you think Derrick is better than Duane. Just like you think he is better than Dawson, and likely was better than Jr. Derrick is a back up. My point is he should be behind Duane also. Let's see how that plays out. But if you believe that Derrick is more talented--keep chewing the mushrooms.

Not what I said in the slightest. I don't think Derrick is better than Duane. I think he is a better backup PG than Duane. If it was the starting job, I would pick Duane.

You can't look at the PG position in a vacuum. I don't want Duane playing the back up point because we need him to be the backup SG. We run a lot of four guard lineups and that means we need all of our guards getting minutes. That includes Derrick, Duane and Dawson. Derrick can hold down the backup PG spot while Duane and Dawson help out with the 2 and even the 3.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I agree with this premise, especially about Derrick getting only 10 mpg or so, but I'd still like to see Duane get some run at PG, especially if it becomes apparent as the season progresses that we aren't going to be a surprise NCAA tourney team.

If we have a realistic shot at the tourney then yeah, keep using the two seniors at PG while spotting Duane there for a minute or two while using him mostly at SG. But if it becomes obvious we no longer have a shot, shouldn't we at least be thinking about what we hope to be an amazing future? And shouldn't a part of that be seeing if Duane really can play PG at this level?

Lots of assumptions there, I know, and I also know we're not in the play-for-future stage of the season yet.

Of all the positions, I think PG requires the most in game experience in order to become better. So I agree that getting Duane some playing time at the 1 would be beneficial. Assuming he is the starting PG of the future. If Wojo really likes him off the ball, maybe he's looking to Noskowiak or Dawson to be the 1 next season. Or maybe Cohen or Cheathum since they both reportedly have PG skills.

I always have a hard time picking when its time to start playing for the future in college basketball. You technically aren't out of the tournament until you lose in the conference tournament. I would say if there is no hope of an at large bid, getting future starters some run is important, especially if they will be switching positions.

[Silkk the Shaka]

Not what I said in the slightest. I don't think Derrick is better than Duane. I think he is a better backup PG than Duane. If it was the starting job, I would pick Duane.

You can't look at the PG position in a vacuum. I don't want Duane playing the back up point because we need him to be the backup SG. We run a lot of four guard lineups and that means we need all of our guards getting minutes. That includes Derrick, Duane and Dawson. Derrick can hold down the backup PG spot while Duane and Dawson help out with the 2 and even the 3.

No offense, but this makes no sense.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

No offense, but this makes no sense.

Sure it does. Totally different things are expected of a starting and a backup point guard. A starter is expected to be a playmaker, a scorer, a creator. A backup is supposed to not screw up for a few minutes until the starer can get back in. Duane is a better playmaker than Derrick but it comes at the cost of freshman mistakes.

[willie warrior]

Sure it does. Totally different things are expected of a starting and a backup point guard. A starter is expected to be a playmaker, a scorer, a creator. A backup is supposed to not screw up for a few minutes until the starer can get back in. Duane is a better playmaker than Derrick but it comes at the cost of freshman mistakes.

Right, which are sooo unlike senior mistakes.

[willie warrior]

Duane played only four minutes in the 1st half and then the last 12 in the 2nd. Most OSU starters were in till the end, but certainly for most of those 12 minutes. While Duane wasn't stellar, he did some nice things...one of the few who did. It was his second game ever, and in both, he did very well on the ORating in limited minutes. Stats can indeed be misleading, but let's shy away from hyperbole like above and stay with the facts. Statsheet graded him as a B- and I thnk that is about right.

As to the thread comments on his defense, he and the team were horrid. Didn't play with their feet, no communication, no rotations, tired legs....on top of a mismatch on height and athleticism. The good news, a lot of this can be fixed with time and coaching.  

Oh my---this does not go well with TAMU's narrative that Duane was awful/played poorly. But then again why let facts get in the way of a good slurp? Just out of curiosity, what grade does the stat sheet give the Elight one?

[tower912]

I'll add to it.   A year ago there was wailing and gnashing of teeth because (fill in the blank) wasn't playing more.   The common response was that they had to play better defense, because the former coach had said that minutes were earned on the defensive end.    This year, (fill in the blank) is getting more minutes, and some are shocked that they are erratic defensively.     At what point did and why did anyone start believing that the guys who were not good defensively last year would suddenly become defensive stoppers in an aggressive, stretched, man to man defense?     
I believe with every fiber of my being that each and every one of them will get better defensively.   But in the end, this is a small, not deep team with few players who have ever been considered even adequate defensively.   It is going to take time but I believe they will get there.   Just expecting it against an upper level B1G team this early in the year is unreasonable. 

Bump.    With the caveat that they can't defend quick guards, either.    The former coach wasn't joking when he said they didn't play because they didn't play defense to his standards.      Yeah, I'm bearish.   (deep cleansing breath)  (ooohhhhhmmmm)    This year it is about the process, not the results.