Crean

[River rat]

almost as big a tool as Tommy "Naismith" Crean

http://deadspin.com/texas-techs-midnight-madness-featured-tubby-smith-wreck-1647927612

oh and for some good reading go to the IU boards.  He just got 2 verbals from 3 star players, one the 290th ranked Sr.,  Putting IU two over the limit.  IU fans besides themselves on how he can be over committing with 3 star players.  Pretty much consigned to the fact that he is gone and at this point just hoping it comes quickly.  Doom and gloom 7 years in.  His tenure eerily similar and equally vomit inducing as his tenure at MU.  

[We R Final Four]

Final Fours don't make me puke.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Breathtaking analysis

[jesmu84]

Breathtaking analysis

+1

[The Lens]

Final Fours don't make me puke.

1 NCAA tournament win in his last FIVE years, considering his salary, facilities and the overall commitment to the program by the University was almost vomit inducing.  At least with us he did get that Final Four, IU really has nothing to show for his tenure.

[We R Final Four]

Yeah us........MU.

Who gives a sheet bout Crean's salary at IU?

Not I.....and certainly doesn't induce vomiting.

[PJDunn]

That spray on tan is a tad vomit inducing...

[Johnny B]

Yikes!

[ChicosBailBonds]

1 NCAA tournament win in his last FIVE years, considering his salary, facilities and the overall commitment to the program by the University was almost vomit inducing.  At least with us he did get that Final Four, IU really has nothing to show for his tenure.

First Big Ten title in 20+ years
A few Sweet 16's
Several NBA selections
Team no longer on drugs, going to class, 8 guys on Big Ten all academic team

Will he last long, who knows.  Most here had him gone in year 3. 


Can't wait for our next Final Four at MU....seems to happen so often

[Galway Eagle]

First Big Ten title in 20+ years
A few Sweet 16's
Several NBA selections
Team no longer on drugs, going to class, 8 guys on Big Ten all academic team

Will he last long, who knows.  Most here had him gone in year 3. 


Can't wait for our next Final Four at MU....seems to happen so often

Why don't we hear you say this stuff when Willie hates on Buzz? I mean shouldn't it be equal? (I'm genuinely curious not trying to bate a fight)

Also why are we so obsessed with crean still? Did we talk about deane when buzz was coach? No! When crean was coach did we talk about O'neil? I was pretty young but I hope not.  I get us talking about the last coach but going back to crean just isn't worth it except for the occasional tanning joke.

[TheBurrEffect]

Why don't we hear you say this stuff when Willie hates on Buzz? I mean shouldn't it be equal? (I'm genuinely curious not trying to bate a fight)

Also why are we so obsessed with crean still? Did we talk about deane when buzz was coach? No! When crean was coach did we talk about O'neil? I was pretty young but I hope not.  I get us talking about the last coach but going back to crean just isn't worth it except for the occasional tanning joke.

Uhhh it went Crean --> Buzz, not Deane --> Buzz.

So yes, crean is the last coach. (up until 6 months ago)

[Jay Bee]

Will he last long, who knows. 

As LNH stated (and you and many others doubted), his contract helps his staying power.

Crean absolutely ate Indiana's lunch at the negotiating table. Much like Buzz did to VT.

[PE8983]

Six years at a perennial top 5-10 school
40-68 in Big 10 play
101-97 total with plenty of cupcakes on the pre-season schedule
(2) NCAA tournament appearances
(2) Sweet 16's with (1) of them as a #1 seed and getting a gift from the officials in a win over Temple.
(0) NIT appearances
Not to mention the only time he has recruited any stud players is the Calipari-like recruiting approach of getting in bed with the Indy Spiece program.
Not exactly anything to brag about...

[River rat]

Six years at a perennial top 5-10 school
40-68 in Big 10 play
101-97 total with plenty of cupcakes on the pre-season schedule
(2) NCAA tournament appearances
(2) Sweet 16's with (1) of them as a #1 seed and getting a gift from the officials in a win over Temple.
(0) NIT appearances
Not to mention the only time he has recruited any stud players is the Calipari-like recruiting approach of getting in bed with the Indy Spiece program.
Not exactly anything to brag about...

Not too mention only 2 of his last 8 signees are top 100 players.  At IU!?
This on top of everything else has the alums enraged.  They at this point want him gone and are concerned the admin. given his salary will be slow.  
I hear about it all the time, when he was tirst hired all their alums would ask me about him.  I told them, great hire... For now.  He will say the right things n get the program fixed, kids will go to class, he will recruit hard n have initial recruiting success beacause... Its indiana.  But in 5 years u will wanthim fired, he is a bad coach, he has a very low ceiling and is immently unlikeable.  They are now all telling me i was 100% dead on.

He is a dead man walking.  Alums hate him or are on the verge if he doesnt go to the tourney this year.  The negative recruiting against a lame duck coach is clear.  Not to mention his promise to recruits  rings hollow with no real actual sucess.  I never thought i would hear "we are worse than Fing Nebraska" from IU fans, as the best recruits again are going elsewhere.

I will admit to enjoying watching this trainwreck

[We R Final Four]

I hope he "ho ou"s in the tourney this year.

[Lennys Tap]

A few Sweet 16's

One could say a few. One could say multiple. Two is the actual number.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Why don't we hear you say this stuff when Willie hates on Buzz? I mean shouldn't it be equal? (I'm genuinely curious not trying to bate a fight)

Also why are we so obsessed with crean still? Did we talk about deane when buzz was coach? No! When crean was coach did we talk about O'neil? I was pretty young but I hope not.  I get us talking about the last coach but going back to crean just isn't worth it except for the occasional tanning joke.

Bags...what has Bert accomplished yet at Va Tech?  I'll be happy to do so when he has some years under his belt.   What equality do you want, Buzz hasn't even coached a game yet at his new school....right?  Plus, Buzz did some things that aren't worth defending ever at MU as far as I'm concerned, but in terms of X's and O's, he'll do just fine at Va. Tech.  Expectations low, football school, no one cares, under the radar, administration not paying attention, he'll be like a pig in mud.

This thread, as stupid as Robbie typically is, was about Crean at IU.  Why, after 8 years he decided he needed to start something like this again, you can only ask the Angus king. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

As LNH stated (and you and many others doubted), his contract helps his staying power.

Crean absolutely ate Indiana's lunch at the negotiating table. Much like Buzz did to VT.

Did anyone put a gun to IU's head?  Nope.  Think there is a reason they did what they did?  Yup.  The program was an absolute disaster when he took over and they knew it.  When they found all the drug issues, academic nightmare, etc, he leveraged up.

[River rat]

Chicos is butt hurt

[warriorfred]

Not too mention only 2 of his last 8 signees are top 100 players.  At IU!?
This on top of everything else has the alums enraged.  They at this point want him gone and are concerned the admin. given his salary will be slow. 
I hear about it all the time, when he was tirst hired all their alums would ask me about him.  I told them, great hire... For now.  He will say the right things n get the program fixed, kids will go to class, he will recruit hard n have initial recruiting success beacause... Its indiana.  But in 5 years u will wanthim fired, he is a bad coach, he has a very low ceiling and is immently unlikeable.  They are now all telling me i was 100% dead on.

He is a dead man walking.  Alums hate him or are on the verge if he doesnt ho uo the tourney this year.  The negative recruiting against a lame duck coach is clear.  Not to mention his promise to recruits  rings hollow with no real actual sucess.  I never thought i would hear "we are worse than Fing Nebraska" from IU fans, as the best recruits again are going elsewhere.

I will admit to enjoying watching this trainwreck

I had similar conversations with IU alums during last year's NCAA tournament.  To a person, the IU alums want Crean fired, but they are stuck with the large contract.  Yes, the IU alums appreciate the work he did getting the program out of the cellar, but they all recognize Crean has limited upside . . . the situation is oddly familiar.

[Galway Eagle]

Bags...what has Bert accomplished yet at Va Tech?  I'll be happy to do so when he has some years under his belt.   What equality do you want, Buzz hasn't even coached a game yet at his new school....right?  Plus, Buzz did some things that aren't worth defending ever at MU as far as I'm concerned, but in terms of X's and O's, he'll do just fine at Va. Tech.  Expectations low, football school, no one cares, under the radar, administration not paying attention, he'll be like a pig in mud.

This thread, as stupid as Robbie typically is, was about Crean at IU.  Why, after 8 years he decided he needed to start something like this again, you can only ask the Angus king. 

Right but I feel like when someone bashes Crean's MU record you quickly jump in and defend that he brought us the final four Al and big east (I feel like you mention the 3amigos as well) but buzz did great stuff to im just curious why it isn't unanimous that you jump to his defense. I completely understand defending crean at IU because your affiliation with IU as well but I'm purely talk at MU.

I don't know who the angus king is but I agree this is a stupid thread that didn't need to happen.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Six years at a perennial top 5-10 school
40-68 in Big 10 play
101-97 total with plenty of cupcakes on the pre-season schedule
(2) NCAA tournament appearances
(2) Sweet 16's with (1) of them as a #1 seed and getting a gift from the officials in a win over Temple.
(0) NIT appearances
Not to mention the only time he has recruited any stud players is the Calipari-like recruiting approach of getting in bed with the Indy Spiece program.
Not exactly anything to brag about...

Yup, that includes the first 3 years where the team had walk-ons starting for the team and basically shooting pellets in the Big Ten.  I think Glass put it correctly not long ago.  Two of the last 3 years, two NCAA appearances, two Sweet 16's, one Big Ten title (first in 20+ years), a couple of kids to the NBA, academics as high as they have ever been (higher than Bob Knight era), etc.  Perfect, no way.  Off court issues with two kids...yup.  Could it be better, absolutely.  Train wreck?  Hardly.

Now, does he have to keep winning, of course.  Are there some alums pissed off?  Of course.  Look at all the alums pissed off at Alabama because they only beat Arkansas 14-13, or at LSU because my God, they've lost 3 games this year.  It happens.  If he doesn't get it done, ultimately he will be gone....though I still predict he will leave on his own terms if that time should come, but we'll see.

As for the Angus insurance man River Rat, the recruiting rankings crack me up.   He might want to look at where Victor Oladipo was ranked when he committed to IU....then after a few years he went to the NBA and gives most of the credit to a certain coach.  IU fans were pissed that this 3 star kid ranked closer to 200 than 100 committed to the program.  Jordan Hulls, a 3 star kid did just fine.  Some guy not ranked name Dwyane Wade comes to mind.  Etc, etc.  It surprises me, too, with Canadian Dimes thinking Mbao had a NBA career ahead of him and was so gung ho on that recruitment....the Dime was so good at identifying talent for him in the past.

It's funny, River Rat has used the same "train wreck" comment for 6 years now, under a bunch of different usernames.  I suppose one year he will get it right.   One year he will find sucess <sic> in his selection.

Otherwise, breathtaking analysis by the Angus king again.

[4everwarriors]

Crean sucks

[Lennys Tap]

Jordan Hulls, a 3 star kid did just fine. 

Jordan Hulls final RSCI was 74. He was a consensus 4*. Calling him a 3* because a minority of services ranked him there would be no less dishonest that saying Wade was ranked on the edge of the top 50 because Bob Gibbons had him at 55. Just fundamentally dishonest.

[River rat]

Dishonest is right as are oladipos as a near 200 recruit, he was a borderline top 100 kid
Cough agenda cough
And the prevoius poster is dead on chico has quoted Creams mu successes ad nausum but wont quote buzzs because he hasnt dont anything at VT?
Again a pyschiatrists dream patient.  

[PJDunn]

At the end of the day it all comes back to the fake tan.  Everything else is window dressing.  Tom is a freak.

[humanlung]

Unless you are secretly longing for TT to return to MU, is there ANY reason for this thread to exist?

[MUHoopsFan2]

At the end of the day it all comes back to the fake tan.  Everything else is window dressing.  Tom is a freak.

lol....but I disagree.

I do not mean to but in anyone's business but I too am wonder why we still knock Tom Crean.

Let me tell you something...EVERYTHING started with him.

Like it or not or whether you want to admit it or not. He brought Buzz here and the entire culture change when he got here. That is the bottom line...

There is not a spotless or perfect or stainless program in the country. But the foundation was laid by Tom Crean from Conference USA to the Big East from the old gym to 'the AL'...mark it down...he spearheaded it all.

You will never see me be so shallow as to knock or rip Crean or Buzz, Both were absolutely awesome for this University as Men's Basketball Coaches.

[Silkk the Shaka]

One could say a few. One could say multiple. Two is the actual number.

perfect

[Silkk the Shaka]

Crean sucks

Like death and taxes, it's not a real thread until 4ever gets this in

[Galway Eagle]

lol....but I disagree.

I do not mean to but in anyone's business but I too am wonder why we still knock Tom Crean.

Let me tell you something...EVERYTHING started with him.

Like it or not or whether you want to admit it or not. He brought Buzz here and the entire culture change when he got here. That is the bottom line...

There is not a spotless or perfect or stainless program in the country. But the foundation was laid by Tom Crean from Conference USA to the Big East from the old gym to 'the AL'...mark it down...he spearheaded it all.

You will never see me be so shallow as to knock or rip Crean or Buzz, Both were absolutely awesome for this University as Men's Basketball Coaches.

It could be argued that it was Kevin O'neil that restarted it I mean Jim macilvine believes it.

[Golden Avalanche]

It could be argued that it was Kevin O'neil that restarted it I mean Jim macilvine believes it.

So, what's the argument?

[avid1010]

Crean sucks

+1...he's a prick, too.

he served a purpose at MU, as he did at IU...he'll be gone as soon as they can afford to do so.  

[River rat]

lol....but I disagree.

I do not mean to but in anyone's business but I too am wonder why we still knock Tom Crean.

Let me tell you something...EVERYTHING started with him.

Like it or not or whether you want to admit it or not. He brought Buzz here and the entire culture change when he got here. That is the bottom line...

There is not a spotless or perfect or stainless program in the country. But the foundation was laid by Tom Crean from Conference USA to the Big East from the old gym to 'the AL'...mark it down...he spearheaded it all.



You will never see me be so shallow as to knock or rip Crean or Buzz, Both were absolutely awesome for this University as Men's Basketball Coaches.

Umm I am happy for you and your opinion but I completely disagree.   And I belive most would wholeheartedly disagree with you.  Mu was top 25 in attendance and in the tourney  a couple of times , once with a 4 seed and once off a conference championship with 2 nbaers on the roster a mere 2 years before Tommy Naismith invented the game at MU.  Stop reading his Bio and get real.  Mu to the Big EAst is on the shoulders of AL.  And again MU was attractive to Big Easts western expansion due to its history, market, attendance and on court performance well before tommy ever showed up.  I would give second billing to Kevin oneil as he cleaned up the mess left by the Majerus exit and Dukiet debacle.  
Maybe not shallow , simply uninformed.  Crean was no more than a steward and a dbag

[source?]

One could say a few. One could say multiple. Two is the actual number.

I laughed.

[Galway Eagle]

So, what's the argument?

That we sucked... Bad. Kevin Oneil brings us to two ncaa appearances (s16) next we make the nit championship (not terrible better than flaming out) follow that with two more ncaa appearances. To at least have the program respectable in 90s before crean took over and brought us to a consistent major level.

[River rat]

https://indiana.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=726&mid=205729292&sid=942&tid=205729292&style=1

What they are talking about on the IU board.

Maybe they need superfan chico to remind them of his accomplishments

[tower912]

Thank you, Coach Crean, for your accomplishments at MU.   IMO, your greatest, other than the Final 4 of course,  was lining up a successor who was a far better coach.   I don't hate the guy.   I fully appreciate the time and effort he put into MU.  But, if you look at Crean's overall record; 291-194, 7 NCAA tourney bids, 3 NIT bids, 5 seasons with no post season in 15 years as a head coach at high profile programs, it is difficult to make a case that he is much more than a slightly above average coach.  

[source?]

https://indiana.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=726&mid=205729292&sid=942&tid=205729292&style=1

What they are talking about on the IU board.

Maybe they need superfan chico to remind them of his accomplishments

I don't understand how to read that board. Do you have to click on each post? That seems absurd.

[The Lens]

Let's examine life at MU before Tom Crean resuscitated a program that (as TC would have you believe) had gotten the death penalty right after Al retired and did not field a team for 22 years except for when Doc Rivers played by himself:

2 Years before - Conference Tourney Champs, NCAA bid, 10 seed, 1st Round
3 Years before - NCAA bid, 4 seed, 2nd Round
4 Years before - NIT Runner-up (IU would kill for one of these in 6 of the past 8 years)
5 Years before - NCAA bid 6 seed, Sweet 16

[Lennys Tap]

Let's examine life at MU before Tom Crean resuscitated a program that (as TC would have you believe) had gotten the death penalty right after Al retired and did not field a team for 22 years except for when Doc Rivers played by himself:

2 Years before - Conference Tourney Champs, NCAA bid, 10 seed, 1st Round
3 Years before - NCAA bid, 4 seed, 2nd Round
4 Years before - NIT Runner-up (IU would kill for one of these in 6 of the past 8 years)
5 Years before - NCAA bid 6 seed, Sweet 16

So 3 NCAA bids, 3 NCAA wins and an NIT runner up in the 5 years pre TC versus 5 NCAA bids, 5 NCAA wins and no real NIT success in 9 years with TC. Thanks, Tom, for saving our program. LOL

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

Don't forget, out athletes couldn't even get new basketball shoes before he showed up, and there was so little interest in the program that he had to be introduced at the coffee shop at the AMU (both claims by TC).

The list of the last few years before Crean should be pinned to the top of the board. I got to enjoy 2003-2008 (also known as 1 NCAA win over a five year period). Talk about a basketball drought.

[River rat]

Let's examine life at MU before Tom Crean resuscitated a program that (as TC would have you believe) had gotten the death penalty right after Al retired and did not field a team for 22 years except for when Doc Rivers played by himself:

2 Years before - Conference Tourney Champs, NCAA bid, 10 seed, 1st Round
3 Years before - NCAA bid, 4 seed, 2nd Round
4 Years before - NIT Runner-up (IU would kill for one of these in 6 of the past 8 years)
5 Years before - NCAA bid 6 seed, Sweet 16

Dont forget....

6 Years before - NCAA bid


6 years before Crean took over at IU they were in the National title game. 

Tom Crean - Program builder

[CTWarrior]

So 3 NCAA bids, 3 NCAA wins and an NIT runner up in the 5 years pre TC versus 5 NCAA bids, 5 NCAA wins and no real NIT success in 9 years with TC. Thanks, Tom, for saving our program. LOL

Not to mention that his predecessor who accomplished those things in the five years before Crean was dismissed from the position.  The school did not think that was good enough.  

To be fair, O'Neill somehow righted a sunk ship, but Crean reversed a burgeoning downward spiral under Deane.  Crean deserves a lot of credit for that, but if there is a post-McGuire savior, I vote for O'Neill.

[Golden Avalanche]

That we sucked... Bad. Kevin Oneil brings us to two ncaa appearances (s16) next we make the nit championship (not terrible better than flaming out) follow that with two more ncaa appearances. To at least have the program respectable in 90s before crean took over and brought us to a consistent major level.

I did't think you meant to transpose Deane's accomplishments to KO but the bad sentence structure makes it seem that way. Otherwise, at least you kept it succinct and excluded the hatred so many around here seem consumed by.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Let's examine life at MU before Tom Crean resuscitated a program that (as TC would have you believe) had gotten the death penalty right after Al retired and did not field a team for 22 years except for when Doc Rivers played by himself:

2 Years before - Conference Tourney Champs, NCAA bid, 10 seed, 1st Round
3 Years before - NCAA bid, 4 seed, 2nd Round
4 Years before - NIT Runner-up (IU would kill for one of these in 6 of the past 8 years)
5 Years before - NCAA bid 6 seed, Sweet 16

Interesting, especially when you reference Doc Rivers and Rivers said he resurrected the program, and Hank Raymonds said he built a monster.  Personally, I don't think he resurrected it, I think he made it so a lot of naysayers that said MU can never be good again drown in their BS.  We got to a place we hadn't been in 25 years.

A bit of clarification on what happened prior....

2 years before we had to win 4 games in a conference tournament to make the NCAAs....we then got drilled by 30+ points when we showed up at the dance.  We were not a good team, we got hot at the right time.  Classic crap shoot.

No, IU would not kill for a NIT runner-up, you're kidding yourself if you think this is the case, especially using the last 6 year time horizon.  Are you suggesting they would trade the two Sweet 16's for a NIT runner-up...please.

What seems to be missing is that from 1977 to 2003, a span of 25 seasons, we went to zero Final Fours and ONE Sweet 16.  A total of 9 NCAA appearances in the 25 years since the championship.  NINE.  A total of 5 NCAA tournament wins in those 25 years.  Crean's team practically equaled that in one year.

8 years later, the continued crapfest continues.  Some of you really should seek counseling.  Do you do this around Mike Holmgren?  Majerus?  O'Neill?    It is truly amazing to see, not much more I can say.  Par for the course for River Rat and Lenny, it's what they do.  Funny thing is that I know Mike Peeg's pretty well, interesting to see River Rat post on IU boards as an IU fan....pathetic, but interesting nonetheless.

[MU82]

I am not a Crean hater. I certainly am not a Crean apologist.

Crean did reasonably well at Marquette. Helped stabilize the program. Brought in a very good successor. Recruited one of the best, if not THE best, player in school history. Coached us to the Final Four. Of course, that FF was his only great season, beginning to end, but he had a lot of good ones.

At Indiana, he has been OK. Going to back-to-back S16s in Years 4 and 5 at IU is good, obviously, but it's hardly legendary stuff. And then to follow that by not even making the NIT despite the presence of two high draft picks, certainly not impressive.

Crean has been a good college coach. He clearly doesn't live up to the hype that broadcasters have created, but it's not as if he has been bad.

He's not the village idiot. He's not a championship-caliber coach. He's in the middle, right there with dozens and dozens - and hundreds? - of others.

[Lennys Tap]

I am not a Crean hater. I certainly am not a Crean apologist.

Crean did reasonably well at Marquette. Helped stabilize the program. Brought in a very good successor. Recruited one of the best, if not THE best, player in school history. Coached us to the Final Four. Of course, that FF was his only great season, beginning to end, but he had a lot of good ones.

At Indiana, he has been OK. Going to back-to-back S16s in Years 4 and 5 at IU is good, obviously, but it's hardly legendary stuff. And then to follow that by not even making the NIT despite the presence of two high draft picks, certainly not impressive.

Crean has been a good college coach. He clearly doesn't live up to the hype that broadcasters have created, but it's not as if he has been bad.

He's not the village idiot. He's not a championship-caliber coach. He's in the middle, right there with dozens and dozens - and hundreds? - of others.

This is a fair description of Crean the coach.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Unless you are secretly longing for TT to return to MU, is there ANY reason for this thread to exist?

None, but a few people here have serious issues.  It's been over 6 years and 6 months....some serious issues...

[PE8983]

Please - 3 years of walk-ons at IU???  Took 3 years just to recruit some scholarship players and get them on the court???  UK does this every year. 

What a crock of an excuse and not even true.  Nonetheless, even if true, who's fault is it that walk-on's are playing after the first year?  After all, "it's IU".  Top 5 national program.  Final Four coach.  Players would flock to go there, right?  Guess not...

[MU82]

Please - 3 years of walk-ons at IU???  Took 3 years just to recruit some scholarship players and get them on the court???  UK does this every year. 

What a crock of an excuse and not even true.  Nonetheless, even if true, who's fault is it that walk-on's are playing after the first year?  After all, "it's IU".  Top 5 national program.  Final Four coach.  Players would flock to go there, right?  Guess not...

Good point, PE.

I actually thought one of the first signs of trouble for IU under Crean was that by Year 3 he was still having so little success. Good coaches at great basketball schools should be able to rebuild more quickly -- not saying they should have contended for a BT title but at least shouldn't have been embarrassingly bad.

Sign 2 was that he was crushed in the 2013 Sweet 16 despite two top-5 draft picks and several good supporting players. Obviously outclassed.

Sign 3, of course, was last season. A major regression despite having another top-10 pick and some good supporting players.

And now is he actually having trouble recruiting 4-star players? I mean that as a real question because I don't follow recruiting other than Marquette's.

[Jay Bee]

And now is he actually having trouble recruiting 4-star players? I mean that as a real question because I don't follow recruiting other than Marquette's.

No. I4.

That's all you need to say to recruit there. I4. And he does.

And kids are into it. BOATLOADS of talent on their roster, year in and year out. Just haven't gotten it to work.

Enough talent (and enough mediocrity in the B1G) this season to do very well.

[Tugg Speedman]

Good point, PE.

I actually thought one of the first signs of trouble for IU under Crean was that by Year 3 he was still having so little success. Good coaches at great basketball schools should be able to rebuild more quickly -- not saying they should have contended for a BT title but at least shouldn't have been embarrassingly bad.

Sign 2 was that he was crushed in the 2013 Sweet 16 despite two top-5 draft picks and several good supporting players. Obviously outclassed.

Sign 3, of course, was last season. A major regression despite having another top-10 pick and some good supporting players.

And now is he actually having trouble recruiting 4-star players? I mean that as a real question because I don't follow recruiting other than Marquette's.

If MU had a Noah Vonleh type player last year and did not make the tourney, wouldn't we have been demanding someone's head?  We were pissed that we did not make it with Otule/Ox in the middle!

If MU had a player of Luke Fischer's caliber leave mid-season, would be be worried about the direction of the program? (About the only transfer of Fischer's caliber we had under Brent was J-May)

It is about what is happening now (noted above) and the fact that IU's 2013 class was ranked 4 (ESPN), it 2014 class was ranked 22 and its 2015 class (for now) has two commits, neither which is top 100 (first post above).  Notice a trend?  the IU faithful have and they do not like it.  And why should they?  Crean has been paid nicely for fixing the mess.  They now want him to be more like Izzo, which is why they hired him!  Do you see that happening?

[MU82]

If MU had a Noah Vonleh type player last year and did not make the tourney, wouldn't we have been demanding someone's head?  We were pissed that we did not make it with Otule/Ox in the middle!

If MU had a player of Luke Fischer's caliber leave mid-season, would be be worried about the direction of the program? (About the only transfer of Fischer's caliber we had under Brent was J-May)

It is about what is happening now (noted above) and the fact that IU's 2013 class was ranked 4 (ESPN), it 2014 class was ranked 22 and its 2015 class (for now) has two commits, neither which is top 100 (first post above).  Notice a trend?  the IU faithful have and they do not like it.  And why should they?  Crean has been paid nicely for fixing the mess.  They now want him to be more like Izzo, which is why they hired him!  Do you see that happening?

I'm not talking about Marquette. I'm talking about Indiana. And yes, if I were a Hoosiers fan, I would not have been pleased about last season.

I believe your last paragraph supports what I said.