Vander Blue versus Davante Gardner

[ChicosBailBonds]

I am borderline shocked that people believe Vander Blue had a better career at Marquette than Gardner. I don't even think it's very close.

I am no Ners fan, but he's 100 percent correct on this.

Agree, and it also is around replacement value.  Coming up with someone close to Vander for 3 years for an MU is easier than coming up with someone close to DG for four years.  We've had a hell of a time finding bigs that are productive for the last 30 years, where there are many guards that are solid players that MU has landed.

[MU82]

It's actually remarkable DG was able to show slight improvement over his Junior year.  With a good PG and solid SG (Mayo), Gardner would have gone for 18.5ppg without question last season.

First, Davante didn't show slight improvement from his junior to senior seasons. He improved his scoring average 30%. That is significant improvement, and he is to be commended.

Second, state your facts whenever you please, but don't try to pass off complete conjecture as fact "without question." You do this all the time. This is one of your favorite "tricks," Ners, and it's quite annoying.

Nobody can know if Gardner would have scored 3.6 more points per game with Blue on the court. Not even you.

[jesmu84]

Agree, and it also is around replacement value.  Coming up with someone close to Vander for 3 years for an MU is easier than coming up with someone close to DG for four years.  We've had a hell of a time finding bigs that are productive for the last 30 years, where there are many guards that are solid players that MU has landed.

First point made in 9 pages that actually made me contemplate changing my opinion. Hats off to you.

[ChicosBailBonds]

First point made in 9 pages that actually made me contemplate changing my opinion. Hats off to you.

I actually made that point earlier in the thread.   

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Are these some of the same people who think Matthews had a better career than McNeal?

He didn't.

[ATL MU Warrior]

I am borderline shocked that people believe Vander Blue had a better career at Marquette than Gardner. I don't even think it's very close.

I am no Ners fan, but he's 100 percent correct on this.

I was approaching it from a different perspective which is who is the better all-around basketball player.  Do I need to start another poll for that to become the topic?  Probably not worth it, cause anyone with any sense would pick Vander.

[NersEllenson]

My theory is that some people are still bitter that Vander left early and partially blame him for last year's abysmal campaign.

To me, Gardner's defense was so terrible that it negates any offensive advantage he had over Vander. Davante was an offensive low post specialist, Vander was a complete player. To me it was no contest. If this was football where you didn't have to play both sides of the court, I would pick Gardner without a moment's hesitation.

That certainly doesn't apply to me.  I know exactly why we were so abysmal last year and it wasn't because Vander Blue was gone.   

[NersEllenson]

I was approaching it from a different perspective which is who is the better all-around basketball player.  Do I need to start another poll for that to become the topic?  Probably not worth it, cause anyone with any sense would pick Vander.

I don't think its so cut and dried.  You are basing your point off of the fact Blue is a guard, and the ball is by virtue of position in his hands a lot more than a Gardner.  Gardner isn't going to lead a fast break, fill a lane on a fast break (other than trailer), score off of driving....because none of those things are what a guy that plays his position does.  You have to look at these guys and say - who played their position better?  In my view - Gardner.

Blue - Better defender?  Yes

Gardner - Better Shooter? Yes.  Better FT shooter?  Yes  Better passer? Yes.  Less turnover prone?  Yes.  Commands Double teams?  Yes.  Top 100 player in 9 offensive categories?  Yes.

[rocky_warrior]

There certainly are some vocal DG proponents, but 59% of the masses vote blue. 

[BallBoy]

I don't think its so cut and dried.  You are basing your point off of the fact Blue is a guard, and the ball is by virtue of position in his hands a lot more than a Gardner.  Gardner isn't going to lead a fast break, fill a lane on a fast break (other than trailer), score off of driving....because none of those things are what a guy that plays his position does.  You have to look at these guys and say - who played their position better?  In my view - Gardner.

Blue - Better defender?  Yes

Gardner - Better Shooter? Yes.  Better FT shooter?  Yes  Better passer? Yes.  Less turnover prone?  Yes.  Commands Double teams?  Yes.  Top 100 player in 9 offensive categories?  Yes.

So I pulled up the stats on team impact which calculates a players % of the teams statistics.  So if the team scored 100pts over the season on one player scored 10pts their impact was 10%.  You can compare these against all statistics.

I labelled each player as 1 or 2 so it could be blind and then I put next to each stat the one with the better impact.  If there was a negative stat, like TO, then the lower percentage is better.

STAT	Player 1	Player 2	W	Player 1	Player 2	W	Player 1	Player 2	W
Games Played	100	89.1	1	100	77.1	1	97.1	100	2
Games Started	32.4	0	1	97.1	34.2	1	97.1	0	1
Minutes	9.4	3.9	1	12.8	7.3	1	15.8	10.5	1
FG Made	7	5.4	1	10.8	9.5	1	21.7	15	1
FG Att	8.3	4.3	1	11.9	7.7	1	21.8	11.7	1
FT Made	6.9	7.1	2	14.1	13.3	1	17.4	26.6	2
FT Att	7.9	6.5	1	14.4	12.7	1	16.8	23.3	2
3pt FG	2	0	1	3.9	0	1	27.2	0.6	1
3pt FG Att	4.5	0	1	5.2	0.3	1	26.5	1	1
Points	6.7	5.4	1	11.1	9.7	1	21	16.8	1
Rebounds	7.8	5.4	1	12.3	11	1	8.8	13.5	2
Off Rebs	6.7	7.6	2	14	17.1	2	4.7	17	2
Def Rebs	8.3	4.3	1	11.5	8.5	1	10.9	11.7	2
Assists	10.2	1.7	1	15.6	3.2	1	12.8	6.4	1
Steals	12.4	1.5	1	13.1	6.9	1	15.5	9.9	1
Turnovers	11.2	4.4	2	16.9	7.1	2	16.8	11.7	2
Blocks	5.9	3.7	1	5.7	4	1	0	16.2	2
Fouls	10.6	7.2	2	9.3	11.1	1	10.1	12.2	1
Foul Outs	0	14.2	1	0	20	1	16.6	0	1

Which player had a bigger impact on the team?

[Johnny B]

This is getting ridiculous. They both were great players and i wish them luck. This thread needs to end.

[ATL MU Warrior]

I don't think its so cut and dried.  You are basing your point off of the fact Blue is a guard, and the ball is by virtue of position in his hands a lot more than a Gardner.  Gardner isn't going to lead a fast break, fill a lane on a fast break (other than trailer), score off of driving....because none of those things are what a guy that plays his position does.  You have to look at these guys and say - who played their position better?  In my view - Gardner.

Blue - Better defender?  Yes

Gardner - Better Shooter? Yes.  Better FT shooter?  Yes  Better passer? Yes.  Less turnover prone?  Yes.  Commands Double teams?  Yes.  Top 100 player in 9 offensive categories?  Yes.

You will never give up, I guess I have to give you credit for that.  

Answer me this.

How is it that a guy who was "just another guard" according to some here, in a game where it is supposedly far easier to find guards because there are more of them, how is it that this "just another guard" guy is an NBA player.  How is it that the other guy, a post player that, you know, are supposedly SO hard to find, won't sniff the NBA (despite his being a top 100 player in 9 offensive categories) because he can't make it up and down the court fast enough and he can't guard the basket stanchion?

How can that possibly be?

And you are telling me that Davante is the better all around player.  

[NersEllenson]

You will never give up, I guess I have to give you credit for that.  

Answer me this.

How is it that a guy who was "just another guard" according to some here, in a game where it is supposedly far easier to find guards because there are more of them, how is it that this "just another guard" guy is an NBA player.  How is it that the other guy, a post player that, you know, are supposedly SO hard to find, won't sniff the NBA (despite his being a top 100 player in 9 offensive categories) because he can't make it up and down the court fast enough and he can't guard the basket stanchion?

How can that possibly be?

And you are telling me that Davante is the better all around player.  

Blue wasn't drafted.  He made the NBDL and a Summer League team...bounced all over hell.  Brad Stevens perhaps had a distorted sense of him as a player, as Blue played the best game of his MU career against Stevens in the tourney.  Blue didn't stick.  I applaud the 10 day contract.  I genuinely will be happy for Vander if he can make into the NBA on any type of consistent basis just as I am for all MU guys.

With regard to Gardner - well, he too didn't get drafted.  Made a summer league roster.  Played limited minutes, yet in his minutes it was more of the same - scored the ball at a high rate.  If Davante can keep his weight under control and in good shape - it would not surprise me to see him earn a 10 day contract at some point.

The bigger issue is that one guy at least showed up in the Top 100 players in the country in 9 different O categories, while the other guy didn't.  Nor did he show up in any Defensive categories.

I'm sorry, I just can't ignore a guy who produced at the level and efficiency Gardner did while at MU, and dismiss him as a worse player than Blue.

[77ncaachamps]

BRinging it back to prove a point! ;p

[ChicosBailBonds]

BRinging it back to prove a point! ;p

Nice job of Hoopaloop'n