A New Stadium For The 2017 Season?

[Spotcheck Billy]

Frank Gimbel is probably the most responsible for the mess that is downtown Milwaukee and how hamstrung city planning is generally.....I want to know where he keeps the pictures on all these officials.

Local attorney's home searched, hard drives taken for extortion investigation breaking news live @ 5

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Cost is the factor there...dirty little secret(pun intended) is the amount remediation that will be required to get that land up and viable for use for an arena is very significant.

I've heard this as well.

My friend works in soil sciences said that the Park East site is an environmental and soil structure mess.

Lots of removal/abatement of existing soil and new base soil/gravel would need to be trucked in.

It's not impossible, but it's a big job.

[MU111]

I've heard this as well.

My friend works in soil sciences said that the Park East site is an environmental and soil structure mess.

Lots of removal/abatement of existing soil and new base soil/gravel would need to be trucked in.

It's not impossible, but it's a big job.

Is that just the case for the area where the highway stood, or does that also include the land between 4th and 6th from Highland to Juneau?  I'm assuming it includes that land, as the Ambrosia Chocolate Factory used to be on 6th and Juneau, but I wasn't sure.

[GOO]

From the article linked below, the build site must be currently vacant land or a simple demolition (Journal Building?) with a willing and eager seller.

I take this comment to mean that they don't want to slow down the process with a complex plan that the current arena land would pose:
"There are some obvious sites that we could get today. There are some other things that are a little — just a little — more complex"

So, what this leaves as an option, I'm not sure, but in the article they say they have a site they prefer.

http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/news/2014/09/29/edens-lasry-prefer-one-undisclosedarena-site-hope.html

Maybe I read to much into that quote, on second thought.  Anyway, if it were to land at 4th and Wisconsin, how close is Marquette's new land to the new arena?  A few blocks west and a block south? 

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Is that just the case for the area where the highway stood, or does that also include the land between 4th and 6th from Highland to Juneau?  I'm assuming it includes that land, as the Ambrosia Chocolate Factory used to be on 6th and Juneau, but I wasn't sure.

I don't know specifics... it just came up while we were drinking at happy hour.

I'll paraphrase:

"Building a stadium on that site (park east or near park east) isn't that easy. The soil in that area (low and relatively near the river) is traditionally crappy for large structures, and there is going to be a significant amount of environmental abatement required."

He's in the industry, so he knows what he's talking about, but I know he has not done worked on that specific site. He's simply speculating on what he knows and has heard.

Obviously they figured out how to build the BC and other large structures downtown, so it's possible to build, but keep in mind that it might not be as simple as "build on that empty lot!"

[mu03eng]

I don't know specifics... it just came up while we were drinking at happy hour.

I'll paraphrase:

"Building a stadium on that site (park east or near park east) isn't that easy. The soil in that area (low and relatively near the river) is traditionally crappy for large structures, and there is going to be a significant amount of environmental abatement required."

He's in the industry, so he knows what he's talking about, but I know he has not done worked on that specific site. He's simply speculating on what he knows and has heard.

Obviously they figured out how to build the BC and other large structures downtown, so it's possible to build, but keep in mind that it might not be as simple as "build on that empty lot!"

The folks I talked to are different than yours it seems, but everything you are saying is correct.  Basically they will have to truck everything out of the open area between 6th and just short of Aloft, do environmental remediation, then truck in "good" dirt to build on.  They also might have to do a lot of shoring up in that area as well because of the old waterways to the river in that area.

Apparently, they found a bunch of legacy issues(think 1800s) when they deconstructed the freeway, and they could bury it if it was empty (clearly the cheaper option) but if someone builds on it, it would have to be taken care of.  Another shinning part of the lasting Norquist legacy

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

The folks I talked to are different than yours it seems, but everything you are saying is correct.  Basically they will have to truck everything out of the open area between 6th and just short of Aloft, do environmental remediation, then truck in "good" dirt to build on.  They also might have to do a lot of shoring up in that area as well because of the old waterways to the river in that area.

Apparently, they found a bunch of legacy issues(think 1800s) when they deconstructed the freeway, and they could bury it if it was empty (clearly the cheaper option) but if someone builds on it, it would have to be taken care of.  Another shinning part of the lasting Norquist legacy

Ya, yours sounds more official that mine. :-)... but looks like we are getting to the same place.

It's not impossible to build on that site, and eventually, SOMETHING is going to have to happen (can't be a bare lot forever).

But, it's not an insignificant challenge, and there are likely to be some setbacks with $ and time.

[mu03eng]

Ya, yours sounds more official that mine. :-)... but looks like we are getting to the same place.

It's not impossible to build on that site, and eventually, SOMETHING is going to have to happen (can't be a bare lot forever).

But, it's not an insignificant challenge, and there are likely to be some setbacks with $ and time.

Absolutely.  And what I posted should be the answer to the question when someone asks "How come they haven't built on the Park East site?".  City had a chance to take care of it at the time and chose not to, and now I believe costs would be even higher and as far as I've heard the city is unwilling to "help" with the costs.

Hint: this was part of the reason a major headquarters building did not move to downtown from a place that rhymes with Fenomonee Malls

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Absolutely.  And what I posted should be the answer to the question when someone asks "How come they haven't built on the Park East site?".  City had a chance to take care of it at the time and chose not to, and now I believe costs would be even higher and as far as I've heard the city is unwilling to "help" with the costs.

Hint: this was part of the reason a major headquarters building did not move to downtown from a place that rhymes with Fenomonee Malls

Its too bad that deal didn't work out.

I have no insider info. on the dealings with Milwaukee, but I know a lot of employees, and they wanted to stay up in MF.

I always thought they were just flirting with Milwaukee to get a better deal in MF.

[Spotcheck Billy]

Now the Falls can get them a good deal on a slightly used Radisson

[mu03eng]

Its too bad that deal didn't work out.

I have no insider info. on the dealings with Milwaukee, but I know a lot of employees, and they wanted to stay up in MF.

I always thought they were just flirting with Milwaukee to get a better deal in MF.

That's definitely their side of things.  MKE pushed really hard(not creatively, which was their undoing) but just couldn't come up with an irresistible package.  And their was definitely a difference between what the employees wanted and what management wants.

[MU111]

That's definitely their side of things.  MKE pushed really hard(not creatively, which was their undoing) but just couldn't come up with an irresistible package.  And their was definitely a difference between what the employees wanted and what management wants.

I learned something new because I also assumed they were just holding out for a better deal from the Falls.  Anyway, this is the site that I was asking about earlier.  The Park East didn't run above this area, so I'm wondering if there would be soil problems here, as well.  Sorry if you guys already answered this:

[mu03eng]

I learned something new because I also assumed they were just holding out for a better deal from the Falls.  Anyway, this is the site that I was asking about earlier.  The Park East didn't run above this area, so I'm wondering if there would be soil problems here, as well.  Sorry if you guys already answered this:

I don't know the official answer, but it's a good possibility it would have the same issues.  The soil issues in the Park East corridor aren't necessarily associated with Park East so they might be in that area as well, but I just don't know.

[🏀]

Yes, there would be the same issues. The environmental issues are not due to the Park East, but from long periods of bastardization of the land since the Industrial Revolution. What's worse is contamination can spread to adjacent parcels.

There's two issues with Park East, petroleum and organic. Petroleum contamination happens quite often unfortunately. The entire IH-94 North-South project has dealt with it. Everytime it's found, ask an old farmer and their Uncle Leroy had some gas pumps next to old US-41 there. Organics are from old plank roads, wood foundations or coal-waste dumping. Both contamination needs to be remediated when found and are not suitable for subgrade.

The Contractor has specialty washing of equipment and haul trucks, specialty training and testing and the largest cost, tipping fees for dumping at a landfill. I was told from a DOT official that a 50,000 cubic yard estimate is realistic from the discoveries made when the corridor was removed and the McKinley Interchange was reconstructed.

Can it be done, yes. Is it easy? Eh. Is it expensive? Yes. For standard common excavation on a project this size, $5/CY is a decent budget. For contamination excavation, start at $25/CY and go up.

[jficke13]

I was told from a DOT official that a 50,000 cubic yard estimate is realistic from the discoveries made when the corridor was removed and the McKinley Interchange was reconstructed.

Can it be done, yes. Is it easy? Eh. Is it expensive? Yes. For standard common excavation on a project this size, $5/CY is a decent budget. For contamination excavation, start at $25/CY and go up.

Titan,

Since you seem to know this industry I'd be interested in your opinion on this:

$25/CY x 50,000 = $1.25 million. If the facility is $400 million (I'm rounding down, which should make the remediation cost look worse), then the remediation cost would add what? .3% to the total cost? Is that the kind of additional expense that would cause a project manager to change sites or kill a project over?

[Benny B]

Titan,

Since you seem to know this industry I'd be interested in your opinion on this:

$25/CY x 50,000 = $1.25 million. If the facility is $400 million (I'm rounding down, which should make the remediation cost look worse), then the remediation cost would add what? .3% to the total cost? Is that the kind of additional expense that would cause a project manager to change sites or kill a project over?

It's not just the cost, it's the time involved. 

Even after remediation is performed, the site needs to be retested.  Sometimes the initial remediation efforts fail, and then you have to do it all over again (and then some).  Then there's the matter of getting the EPA to sign off on the certification.  Sometimes it's obvious to the EPA and they turn it around quickly, sometimes there's call for additional investigation/study prior to sign-off.

Remediation can add a few months or a few years to a project, and there's never any date certainty until it's certified.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Titan,

Since you seem to know this industry I'd be interested in your opinion on this:

$25/CY x 50,000 = $1.25 million. If the facility is $400 million (I'm rounding down, which should make the remediation cost look worse), then the remediation cost would add what? .3% to the total cost? Is that the kind of additional expense that would cause a project manager to change sites or kill a project over?

It's a good point, I don't know if the site makes it cost prohibitive (I have no idea on the actual cost), but it's somewhat of a dirty little secret that may or may not get discussed in any sort of proposal.

- If the ownership group and the politicians agree that the Park East area is the best spot, then the public probably won't hear much about the site prep costs and time, because it would likely look bad. They will just talk about how it's common sense to build on that open area and the tax revenue it will generate.

- If they want the arena in another location, then the environmental impact survey will get used as a reason why they ARE NOT building on the Park East site. It will be thrown up as a barrier.

Isn't politics wonderful?

[🏀]

lawwarrior,

Benny B nailed it on the head. It's time consuming. The entire site would need to be remediated prior to any progress taking place. If you're planning on building this thing in stages, you'll still have to get the entire footprint cleaned before it can be certified for further development. You're talking May 2015 through July/August 2015 to get the site ready. That's just moving dirt, no foundation work, utility installation/moves, etc.

Even though it's a minimal amount of dollars in the grand scheme, it's still something that could be saved. Razing the JS building would cost less than $100,000 likely. That cost would not kill the project, but here's also cost to bring clean fill material back on the site. Currently, there's a shortage of that in SE Wisconsin, however there is a Interchange project near the Zoo that is generating lots of material. You're probably looking at $2 million to $2.5 million total.

(Not Titan, stole his name for this Ellenson mumbo-jumbo.)

[jficke13]

lawwarrior,

Benny B nailed it on the head. It's time consuming. The entire site would need to be remediated prior to any progress taking place. If you're planning on building this thing in stages, you'll still have to get the entire footprint cleaned before it can be certified for further development. You're talking May 2015 through July/August 2015 to get the site ready. That's just moving dirt, no foundation work, utility installation/moves, etc.

Even though it's a minimal amount of dollars in the grand scheme, it's still something that could be saved. Razing the JS building would cost less than $100,000 likely. That cost would not kill the project, but here's also cost to bring clean fill material back on the site. Currently, there's a shortage of that in SE Wisconsin, however there is a Interchange project near the Zoo that is generating lots of material. You're probably looking at $2 million to $2.5 million total.

(Not Titan, stole his name for this Ellenson mumbo-jumbo.)

I didn't consider the time issue. That makes perfect sense. At some point if Milwaukee wants it to become something other than desolation they might have to consider preemptively remediating the site.

Also, this is the 1st time the Ellenson name thing has bugged me. Thanks for the input unknown temporary internet name person.

[🏀]

I didn't consider the time issue. That makes perfect sense. At some point if Milwaukee wants it to become something other than desolation they might have to consider preemptively remediating the site.

Also, this is the 1st time the Ellenson name thing has bugged me. Thanks for the input unknown temporary internet name person.

I've got some experience with what the City of Racine has done. They end up buying contaminated sites for $1, bid out contracts to clean them up and get them ready for development. It's worked out well for them, not sure why the Park East can't be done in the same manner. I'm not sure who even owns the property (DOT or the City).


I couldn't work Ellenson in 'PTM' at all, so I went with a tribute to a fallen poster.

[jficke13]

Hmm, didn't realize Titan had left us. I guess it's hard to keep track among the hijacked threads and vendettas... maybe that explains why...

[jficke13]

I've got some experience with what the City of Racine has done. They end up buying contaminated sites for $1, bid out contracts to clean them up and get them ready for development. It's worked out well for them, not sure why the Park East can't be done in the same manner. I'm not sure who even owns the property (DOT or the City).

That seems like a perfect opportunity for some good old fashioned graft/kickbacks to connected insiders. Wow, the city of Milwaukee is even bad at being corrupt.

[MU111]

I've got some experience with what the City of Racine has done. They end up buying contaminated sites for $1, bid out contracts to clean them up and get them ready for development. It's worked out well for them, not sure why the Park East can't be done in the same manner. I'm not sure who even owns the property (DOT or the City).


I couldn't work Ellenson in 'PTM' at all, so I went with a tribute to a fallen poster.

I believe all of the Park East land west of the river is actually owned by Milwaukee County (the city-owned land is mostly east of the river).  The County owning the land explains for a lot of the ineptitude surrounding getting it redeveloped.

[4everwarriors]

Hmm, didn't realize Titan had left us. I guess it's hard to keep track among the hijacked threads and vendettas... maybe that explains why...

Yeah, he took a hiatus and went to work for Dodds.

[🏀]

Yeah, he took a hiatus and went to work for Dodds.

Yeah, making highlight reels for him on the long train ride home.