Grand Avenue- New Arena Site?

[MUfan12]

Makes a lot of sense, IMO. The loss of all the airbrushed t-shirt stands will be tough to take, though.

http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/blog/2014/07/tear-down-grand-avenue-build-arena-there-gary-witt.html?ana=twt&page=all

[GGGG]

One of the issues they would have to deal with is the TIF financing they just gave to Boston Store to keep their downtown site often.

[The Lens]

Regardless of what happens, people are starting to mention the best solution for fixing the Grand Ave...demolition.

[🏀]

These aren't cool anymore?

[GooooMarquette]

I like the idea.  Great location, and puts the mall out of everyone's misery.  Shame, though - it was a pretty nice mall when they opened it up 30+ years ago.

[chapman]

Would be pretty cool.  Hell, the arena could probably still serve the couple dozen that make up the lunch crowd during the day.  The one Office Max customer each week will be SOL though.

[keefe]

Is "Grand Avenue" the street or is this a mall?

[LloydMooresLegs]

Indoor mall on Wissconsin at the river

[real chili 83]

When they put in that mall, I lost my favorite gyro joint. 

Damn the mall. 

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

Would be great to tear down that mall. In fact, I like the idea of tearing down anything in MKE that is an eyesore.

[keefe]

I looked at a map. When I was at Marquette that stretch of WI Ave was a series of adult book stores, wig shops, and parking lots.

[tower912]

IMO, the Grand Avenue Mall was a great idea at the time.   A truly outside the box experiment with the mall concept.   It worked for a time.    But then demographics and shopping patterns changed.    Plus, paying for parking, when the same stores were in another mall 20 minutes away with free parking, was always going to be difficult to overcome. 

[4everwarriors]

I looked at a map. When I was at Marquette that stretch of WI Ave was a series of adult book stores, wig shops, and parking lots.

Still is. Just put a roof over it.

[ChicosBailBonds]

IMO, the Grand Avenue Mall was a great idea at the time.   A truly outside the box experiment with the mall concept.   It worked for a time.    But then demographics and shopping patterns changed.    Plus, paying for parking, when the same stores were in another mall 20 minutes away with free parking, was always going to be difficult to overcome. 

Shame, when I was a student it was a nice place to go shopping, but that was 20 some years ago.  Didn't realize it had fallen so far out of favor. 

When you say demographics changed, are you suggesting that certain folks didn't want to shop downtown because certain folks were shopping downtown?

[real chili 83]

Not a lot of fun when you have to run the gauntlet on the sidewalk out front.

[4everwarriors]

They should blow the sumbitch up, hey?

[chapman]

Not a lot of fun when you have to run the gauntlet on the sidewalk out front.

[🏀]

Nailed it.

[Benny B]

Californ-ya-ya.  Super cool to the homeless.

[muhoosier260]

If they could somehow fit a new arena somewhere between 5th and Plankinton on Wisc. avenue, I think it would be pretty cool. Two downsides (I'm sure there are others): Wisconsin avenue will get pretty congested, and it's only two lanes, also, there is not really any bar scene to speak of surrounding that area. Yes, water st. and 3rd are within stumbling distance, I just don't think there would be much of an atmosphere in the immediate vicinity. I'm sure the Hilton would love it though. 

[MU82]

My freshman year, I worked as an usher at the Grand Theatre. Is it still there?

I remember that The Wiz showed for about 6 months. If I had a gun handy, I would have blown my brains out.

At the end of the night, we were allowed to take some popcorn home. I used to get one of those big, long boxes the popcorn containers arrive in, take out all the containers, and then fill it with popcorn, drizzling the fake butter on the popcorn every foot or so.

I'd ride the bus back to McCormick carrying the box 'o corn. We had one guy on my floor, a complete stoner, who always knew my schedule. I'd step off the elevator and he would be there to greet me so he could get that popcorn!

[keefe]

We had one guy on my floor, a complete stoner

hey, man! like I know that dude!

Every floor had "The Stoner." It was as if it was programmed for every floor to have at least one.

[4everwarriors]

My freshman year, I worked as an usher at the Grand Theatre. Is it still there?

I remember that The Wiz showed for about 6 months. If I had a gun handy, I would have blown my brains out.

At the end of the night, we were allowed to take some popcorn home. I used to get one of those big, long boxes the popcorn containers arrive in, take out all the containers, and then fill it with popcorn, drizzling the fake butter on the popcorn every foot or so.

I'd ride the bus back to McCormick carrying the box 'o corn. We had one guy on my floor, a complete stoner, who always knew my schedule. I'd step off the elevator and he would be there to greet me so he could get that popcorn!

Sure that wasn't the Princess?

[StillAWarrior]

Would be great to tear down that mall. In fact, I like the idea of tearing down anything in MKE that is an eyesore.

I'd miss McCormick.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Honestly, I think it's a terrible idea.

I know people love to hate Grand Ave, and it's pretty easy to do.

However, now that the mall has officially bottomed out, I think there are a lot of cool uses for that space (and some are already happening).

Business incubation, possible housing, entertainment, shopping, food, etc.

The traditional "urban mall" is dead, but I think there is still a big opportunity for that building if they can evolve it. Put condos up top, businesses down low, and mixed retail/bars/grocery in the middle. It's not unlike what they are doing at the Pabst Brewery (mixed housing/retail/business).

It's a long term vision, but I think it's a better investment than just knocking it down for another arena, which would basically gut the current arena neighborhood.

Grand Ave has potential, but it's going to be some time before they figure out how it's all going to work.

[Ari Gold]

I'm with Ammo here. The Plankington Arcade section of the mall is an amazing structure that is woefully under-appreciated -hardly an eyesore.



I'm still a supporter of a combined new arena and WCD convention facility -which needs an addition if it wants to attract major events. there's some space that can be used that is currently a parking lot between the -former- Midwest Express center and the -former- Cell
though relocating the JS building for an arena... theres an idea

[GGGG]

The suggestion in the Biz Journal was that the Plankinton Building would be saved.  That it would be located basically between 2nd and 5th.

[keefe]

Sure that wasn't the Princess?

Man, was that that Art House on 3rd? I remember we had a floor field trip there from McCormick. Couple guys did actually hit the concession stand and bought popcorn. I hope they didn't ask for butter...

[mu03eng]

I still think the better route is in combination with the convention center like I think Ammo said.  Accomplishes multiple things in a positive manner.  Using Grand Ave eliminates potentially a negative but only gives a positive while creating a negative else where(what to do with the stadium "district")

Grand Ave needs to become something else and if only city leadership could get craniumanalectomies and start working with developers in a serious way I think it could become something else.  As a sole retail space its done, thats for sure.

[chapman]

The suggestion in the Biz Journal was that the Plankinton Building would be saved. 

Important for the arena to not be blocked by Maxxinistas of the downtown Milwaukee area.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

Honestly, I think it's a terrible idea.

I know people love to hate Grand Ave, and it's pretty easy to do.

However, now that the mall has officially bottomed out, I think there are a lot of cool uses for that space (and some are already happening).

Business incubation, possible housing, entertainment, shopping, food, etc.

The traditional "urban mall" is dead, but I think there is still a big opportunity for that building if they can evolve it. Put condos up top, businesses down low, and mixed retail/bars/grocery in the middle. It's not unlike what they are doing at the Pabst Brewery (mixed housing/retail/business).

It's a long term vision, but I think it's a better investment than just knocking it down for another arena, which would basically gut the current arena neighborhood.

Grand Ave has potential, but it's going to be some time before they figure out how it's all going to work.

Exactly this.  Locally, New Haven has lead the way (other large Conn. cities have since followed) by converting a former mall (like the Grand Ave.), former downtown factories and historic buildings to apartments on the upper floors with ground level shops & restaurants.  There's been a number of studies that what makes a city most "livable" is this type of housing/retail arrangement.  And every single project, the apartments were sold out before the conversion was even finished.  New Haven is in-process of something else now also and they admit to copying the idea from Milwaukee of ripping out a portion of a highway and reinstating city streets and blocks instead.  The new home of Alexion Pharmaceuticals is rising in the middle of where Rt-34 once ran.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Exactly this.  Locally, New Haven has lead the way (other large Conn. cities have since followed) by converting a former mall (like the Grand Ave.), former downtown factories and historic buildings to apartments on the upper floors with ground level shops & restaurants.  There's been a number of studies that what makes a city most "livable" is this type of housing/retail arrangement.  And every single project, the apartments were sold out before the conversion was even finished.  New Haven is in-process of something else now also and they admit to copying the idea from Milwaukee of ripping out a portion of a highway and reinstating city streets and blocks instead.  The new home of Alexion Pharmaceuticals is rising in the middle of where Rt-34 once ran.

Ya, and Grand Ave won't be easy because there is a lot of crap tied to it right now (acquired debt, existing leases, infrastructure, etc.). Might be another handful of years before they really bottom out and you can get somebody to buy it cheap enough to make the project like this work.

But, the beautiful thing about the mall really bottoming out is that it creates opportunity to do something else with the space.

You could offer favorable leases and office sharing for small business/consultants. Rent meeting space out for the same type of clientele. That would at least get things started and help fill some of the spaces (they are already doing some of this).

For retail, it's going to be tough, but somebody with a larger vision has to come in and figure out how to sell the retail spaces to a mix of national and mostly local retailers. Think Milwaukee Public Market on steroids (maybe food, local products, antiques, some chain retail, etc.) It's a tough sell because the clientele isn't there yet... but if you do it right, they will be.

Condos, well, Milwaukee has a ton of them, but living in the upper level of grand ave would be far more unique than just living in another cookie cutter "modern loft".

Also, MU business school should get involved if possible. Maybe even have some grad classes down there, or an incubation program & space for recent grads?

[MUfan12]

In an ideal world, I'd love a nice mix of retail/residential in that area. The problem right now is erasing the stigma of that area to get people to live there. That process will take far longer than developing the mall area once it bottoms out.

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

Honestly, I think it's a terrible idea.

I know people love to hate Grand Ave, and it's pretty easy to do.

However, now that the mall has officially bottomed out, I think there are a lot of cool uses for that space (and some are already happening).

Business incubation, possible housing, entertainment, shopping, food, etc.

The traditional "urban mall" is dead, but I think there is still a big opportunity for that building if they can evolve it. Put condos up top, businesses down low, and mixed retail/bars/grocery in the middle. It's not unlike what they are doing at the Pabst Brewery (mixed housing/retail/business).

It's a long term vision, but I think it's a better investment than just knocking it down for another arena, which would basically gut the current arena neighborhood.

Grand Ave has potential, but it's going to be some time before they figure out how it's all going to work.

It sounds like you are suggesting ... Grand Ave ... as a solution to Grand Ave. 

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

In an ideal world, I'd love a nice mix of retail/residential in that area. The problem right now is erasing the stigma of that area to get people to live there. That process will take far longer than developing the mall area once it bottoms out.

+1 Anything west of the river (plus about one block) has a stench to it.

[GGGG]

Isn't the "westown" area undergoing a bit of a revival?

[MUfan12]

Isn't the "westown" area undergoing a bit of a revival?

If it is, it's a small one. I don't live far from there, and I don't see much changing.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

In an ideal world, I'd love a nice mix of retail/residential in that area. The problem right now is erasing the stigma of that area to get people to live there. That process will take far longer than developing the mall area once it bottoms out.

Correct.

Changing the persona of the mall will be tough. It will take somebody with some vision to really drive that process.

I actually know some of the people renting space and working there now, and they really like it (rent is cheap, and it's a cool old building).

They probably have to start at a grassroots level and get some younger people in there and working, and then building up from there.

[tower912]

I really like the mixed use concept for that space.   As the picture from ari shows, there is still some really classy architecture in there.   It's time as a mall is past.   There is nothing wrong with the idea of condo's, offices, specialty retail.   It would probably require less work than some other ideas.   

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

It sounds like you are suggesting ... Grand Ave ... as a solution to Grand Ave. 

In a way, yes.

An urban mall isn't a bad idea in this climate... but an urban mall can't be what it used to be.

You can't depend upon commuters coming from brookfield to go shopping there. It's ain't gonna happen.

BUT

If you CAN come up with a space that mixes living, working, eating, shopping etc. all under one roof, that's pretty attractive because it will be busy all of the time (great for retailers), and it's super convenient for tenants and employees.

Plus, if you can put unique retail in that space, then you can attract some people from other parts of town. I wouldn't go to grand ave to go to Old Navy, but I might go to Grand Ave if they had a specialty (insert cool thing) store, or maybe they have retailer hours until midnight, so people could shop after dinner (other major cities have such retail districts).

[brandx]

Correct.

Changing the persona of the mall will be tough. It will take somebody with some vision to really drive that process.

I actually know some of the people renting space and working there now, and they really like it (rent is cheap, and it's a cool old building).

They probably have to start at a grassroots level and get some younger people in there and working, and then building up from there.

I don't know that Milwaukee can ever accomplish these things. I think it will take an outside group to do so.

That's what is so great about the sale of the Bucks. Here we have guys who want to invest about a half billion dollars in downtown infrastructure and people still complain that they aren't doing enough.

But people living in Milwaukee are so locked into a certain mindset - whether it is over the Mall or a new arena - that they are unable to see the big picture and the growth that is possible with change.

[mu03eng]

I don't know that Milwaukee can ever accomplish these things. I think it will take an outside group to do so.

That's what is so great about the sale of the Bucks. Here we have guys who want to invest about a half billion dollars in downtown infrastructure and people still complain that they aren't doing enough.

But people living in Milwaukee are so locked into a certain mindset - whether it is over the Mall or a new arena - that they are unable to see the big picture and the growth that is possible with change.

Is it the people or the local governments?  I mean that seriously.  Everyone I've talked to...and I talk to a lot of people, is pro-new arena(with financing caveats of various types) and see's the possibility of whats could happen.  The probably is the leadership in Milwaukee has no vision and no ability to speak to anything other than stale talking points.  They never think outside of the box or try to float things out there and get people behind it.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I don't know that Milwaukee can ever accomplish these things. I think it will take an outside group to do so.

That's what is so great about the sale of the Bucks. Here we have guys who want to invest about a half billion dollars in downtown infrastructure and people still complain that they aren't doing enough.

But people living in Milwaukee are so locked into a certain mindset - whether it is over the Mall or a new arena - that they are unable to see the big picture and the growth that is possible with change.

I don't know if I agree.

Look at the Menominee valley. or Bayshore, or 3rd ward, or brady st, or walker's point, or brewers hill, Harley Museum etc.

There are a lot of areas that have been changed/improved over the years. Pabst brewery is going through it right now.

But, there are still the basic laws of cost, supply and demand. There has been increased demand for hotel rooms, so you're seeing more hotels. There was a demand for higher end retail, so you saw bayshore get completely renovated. There is a demand for new restaurants, so walker's point is growing and improving with each new place that opens (rent is cheaper in Walker's Point).

You get the picture. Milwaukee isn't experiencing a huge Renaissance, but I think it's going through the normal ebbs and flows of a aging American city. There isn't the automatic demand that there is in Chicago, so sometimes projects take some time. The Pabst is prime Real Estate and sat empty for years. That would never happen in Chicago, but it does happen here. There has to be demand before private dollars are going to come invest. 

Personally, I'm okay with the city/state investing in infrastructure that will help the city. However, critically, I'm skeptical that 500million in a NBA arena really accomplishes what people think it does.

[brandx]

Is it the people or the local governments?  I mean that seriously.  Everyone I've talked to...and I talk to a lot of people, is pro-new arena(with financing caveats of various types) and see's the possibility of whats could happen.  The probably is the leadership in Milwaukee has no vision and no ability to speak to anything other than stale talking points.  They never think outside of the box or try to float things out there and get people behind it.

Yeah, absolutely - the gov't is the #1 problem.

As far as people - it is more those outside of the city limits that don't want to spend a dime of tax money to improve the city - no matter the ROI.

[brandx]

I don't know if I agree.

Look at the Menominee valley. or Bayshore, or 3rd ward, or brady st, or walker's point, or brewers hill, Harley Museum etc.

There are a lot of areas that have been changed/improved over the years. Pabst brewery is going through it right now.

But, there are still the basic laws of cost, supply and demand. There has been increased demand for hotel rooms, so you're seeing more hotels. There was a demand for higher end retail, so you saw bayshore get completely renovated. There is a demand for new restaurants, so walker's point is growing and improving with each new place that opens (rent is cheaper in Walker's Point).

You get the picture. Milwaukee isn't experiencing a huge Renaissance, but I think it's going through the normal ebbs and flows of a aging American city. There isn't the automatic demand that there is in Chicago, so sometimes projects take some time. The Pabst is prime Real Estate and sat empty for years. That would never happen in Chicago, but it does happen here. There has to be demand before private dollars are going to come invest. 

Personally, I'm okay with the city/state investing in infrastructure that will help the city. However, critically, I'm skeptical that 500million in a NBA arena really accomplishes what people think it does.

I don't live in Milwaukee, so I don't know. But I wonder how much of the money and drive is coming from the city itself and how much comes from outside investors who see opportunities.

There is a major investment about to take place in downtown Racine, but it is driven by outside investors. Don't know if it is that way with the improvements that you mentioned in Milwaukee.

[77ncaachamps]

Nice place for an arena.

But is the ground stable enough?

Near a train station...near a conflux of highways...

could revitalize downtown life and the riverway...

Love the Plankington dome. Hope they could keep it.

They need to demolish some of the buildings and retrofit to swankier downtown living...

[🏀]

There is a major investment about to take place in downtown Racine, but it is driven by outside investors. Don't know if it is that way with the improvements that you mentioned in Milwaukee.

The major Racine development has to be the worst idea I've ever seen. This will not end up good.

[🏀]

But is the ground stable enough?

We can make anything hard.

...

...

[Benny B]

Nice place for an arena.

But is the ground stable enough?

Near a train station...near a conflux of highways...

could revitalize downtown life and the riverway...

Love the Plankington dome. Hope they could keep it.

They need to demolish some of the buildings and retrofit to swankier downtown living...

Incidentally, I've been told that from an engineering standpoint, it's easier to build something close to the lake than it is on the west side of the river.

Google "pile rot" and "Milwaukee"

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I don't live in Milwaukee, so I don't know. But I wonder how much of the money and drive is coming from the city itself and how much comes from outside investors who see opportunities.

There is a major investment about to take place in downtown Racine, but it is driven by outside investors. Don't know if it is that way with the improvements that you mentioned in Milwaukee.

The neighborhoods/items I'm referring to are mostly private dollars. I'm sure the city has some tax friendly deals for these developments as well, but it's not as friendly as something like the Bucks are proposing, or a straight up tax payer funded initiative (like the new library on the east side, or art museum, etc.)

I don't think Milwaukee has progressive or visionary politicians, but I'm not sure if many cities do.

The visionaries and investments normally comes from the private sector, and that usually gets drummed up when there is enough demand for a product.

That's actually why I hate the NBA business model. They don't have enough demand to generate enough revenue, so they lean on public funding to make it profitable for them. Taxpayers subsidize the building under the guise that it "helps milwaukee". I'm sure it does help, but I dunno if its $500million worth of help.

[🏀]

Incidentally, I've been told that from an engineering standpoint, it's easier to build something close to the lake than it is on the west side of the river.

Google "pile rot" and "Milwaukee"

Sand.

Seriously though, it can be built anywhere. Just costs more, which in the grand scheme isn't an issue.

[Coleman]

I like the idea.  Great location, and puts the mall out of everyone's misery.  Shame, though - it was a pretty nice mall when they opened it up 30+ years ago.

It actually wasn't even a bad mall 8-10 years ago when I was a student. It was probably still 90% occupied, with some decent stores, a little food court, etc. Not bad for a walk from campus. Agree that the arcade is beautiful. I would like to see the mall saved in some form, even if it means changing the character of the mall (adding residential space for example)

What about the massive gravel pit next to the Bradley Center? What are they going to do with that?

[4everwarriors]

Man, was that that Art House on 3rd? I remember we had a floor field trip there from McCormick. Couple guys did actually hit the concession stand and bought popcorn. I hope they didn't ask for butter...

That was it. Sure don't build theaters like that no more, hey?

[muwarrior69]

Would be great to tear down that mall. In fact, I like the idea of tearing down anything in MKE that is an eyesore.

Eyesores? When I attended MU in the 60s the entire campus was an eyesore. In fact I43 did not even exist; they started digging that in the spring of 66. Across Schrader on the east side of 13th was a row of Victorian Homes; by the fall of 66 they were all gone. If my memory serves me right I believe there was a Walgreens ( or another drugstore) where the AL is now; and across Wells from the AL was a laundromat. On the corner of 13th and West Wisconsin was a small grill.  On the north side of Wells going west just about every house or business was being torn down save the Avalanche. My Sophomore year all the houses between 14th and 15th street which now no longer exist were being torn down as well to make room for the Joan of Arc Chapel and the Weir Chemistry Building. In the fall of 66 they broke ground for McCormick tearing down the old Knights of Columbus Building. The entire campus looked like a war zone with all the demolition and new construction. They had a model of what the University was to look like by the end of the 70s in the Brooks Memorial Union. To those of us attending then in just looked like a dream. Back then the downtown area was still a center of commercial activity. As a member of the MU Chorus we sang Christmas carols in the Boston Store Restaurant on Friday and Saturday evenings during the holidays. The place was packed with shoppers. I always enjoyed walking to the lakefront in early fall and late spring; classes did not end until the first week of June back then.

[chapman]

Incidentally, I've been told that from an engineering standpoint, it's easier to build something close to the lake than it is on the west side of the river.

Google "pile rot" and "Milwaukee"

First result is this story/video, less than a week old.  Interesting:  http://fox6now.com/2014/07/23/the-sinking-city-dozens-of-buildings-in-milwaukee-sinking-theres-a-problem-and-its-deep-underground/

[Spotcheck Billy]

First result is this story/video, less than a week old.  Interesting:  http://fox6now.com/2014/07/23/the-sinking-city-dozens-of-buildings-in-milwaukee-sinking-theres-a-problem-and-its-deep-underground/

so not really a problem for new construction

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

FWIW, I have a friend who works in the soil sciences, and he said that building at the park east location is WAAAAAAY more work than anybody wants to admit (soil structure, contamination, etc.).

It's going to be a significant cost. Maybe not cost prohibitive for a 500million dollar stadium, but most likely the city is going to have to pay for the site prep, and it ain't going to be cheap or fast.

I guess we'll see what happens.

[Ari Gold]

In an ideal world, I'd love a nice mix of retail/residential in that area. The problem right now is erasing the stigma of that area to get people to live there. That process will take far longer than developing the mall area once it bottoms out.

ideally yes, but the Moderne is new, the Pabst is new, the Couture is moving forward, there is a new Mandel (I think) complex being built by the Pick and Save on Van Buren and there is consideration for a new 30 story complex on Kil and Van Buren (http://www.jsonline.com/business/downtown-high-rise-apartment-development-eyed-b99317679z1-268505962.html). Even the article questions market saturation. (aside, Kashian sounded like a horses ass on 620 when he was on). if any of these places hit a snag, waiting for the mall to bottom out might happen before the market develops a need for new residential.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

ideally yes, but the Moderne is new, the Pabst is new, the Couture is moving forward, there is a new Mandel (I think) complex being built by the Pick and Save on Van Buren and there is consideration for a new 30 story complex on Kil and Van Buren (http://www.jsonline.com/business/downtown-high-rise-apartment-development-eyed-b99317679z1-268505962.html). Even the article questions market saturation. (aside, Kashian sounded like a horses ass on 620 when he was on). if any of these places hit a snag, waiting for the mall to bottom out might happen before the market develops a need for new residential.

I feel like Milwaukee reached the condo saturation point 5 years ago, but there continues to be new developments put up... so maybe I don't know anything. 

I don't know if market saturation would necessarily impact a Grand Ave. residential development simply because of it's uniqueness. It just offers something that no other building in the area can offer.*

*This assumes that they are able to get decent retail and office space rented out in the building as well.

[GooooMarquette]

Honestly, I think it's a terrible idea.

I know people love to hate Grand Ave, and it's pretty easy to do.

However, now that the mall has officially bottomed out, I think there are a lot of cool uses for that space (and some are already happening).

Business incubation, possible housing, entertainment, shopping, food, etc.

The traditional "urban mall" is dead, but I think there is still a big opportunity for that building if they can evolve it. Put condos up top, businesses down low, and mixed retail/bars/grocery in the middle. It's not unlike what they are doing at the Pabst Brewery (mixed housing/retail/business).

It's a long term vision, but I think it's a better investment than just knocking it down for another arena, which would basically gut the current arena neighborhood.

Grand Ave has potential, but it's going to be some time before they figure out how it's all going to work.

I'd love it if someone has a plan like that - and financing to do it - for Grand Ave.  If something like that is in the works, great!

But I would not forego a plan to put an arena there (assuming it's approved and that's the site that's chosen) based solely on the possibility that someone might someday come along with a good idea that might work, and then they might someday find someone who can cover the cost.  Way too many "maybes" to pass up other opportunities.

[mu03eng]

I feel like Milwaukee reached the condo saturation point 5 years ago, but there continues to be new developments put up... so maybe I don't know anything. 

I don't know if market saturation would necessarily impact a Grand Ave. residential development simply because of it's uniqueness. It just offers something that no other building in the area can offer.*

*This assumes that they are able to get decent retail and office space rented out in the building as well.

I think the condo market is completely saturated but I do think there are still plenty of opportunities for mid to high level apartments.  A lot of millennials are starting to get some funds to get a nice place but none of them want to own a place.  Same with the baby boomers retiring.  They want to live downtown/eastside but they don't want to deal with a condo.

Again this is where it would be great if there was some sort of government group that was actually focused on the total picture...unfortunately they are not.

[Ari Gold]

I feel like Milwaukee reached the condo saturation point 5 years ago, but there continues to be new developments put up... so maybe I don't know anything. 

I don't know if market saturation would necessarily impact a Grand Ave. residential development simply because of it's uniqueness. It just offers something that no other building in the area can offer.*

*This assumes that they are able to get decent retail and office space rented out in the building as well.

I dont know if its a statistical fact or just a presumption that a large portion of the demand for condos and apartments in Milwaukee is from former suburbanites and now empty-nesters that are moving back into the city. they've got retirement money and don't want to deal with the upkeep of a large home and yard. If that is in fact the case, the market may hold out for awhile

--
Revisiting the idea of a Grand Ave arena (While I am still in favor of a Convention center + Arena combo on the location of the Current Wis center and former Cell) building it on that location but keeping the plankington arcade for retail and service plus sports corporate and a quasi-field house would be neat, and the city will have the opportunity to extend the skywalk from the (yet to be built) couture building all the way through Grad Ave and the convention center.
Also you put the Arena on that part of Wisconsin ave, you'd have your catalyst project for reviving Wisconsin ave all the way to the river.  And hell a grand ave arena might make a street car to the 3rd ward + Pabst + North Ave viable.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I think the condo market is completely saturated but I do think there are still plenty of opportunities for mid to high level apartments.  A lot of millennials are starting to get some funds to get a nice place but none of them want to own a place.  Same with the baby boomers retiring.  They want to live downtown/eastside but they don't want to deal with a condo.

Again this is where it would be great if there was some sort of government group that was actually focused on the total picture...unfortunately they are not.

Well, not to sound all Libertarian, but if there is a market for it, for-profit companies will figure it out, right? I have a feeling the government would unnatural carnal knowledge this stuff up.

Now, with this said, if there was a government funded think-tank that projected city planning out 20, 50, 100 years, then yes, I wish they would spend more time and money with that. I think long term vision is lacking in today's politicians. They just want to make it through the next election cycle. I'd like to see some more long term planning.

[MU111]

Now, with this said, if there was a government funded think-tank that projected city planning out 20, 50, 100 years, then yes, I wish they would spend more time and money with that. I think long term vision is lacking in today's politicians. They just want to make it through the next election cycle. I'd like to see some more long term planning.

As an urban planner, I agree with this.

[🏀]

As an urban planner, I agree with this.

Ken Yunker for the win.

[Ari Gold]

http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/news/2014/07/30/cargill-closing-milwaukee-slaughterhouse-cutting.html?ana=twt

Obvious downside is losing 600 jobs, but  the plan to move the arena to the valley might actually be on the table: http://urbanmilwaukee.com/2014/07/11/op-ed-build-nba-arena-next-to-potawatomi-casino/
Zepnick's plan isn't that bad. I do love me some TIFs however... and he calls it the NCAA playoffs

[mu03eng]

Well, not to sound all Libertarian, but if there is a market for it, for-profit companies will figure it out, right? I have a feeling the government would unnatural carnal knowledge this stuff up.

Now, with this said, if there was a government funded think-tank that projected city planning out 20, 50, 100 years, then yes, I wish they would spend more time and money with that. I think long term vision is lacking in today's politicians. They just want to make it through the next election cycle. I'd like to see some more long term planning.

I'm with you on your first paragraph, but ideal the zoning and city planning commissions are suppose to handle this sort of thing.  The for-profit companies can proposal all they want, but unless they have permits projects won't go anywhere.  So techincally I misstated as there is nominally a government agency that controls this stuff, but they are already unnatural carnal knowledged it all up already.

[GOO]

I dont know if its a statistical fact or just a presumption that a large portion of the demand for condos and apartments in Milwaukee is from former suburbanites and now empty-nesters that are moving back into the city. they've got retirement money and don't want to deal with the upkeep of a large home and yard. If that is in fact the case, the market may hold out for awhile

--
Revisiting the idea of a Grand Ave arena (While I am still in favor of a Convention center + Arena combo on the location of the Current Wis center and former Cell) building it on that location but keeping the plankington arcade for retail and service plus sports corporate and a quasi-field house would be neat, and the city will have the opportunity to extend the skywalk from the (yet to be built) couture building all the way through Grad Ave and the convention center.
Also you put the Arena on that part of Wisconsin ave, you'd have your catalyst project for reviving Wisconsin ave all the way to the river.  And hell a grand ave arena might make a street car to the 3rd ward + Pabst + North Ave viable.

I am not a fan of the Valley location.  To hard to get in and out of, and it isolates it as far as walking to and from the arena... it would be all drive and park... Geographically close to MU, but a long, long way away to walk to it.. who wants to walk a viaduct and steps up and down, especially if your older. 

The Valley location may happen, as I'd guess the casino would kick in some money to get it built there... maybe in exchange for having the politicians kill the possible Kenosha casino. It would benefit the casino, which is really not good for other Milwaukee businesses, of course.

I actually like the Grand Ave location.  Plankington Building stays. It would take up the empty parking lot east of the Hilton, which means it is directly across from the convention center (location would be the parking lot and part of the west part of the Grand Ave Mall - Boston Store and Boston Store apartments).  So a skywalk to the convention center is a no brainer then.  This location will give the best benefit and best opportunity for use of the arena by the convention center when games are not going on.

The bars and restaurants will come.  The Bucks owners will probably get a piece of land around it to develop. That is one way to help "finance" this thing.  Let them develop some land around it.

Plus, the big advantage of the Grand Ave location - it puts it very close to MU.  Straight line down Wisconsin Ave. A very easy walk down Wisconsin Ave for students and Alumni.  Really would lead to a lot of money being spent at locations on/near MU's campus pre and post game.  A couple of buses continuously running up and down Wisconsin Ave from the arena to 16th Street pre and post game.  Could generate some serious business for MU and MU bars/restaurants.  A few more would be opening, I'd think. 

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I am not a fan of the Valley location.  To hard to get in and out of, and it isolates it as far as walking to and from the arena... it would be all drive and park... Geographically close to MU, but a long, long way away to walk to it.. who wants to walk a viaduct and steps up and down, especially if your older. 

The Valley location may happen, as I'd guess the casino would kick in some money to get it built there... maybe in exchange for having the politicians kill the possible Kenosha casino. It would benefit the casino, which is really not good for other Milwaukee businesses, of course.

I actually like the Grand Ave location.  Plankington Building stays. It would take up the empty parking lot east of the Hilton, which means it is directly across from the convention center (location would be the parking lot and part of the west part of the Grand Ave Mall - Boston Store and Boston Store apartments).  So a skywalk to the convention center is a no brainer then.  This location will give the best benefit and best opportunity for use of the arena by the convention center when games are not going on.

The bars and restaurants will come.  The Bucks owners will probably get a piece of land around it to develop. That is one way to help "finance" this thing.  Let them develop some land around it.

Plus, the big advantage of the Grand Ave location - it puts it very close to MU.  Straight line down Wisconsin Ave. A very easy walk down Wisconsin Ave for students and Alumni.  Really would lead to a lot of money being spent at locations on/near MU's campus pre and post game.  A couple of buses continuously running up and down Wisconsin Ave from the arena to 16th Street pre and post game.  Could generate some serious business for MU and MU bars/restaurants.  A few more would be opening, I'd think. 

You're not wrong, but I think it's just rearranging the deck chairs, and that's part of the problem.

You spend $500million and get all of this new "growth", but then the BC neighborhood gets gutted and essentially makes the city a doughnut with nothing in the middle (west of the river, east of the courthouse would be empty. I mean, literally, there wouldn't be any people down there ever.).

Now, if they can come up with a larger city plan, then I guess it could work.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I'm with you on your first paragraph, but ideal the zoning and city planning commissions are suppose to handle this sort of thing.  The for-profit companies can proposal all they want, but unless they have permits projects won't go anywhere.  So techincally I misstated as there is nominally a government agency that controls this stuff, but they are already unnatural carnal knowledged it all up already.

Agree 100%.

I don't really want politicians giving away $, but they should be promoting/giving away opportunities for business' to come in and make money.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Haven't been to grand ave since the hooters closed.

[MU111]

I just stumbled upon this: http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/news/2014/07/30/bucks-owners-lasry-edens-raising-84-5m-from.html

I realize all of that $85 million from new investors won't go toward the arena, but if it did, we'd be up to $300 million at this point.  I'll be curious to see how much private financing we'll end up with.

[Benny B]

I think the condo market is completely saturated but I do think there are still plenty of opportunities for mid to high level apartments.  A lot of millennials are starting to get some funds to get a nice place but none of them want to own a place.  Same with the baby boomers retiring.  They want to live downtown/eastside but they don't want to deal with a condo.

Again this is where it would be great if there was some sort of government group that was actually focused on the total picture...unfortunately they are not.

Don't worry... the private sector is working on it.  I'm quite optimistic that the first of several projects on this front will be announced in the next 30-60 days.

[keefe]

That was it. Sure don't build theaters like that no more, hey?

That place was straight out of Taxi Driver. If you think about the Darwinian Food Chain the Princess was done in by VCRs which were in turn killed off by the Internet. I blame Al Gore, quite frankly.