Wade's Ex-Teammate LeBron Passes Jordan for GOAT; 11:33 p.m. Tweet Makes Nev #1

[Galway Eagle]

They did.  With basically two different teams.  In his first run, he had Pippen, Grant, and Cartwright with the greats of Paxson and BJ Armstrong. 

In the second run, he had Pippen, Rodman, Harper, Longley, Kukoc.  This being the teams most remember. 

During those runs he beat teams like
NY - Ewing, Jackson, Greg Anthony, Doc River, Mason, Oakley
Pacers - Miller, Mullen, Rose, Jackson
Lakers - Magic, Worthy, Valdy
Piston - Thomas, Laimbeer, Dumars, Rodman
Magic - Shaq, Penny, Nick Anderson
Suns - Barkley, Kevin Johnson, Ainge
Jazz, - Malone, Stockton
Portland - Clyde Drexler, Ainge, Duckworth

That is the whose who of NBA Superstars.

Was referring to good teams lebron had to beat. He did beat MVP Rose in the playoffs

[auburnmarquette]

I look at trying to name the GOAT as a fun debate.  I don't take it too seriously but I can see the viewpoints of those who think it doesn't matter or comparing across eras being difficult.  The game changes with time, plus it is hard to have an opinion of players you never see.

That said, I'll vote Kareem as the GOAT (even though I only saw the later part of his career).

6 titles
10 Finals
6 MVPs
2 Finals MVPs
#1 all time scoring
#1 all time win shares (career)
#1 win shares (single season)
3 of top 7 single season win shares (Jordan's best was 9th)

Have to admit, that last point makes a pretty strong case for Kareem. Still sticking with LeBron, but I do believe Win Shares are the best measurement to compare eras, which is why I went "Win Credits" in the Marquette book. However, it later occurred to me that in Marquette's cases it wasn't as accurate because the wins were so much harder to get once we were in the Big East and the schedule was so much tougher. But for the NBA, that is a great closing argument.

[MerrittsMustache]

See below.

You give off the impression of sour grapes when Auburn (who is the best advanced stats guy IMO) does a write up on why Lebron is the GOAT including all the advanced stats that he is known for and your response is to immediately throw shade at the entire Eastern Conference for a decade.  I get it, you're a Chicago guy.  You'll defend the bulls and MJ until the day you die and nothing will change your mind.

Analytics are great but who you're playing against also matters. If you and Auburn want to discount that, it's your prerogative. It's just that in doing so, the analytics provided are incomplete.

Ironically, this all goes back to my post a few days ago stating the LeBron gets more love for carrying average teams to the Finals (thru a mediocre conference) than he would get if he was winning rings on a so-called "superteam."

[Jockey]

The end of the game showed the biggest difference in MJ and Lebron.

Jordan absolutely takes the shot. Lebron, even though he has been hot the entire game, makes the best basketball play - a pass for a layup to Hill who had a bunny if Klay doesn't grab him going by.

[Floorslapper]

Anyone think if LeBron pulled a Kevin Durant and went out to Golden State, he'd have 3 more rings?

This team LeBron is playing with this year was re-tooled mid-season, and it's best other player is Kevin Love - not exactly Scottie Pippen caliber.  Dennis Rodman goes down as one of the absolute toughest and best rebounders in the history of the game.  Kukoc is basically Kevin Love. 

Loved Jordan, never thought I'd see the day where I felt another player was as good/better.  Hell Steve Kerr said in his presser last night:  "LeBron is doing things that have never been done in this game."

[Its DJOver]

Analytics are great but who you're playing against also matters. If you and Auburn want to discount that, it's your prerogative. It's just that in doing so, the analytics provided are incomplete.

I guess you thought that 2011-12 Thunder team with Durant, Westbrook, and Harden was just terrible, especially since Bosh (who was just a huge influence according to you) was hurt.  That 2015-16 Warriors team that won a record 73 games, they were bad too.  Lets face it, no team since 1999 is any good since they don't have to play against teams from the 90s. 

You can continue to tell yourself that basketball was better back then, but the fact is that players now are stronger, faster, better shooters, have more analytics helping them, and a larger foreign talent pool than ever before. 

[MUDPT]

The end of the game showed the biggest difference in MJ and Lebron.

Jordan absolutely takes the shot. Lebron, even though he has been hot the entire game, makes the best basketball play - a pass for a layup to Hill who had a bunny if Klay doesn't grab him going by.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2BlOTeoZVE

Speaking of what if's.  What if Hugh Hollins doesn't make the call against Scottie on Hubert Davis?  Bulls go to the Finals against there Rockets? What happens to Jordan's legacy then?

[Galway Eagle]

I guess you thought that 2011-12 Thunder team with Durant, Westbrook, and Harden was just terrible, especially since Bosh (who was just a huge influence according to you) was hurt.  That 2015-16 Warriors team that won a record 73 games, they were bad too.  Lets face it, no team since 1999 is any good since they don't have to play against teams from the 90s. 

You can continue to tell yourself that basketball was better back then, but the fact is that players now are stronger, faster, better shooters, have more analytics helping them, and a larger foreign talent pool than ever before.

That thunder team was really young I was surprised they were favored in that series.

I think they're referring to who lebron has played in the eastern playoffs... which hasn't been much in terms of all time great talent. Lowry and derozan are not all time greats. I suppose one could say Paul George but he'd be pretty darn low on that list. Those ancient Celtics maybe? That's about all that's coming to mind.

[Its DJOver]

That thunder team was really young I was surprised they were favored in that series.

I think they're referring to who lebron has played in the eastern playoffs... which hasn't been much in terms of all time great talent. Lowry and derozan are not all time greats. I suppose one could say Paul George but he'd be pretty darn low on that list. Those ancient Celtics maybe? That's about all that's coming to mind.

So beating a team with 3 future mvps on it doesn't count because it was in the finals and not earlier in the playoffs? That's absurd.  The Bucks made t-shirts when they beat that warriors team once and LeBron doesn't get credit because it was in the finals rather than earlier in the playoffs? You can only play against the team that's in front of you, don't penalize a player because he didn't play the team with the greatest regular season of all time until the finals.

[MerrittsMustache]

So beating a team with 3 future mvps on it doesn't count because it was in the finals and not earlier in the playoffs? That's absurd.  The Bucks made t-shirts when they beat that warriors team once and LeBron doesn't get credit because it was in the finals rather than earlier in the playoffs? You can only play against the team that's in front of you, don't penalize a player because he didn't play the team with the greatest regular season of all time until the finals.

We’ve been discussing LeBron vs the weak East this whole time. Welcome to the party.

[Its DJOver]

We’ve been discussing LeBron vs the weak East this whole time. Welcome to the party.

The OP is LeBron vs MJ, don't know where you've been, but there are two conferences and at the end of the season the best team from one conference plays the best team from the other, and whoever wins that is the NBA champs. You must be new to this

[jesmu84]

The OP is LeBron vs MJ, don't know where you've been, but there are two conferences and at the end of the season the best team from one conference plays the best team from the other, and whoever wins that is the NBA champs. You must be new to this

That's not how leagues with playoffs work.

[GGGG]

That's not how leagues with playoffs work.

How’s that?

[jesmu84]

How’s that?

Any league that has playoffs doesn't necessarily have the "best" teams playing for the championship. Seven game series is a lot better than a single elimination ( NBA vs NCAA, for example). But there's still no guarantee.

[WarriorDad]

They did.  With basically two different teams.  In his first run, he had Pippen, Grant, and Cartwright with the greats of Paxson and BJ Armstrong. 

In the second run, he had Pippen, Rodman, Harper, Longley, Kukoc.  This being the teams most remember. 

During those runs he beat teams like
NY - Ewing, Jackson, Greg Anthony, Doc River, Mason, Oakley
Pacers - Miller, Mullen, Rose, Jackson
Lakers - Magic, Worthy, Valdy
Piston - Thomas, Laimbeer, Dumars, Rodman
Magic - Shaq, Penny, Nick Anderson
Suns - Barkley, Kevin Johnson, Ainge
Jazz, - Malone, Stockton
Portland - Clyde Drexler, Ainge, Duckworth

That is the whose who of NBA Superstars.

All excellent points, but have a few disagreements here.  He also lost to teams like those Pistons and Knicks, too.

Worthy didn't play in several of those games (he was hurt during one, missed another completely).  Magic that was his last final, Lakers downslide

How can you get Doc Rivers name wrong?   

A number of these guys were at the end of their careers.  Danny Ainge? Averaged less than 10 points the year they went to the finals and only got above 10 points one more time in his career. 

Chris Mullin was a shadow of himself by the time he played for the Pacers.  A good role player, but not the Chris Mullin of old.

KJo's worst year from 1988-1994 was the year they went to the finals. Big drop off in avg points, avg assists

MJ and his team beat some great teams and great players.  They also beat some players that used to be great, or teams that might have been great in other eras but not this time around (Lakers, for example).

[BallBoy]

All excellent points, but have a few disagreements here.  He also lost to teams like those Pistons and Knicks, too.
First MJ did not lose to the Knicks.  As a matter of fact he even beat Ewing in College for his NCAA Championship. Second, the Pistons were a Dominant team during that stretch and Jordan overcame them

Worthy didn't play in several of those games (he was hurt during one, missed another completely).  Magic that was his last final, Lakers downslide
You make this sound like Magic was in a downward slide.  He is only three years older than Jordan and left the league, not because of his skills but he got HIV.  The Lakers as a team were still good but they weren't as good after Kareem retired (year before)

How can you get Doc Rivers name wrong?    I was saving my S's for all of your alternative facts

A number of these guys were at the end of their careers.  Danny Ainge? Averaged less than 10 points the year they went to the finals and only got above 10 points one more time in his career.
Ainge was never a scorer.  He was an orchestrator. 

Chris Mullin was a shadow of himself by the time he played for the Pacers.  A good role player, but not the Chris Mullin of old.
He was still good on a very good team

KJo's worst year from 1988-1994 was the year they went to the finals. Big drop off in avg points, avg assists
Also the first year that he played with a determined Barkley

MJ and his team beat some great teams and great players.  They also beat some players that used to be great, or teams that might have been great in other eras but not this time around (Lakers, for example).
Ewing was in his prime
Miller was in his prime
Barkley was in his prime
Isiah Thomas was still a dominant player
Alonzo Morning was in his prime
Penny was in his prime
Shaq was into prime steaks but was in the best physical condition of his career

The big difference is that in Jordan's era the East was the dominant league.  In Lebron's era the dominant league has been the West.  The one thing Lebron has over Jordan is the number of NBA finals and number in a row.  In the era of Lebron, he has basically waltzed into the finals and then lost to the dominant league. 

[GGGG]

Any league that has playoffs doesn't necessarily have the "best" teams playing for the championship. Seven game series is a lot better than a single elimination ( NBA vs NCAA, for example). But there's still no guarantee.

OK.  That is a meaningless debate, because who cares if you are the "best" and lose in the playoffs? 

That being said, DJOver's point is that a geography based, unbalanced playoff system is going to create match ups between better teams prior to the championship rounds.

[auburnmarquette]

I guess you thought that 2011-12 Thunder team with Durant, Westbrook, and Harden was just terrible, especially since Bosh (who was just a huge influence according to you) was hurt.  That 2015-16 Warriors team that won a record 73 games, they were bad too.  Lets face it, no team since 1999 is any good since they don't have to play against teams from the 90s. 

You can continue to tell yourself that basketball was better back then, but the fact is that players now are stronger, faster, better shooters, have more analytics helping them, and a larger foreign talent pool than ever before.

Agree with both you and Floor slapper. He beat a 73-9 team. It's fair to point out the east has been weak, but LeBron's supporting staff has been weaker many times. Loved sharpe nailing the all time LeBron hater skip bailess after the game to point out the hypocracy of skip refusing to blame Brady for turning it over to lose a Superbowl because he passed for 500 years - to which Shannon pointed out the obvious analogy of how he could blame LeBron for not delivering game 1 when he went beyond 51 points to put on a performance Thursday that I don't believe Jordan ever matched (and I've admitted Jordan had the best 3 seasons, but he never did as much as LeBron did in a game thursday to drag a team that bad into ot.

Championships are a factor, but for me a player who takes an otherwise terrible team to the title series is more impressive than a guy who delivers titles for 6 superior teams - and if rings are the only factor then I repeat Robert horry is the greatest player since Kareem.

But as for the argument that if you lose in the playoffs then it doesn't matter - well then Wade was not a great player, meminger was not, Lucas was not - and 350 teams should be ashamed of their college basketball team every year.

[WarriorDad]

You make this sound like Magic was in a downward slide.  He is only three years older than Jordan and left the league, not because of his skills but he got HIV.  The Lakers as a team were still good but they weren't as good after Kareem retired (year before)

Ainge was never a scorer.  He was an orchestrator. 

Ewing was in his prime
Miller was in his prime
Barkley was in his prime
Isiah Thomas was still a dominant player
Alonzo Morning was in his prime
Penny was in his prime
Shaq was into prime steaks but was in the best physical condition of his career

The big difference is that in Jordan's era the East was the dominant league.  In Lebron's era the dominant league has been the West.  The one thing Lebron has over Jordan is the number of NBA finals and number in a row.  In the era of Lebron, he has basically waltzed into the finals and then lost to the dominant league.

You are right, we lost to the Knicks as MJ had retired that year when we did, I had the wrong year in my mind.

The Lakers never made a NBA final after that year and already regressed the year they got to the finals, yes mostly due to Magic and HIV.  As published here earlier, they were identified as one of the weaker teams to make a NBA final along with the Suns and Jazz in several publications.

Incorrect on Danny Ainge, the 8 years leading up to him playing at PHX he averaged 15.4 points per game, including three seasons of 17.5 or more per year with one over 20 per game.  He was a scorer, too. He was on the decline when he hit Portland and dropped off further in Phoenix.  Those last three years there he averaged under 10pts and career lows in assists over a 4 year stretch, the distributor portion of the game you speak of.

Statistically, Charles Barkley's prime was with the 76ers, I don't know how you can argue that in any way.

The others, in most cases I agree with you but that didn't make their teams that good. '96 Heat win Mourning were the 8th seed and barely made the playoffs, as an example.

In the 8 straight finals Lebron has managed to make, only twice were they even the top seed.  Meaning they didn't have home court. That is pretty rare.  When we won our 6 titles, we were the 1 seed each year, because we were a great team.  Lebron has played on so much trash he has taken a 4 seed to the finals, and number of 2 seeds.  He finds a way. To give you perspective on that, in the last 50 years with 100 teams participating in the NBA Finals, only 4 times has a #4 seed or worse made it, and three times that was in the west.

Michael went to the Finals no worse than a 1 seed each time. In the years they were a 3 seed, he was not able to will them to the Finals like Lebron has.

[GGGG]

That Lakers team beating the defending western conference Blazers was considered a pretty significant upset at the time.  The Lakers had a decent starting line-up but zero depth - years of poor drafts (mostly due to drafting near the bottom) were catching up with them. (Tony Smith not withstanding.)

Magic had some HUGE games in that series as well.  He averaged 19.4/7.0/12.5 that season so while he was slowing down, had a number of good seasons left. 

But yeah, I would say that Lakers team is the worst that MJ faced in the Finals.  And the results bear that out.

[Silkk the Shaka]

"before leaving to Miami to team up with a player almost at Pippen’s level in Wade."

Finally got around to reading through the OP. Pudner, I love your contributions to the MU & college hoops community as a whole. The value add database is awesome.

But that sentence quoted, especially written by an MU alum no less, is figuratively a literal hate crime. Wade is significantly better than Pippen and it's not even close. He was a killer, a closer, an alpha dog. Top 25 all time, #3 SG.

In the 2011 finals, games 2-4 were each decided by 1 possession. The Heat went 1-2 in those 3 games. If they win each one, it's a clean sweep, and Wade claims his second finals MVP by a decisive margin, in a series featuring Dirk, LeBron, and Bosh.

Let's examine the stats for those 3 games.

Wade: 32 PPG, 63.3% FG, 7.3 RPG, 3.3 APG, 0.7 TOPG (4.7:1 A/TO), 139 ORtg
LeBron: 15 PPG, 42.5% FG, 6.7 RPG, 5.3 APG, 5.3 TOPG (1:1 A/TO), 93 ORtg
Bosh: 18 PPG, 37.7% FG, 5.7 RPG, 2.3 APG, 2.0 TOPG (1.1:1 A/TO), 86 ORtg

So Wade equaled their scoring output **combined**, outrebounded each of them despite giving up 5+ inches, and had a 5:1 assist to turnover ratio compared to their 1:1 ratio each (LeBron averaged as many turnovers as field goals made fercrisesake!!). And Wade's offensive efficiency rating of 139 would be the best in the history of the NBA if accomplished over the course of a full season, and it was better than any LeBron finals performance, while LeBron & Bosh’s ORtg was significantly worse than any of the "help" that gets routinely excoriated on the Cavs the past few years. Wade was WAY closer to Jordan than to Pippen.

So my question is: where are all the fawning sonnets lamenting Wade's lack of "help" in 2011? Where are all the adjustments DOWN to LeBron's legacy for turning in such a trash performance with the best "help" conceivable from Wade? Where are all the adjustments up to Wade's legacy? They don't exist.

This is what annoys me so much about LeBron Stans. The hypothetical adjustments only ever go one way (in LeBron's favor, as if no other player ever had extenuating circumstances affect his resume), and his excellent teammates are denigrated in an effort to build a David out of Goliath. I begrudgingly expect Wade to get glossed over and slighted by non-MU alums, but when I see it from people who should definitely know better, it really gets my goat!

That's the last I will comment on the matter. Look forward to seeing the finalized value add database before the season starts!

[Marcus92]

The 1986-87 Lakers deserve consideration for the greatest team of all time. Their starting lineup included:

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (6x NBA champion, 6x NBA MVP, HOF, NBA Top 50)
Magic Johnson (5x NBA champion, 3x NBA MVP, HOF, NBA Top 50)
James Worthy (3x NBA champion, HOF, NBA Top 50)
Byron Scott (3x NBA champion, 15,097 points)
A.C. Green (3x NBA champion, 12,331 points, 9,473 rebounds)

And off the bench:

Mychal Thompson (2x NBA champion, 12,810 points, 6,951 rebounds)
Michael Cooper (5x NBA champion, 8x All-NBA Defender)
Kurt Rambis (4x NBA champion)
Wes Matthews (2x NBA champion)

2 of the top 10 players in NBA history, and 3 of the top 50? Even though Kareem was near the end of his career, I'd take that team any day.

[HoopsMalone]

MJ wins the eyeball test.  I think that Michael is just flat out better because he could do more overall. Late 80s/early 90s Jordan in particular. He was most complete probably in 1991-92 when he added an elite jumpshot.

MJ could explode with his first step like Westbrook and Harden and then he could also explode at the hoop like young Blake Griffin where it looks like they accelerate in the air.

MJ also had those big shoulders and big grip on the ball. He could absorb contact and hold the ball and finish. He had an uncanny ability to jump in the air and finish.  Donovan Mitchell actually reminded me a little bit of the finishing ability.

MJ had better lateral quickness, especially early in his career.

I am NOT by any means saying that Lebron is soft or unathletic.  He's a monster.  He is so fun to watch.  But he's not Jordan out there.  And just because Lebron's bigger doesn't mean he can explode more or use his shoulders to finish like MJ did.  I don't get why people need to tear down MJ (or Kobe, Magic, Larry, or any of the elite big men) to enjoy Lebron.  People used to say that Kobe was for sure better than Jordan. 

It still comes back to the East during Lebron's career.  It will be hard to overcome that and the 2011 Mavs series if you are really trying make the case that Lebron is the best ever.  That all has to count.

[MU82]

Finally got around to reading through the OP. Pudner, I love your contributions to the MU & college hoops community as a whole. The value add database is awesome.

But that sentence quoted, especially written by an MU alum no less, is figuratively a literal hate crime. Wade is significantly better than Pippen and it's not even close. He was a killer, a closer, an alpha dog. Top 25 all time, #3 SG.

In the 2011 finals, games 2-4 were each decided by 1 possession. The Heat went 1-2 in those 3 games. If they win each one, it's a clean sweep, and Wade claims his second finals MVP by a decisive margin, in a series featuring Dirk, LeBron, and Bosh.

Let's examine the stats for those 3 games.

Wade: 32 PPG, 63.3% FG, 7.3 RPG, 3.3 APG, 0.7 TOPG (4.7:1 A/TO), 139 ORtg
LeBron: 15 PPG, 42.5% FG, 6.7 RPG, 5.3 APG, 5.3 TOPG (1:1 A/TO), 93 ORtg
Bosh: 18 PPG, 37.7% FG, 5.7 RPG, 2.3 APG, 2.0 TOPG (1.1:1 A/TO), 86 ORtg

So Wade equaled their scoring output **combined**, outrebounded each of them despite giving up 5+ inches, and had a 5:1 assist to turnover ratio compared to their 1:1 ratio each (LeBron averaged as many turnovers as field goals made fercrisesake!!). And Wade's offensive efficiency rating of 139 would be the best in the history of the NBA if accomplished over the course of a full season, and it was better than any LeBron finals performance, while LeBron & Bosh’s ORtg was significantly worse than any of the "help" that gets routinely excoriated on the Cavs the past few years. Wade was WAY closer to Jordan than to Pippen.

So my question is: where are all the fawning sonnets lamenting Wade's lack of "help" in 2011? Where are all the adjustments DOWN to LeBron's legacy for turning in such a trash performance with the best "help" conceivable from Wade? Where are all the adjustments up to Wade's legacy? They don't exist.

This is what annoys me so much about LeBron Stans. The hypothetical adjustments only ever go one way (in LeBron's favor, as if no other player ever had extenuating circumstances affect his resume), and his excellent teammates are denigrated in an effort to build a David out of Goliath. I begrudgingly expect Wade to get glossed over and slighted by non-MU alums, but when I see it from people who should definitely know better, it really gets my goat!

That's the last I will comment on the matter. Look forward to seeing the finalized value add database before the season starts!

Not sure if I meet the description of "LeBron Stans," but I do really admire his game. And I do agree with you about Wade in this instance you cite.

Wade vs. Pippen? I don't need advanced stats to know it isn't even close. I saw both play hundreds and hundreds of games with my own eyes. Wade carried a team with an older Shaq and a bunch of role players to an NBA title, something Scottie couldn't have done in his wildest dreams. Wade is a top-20 (maybe higher) player all-time. Scottie was a fine wing-man.

[Silkk the Shaka]

Not sure if I meet the description of "LeBron Stans," but I do really admire his game. And I do agree with you about Wade in this instance you cite.

Wade vs. Pippen? I don't need advanced stats to know it isn't even close. I saw both play hundreds and hundreds of games with my own eyes. Wade carried a team with an older Shaq and a bunch of role players to an NBA title, something Scottie couldn't have done in his wildest dreams. Wade is a top-20 (maybe higher) player all-time. Scottie was a fine wing-man.

Ha it's okay if you do meet the description. You and Auburn are both top 5 posters on here in my book. We can't all agree on everything all the time! Luckily it appears we see eye to eye on Wade