Jamil Wilson

[ChicosBailBonds]

+1

Much, much stronger draft field this year.

Overall, of course.  That doesn't mean he didn't have a spot there for him.

I think I'll bring in Draft Express experts for another interview this week to see how they would have viewed it.

[MU82]

We will agree to disagree.  IMO, he was better than 10 to 12 guys that actually were drafted this year and that was based on his junior year.  If he had a solid senior year, which he was likely to do, no doubt in my mind.

On the Jahil Carson stuff, he was a point guard and didn't get drafted largely because of his size.  Since 2000, only 1.2% of all draftees have been under 6' tall.  Carson is 5'10 without shoes.  Also not considered a strong defender translated to the NBA.  A score first PG. 

Semaj Christon was a significantly better prospect than Vander because of his proven PG skills and nearly 40% 3P shooting. He is listed as only 1 inch shorter than Vander was listed.

Christon went 55th in a draft that just about every scout and expert anywhere considered vastly superior to and deeper than the 2013 draft.

Jordan McRae, a 6-6 shooting guard from Tennessee, outperformed Vander statistically across the board, aside from being far more physically imposing. He went 58th.

Xavier Thames of San Diego State, another proven PG who shot 37.4% from 3P, averaged 17.6 ppg and stands 6-3 (like Christon, an inch shorter than Vander), went 59th.

So even if you for some reason believe Vander would have been selected ahead of one or more of those three guards, or that he would have been the 60th and final selection, there is little fact-based support for the certitude you voiced in your earlier post.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Be nice to hear from guys that do this for a living this week then, eh?

[Lennys Tap]

After seeing who got drafted, I'm sorry but no one can tell me Vander would not have been drafted in this year's draft if he had the same year as he did his junior year.  More than likely, he would have had a better year his senior year.

Too bad, but he does have the shoes and 200+ teammates.  Smart kid, maybe the Buzzard wore on him as well.

You're full of it. This was a much better and much deeper draft than last year. Just a way for you to take a cheap shot at the kid and Buzz. Typical.

[Nukem2]

You're full of it. This was a much better and much deeper draft than last year. Just a way for you to take a cheap shot at the kid and Buzz. Typical.

Nah, Chicos is right here.  Look at the second round.  Vander is/was better than quite a few picks.

[Lennys Tap]

Nah, Chicos is right here.  Look at the second round.  Vander is/was better than quite a few picks.

Not than Christon, Thames and McCrae, three guards who went at the end of the draft.

[MU82]

Be nice to hear from guys that do this for a living this week then, eh?

The only guys who draft for a living are GMs.

They spoke loudly about Vander last year.

They spoke loudly again when they repeatedly rejected opportunities to sign him from the D-League throughout the season.

And every GM I saw interviewed in the last month called this draft far superior to last year's draft.

Look, I don't mean to make this a bash-Vander thing. But there is little reason to believe he would have been drafted this year, either. And there is zero reason to believe it would have been the slam dunk you suggested.

As a poster on another thread just said in the last hour or so, you're not really very good at admitting you're wrong. And that's fine. It's America; everybody has the right to be wrong.

I know I'm wrong quite often -- just not this time!

[Texas Western]

Semaj Christon was a significantly better prospect than Vander because of his proven PG skills and nearly 40% 3P shooting. He is listed as only 1 inch shorter than Vander was listed.

Christon went 55th in a draft that just about every scout and expert anywhere considered vastly superior to and deeper than the 2013 draft.

Jordan McRae, a 6-6 shooting guard from Tennessee, outperformed Vander statistically across the board, aside from being far more physically imposing. He went 58th.

Xavier Thames of San Diego State, another proven PG who shot 37.4% from 3P, averaged 17.6 ppg and stands 6-3 (like Christon, an inch shorter than Vander), went 59th.

So even if you for some reason believe Vander would have been selected ahead of one or more of those three guards, or that he would have been the 60th and final selection, there is little fact-based support for the certitude you voiced in your earlier post.

I think those are three good comparisons to Vander. My sense is if Vander would have played his Senior year with MU he would have been right there with those three. Lamar Patterson from Pittsburgh (a 6 -5 guard /forward) had a nice up tick his Senior year and was drafted 48th. However, Vander could have been left out like Keith Appling was as well.  I think this years draft would have been a close call. At the end of the day his heart was not in playing his Senior year at MU. The path he took enabled him to get a lot of valuable life experience, a cup of coffee in the league and he is now well positioned for this year. Hope he realizes his dream.

[Lennys Tap]

The only guys who draft for a living are GMs.

They spoke loudly about Vander last year.

They spoke loudly again when they repeatedly rejected opportunities to sign him from the D-League throughout the season.

And every GM I saw interviewed in the last month called this draft far superior to last year's draft.

Look, I don't mean to make this a bash-Vander thing. But there is little reason to believe he would have been drafted this year, either. And there is zero reason to believe it would have been the slam dunk you suggested.

As a poster on another thread just said in the last hour or so, you're not really very good at admitting you're wrong. And that's fine. It's America; everybody has the right to be wrong.

I know I'm wrong quite often -- just not this time!

+1000

[Nukem2]

Not than Christon, Thames and McCrae, three guards who went at the end of the draft.

Vander is better than Thames or Christon

[GGGG]

Vander is better than Thames or Christon

At what position?

*If* Vander had come back and played a significant amount of time at PG, *and* performed well, then yes...he would be better than both.  But Thames and Christon have proven point guard qualities.  Vander did not. 

[MU82]

At what position?

*If* Vander had come back and played a significant amount of time at PG, *and* performed well, then yes...he would be better than both.  But Thames and Christon have proven point guard qualities.  Vander did not. 

Exactly.

This is a fan forum and it's all about expressing opinions.

I try very hard (sometimes fail I'm sure, but I try) not to express an opinion and then call it fact.

The facts in Vander's case: A year ago, he was not deemed good enough for the NBA by the only people that mattered. Then, in the 10 months that followed, he repeatedly was deemed not good enough by every GM in the league. The one GM who did give him a brief chance let him go 10 days later.

"I believe Vander would have improved as a senior and been drafted in 2014" is a welcome opinion, even if I and others disagree with it. It's a far cry from "Vander is better than Thames and Christon" (opinion disguised as fact) or "No one can tell me Vander would not have been drafted in this year's draft if he had the same year as he did his junior year" (opinion disguised as fact) or "Vander is/was better than quite a few picks" (opinion disguised as fact).

Lots of Marquette fans thought Vander was better than guys who were drafted last year, too. But those were only opinions from folks with obvious biases. The fact was that 30 NBA general managers disagreed, and that fact trumped any Scoopers' opinions. If some NBA draft "expert" subsequently opines that Vander would have been drafted ahead of Christon and Thames this year, that opinion is worth no more than mine or Chicos or any other Scoopers. It's still an opinion, not a fact.

I look at Vander and I don't see an NBA player. I didn't see it last year and I have no reason to see it now. That's my opinion; I don't pretend it's a fact. It would appear the facts do support my opinion quite well, however.

Which facts support the opinion that Vander would have been drafted had he returned to Marquette for his senior season?

[Nukem2]

At what position?

*If* Vander had come back and played a significant amount of time at PG, *and* performed well, then yes...he would be better than both.  But Thames and Christon have proven point guard qualities.  Vander did not. 

Dee Davis was X's PG.  Vander and Chrston are very similar players, though Van is a superior defender.  Both are more athletic than Thames, who is more of a combo guard.