Northwestern football players to vote on union Friday

[LegalEagle15]

It doesn't.  The ruling only applies to scholarship football players at Northwestern.  Which is odd because some of them won't even be there by the time a final ruling is made. Walk-ons for the football team can't even vote. Besides the NLRB already ruled on graduate assistants I believe and said they aren't employees. I think that was part of Northwesterns case during the original ruling. I'll double check tomorrow.

[keefe]

How are grad students on scholarship different than scholarship athletes? Both generate both direct and indirect revenue streams for the enterprise but have similar fixed compensation. Isn't the fundamental argument advanced by the athletes that they should share in more of the upside? If so then research workers could make the same claim.

Grad researchers sign away IP rights in exchange for tuition and use of university infrastructure in which to conduct research. Any innovation with commercial value belongs to the enterprise. And while most grad students work under a professorial grant they do make discoveries that alter or materially change the scope, direction, or emphasis of research. As I said, I'm not a lawyer but if athletes can unionize and seek a greater return then why not scholars? 

[real chili 83]

Or vice versa.

This inconsistency will expose this case for what it is.

[MUSF]

How are grad students on scholarship different than scholarship athletes? Both generate both direct and indirect revenue streams for the enterprise but have similar fixed compensation. Isn't the fundamental argument advanced by the athletes that they should share in more of the upside? If so then research workers could make the same claim. 

According to the NLRB, the difference is that sports are completely separate from education programs and activities. That is why I asked the question about Title IX. If it's not an education program or activity it shouldn't apply.

[ChicosBailBonds]

According to the NLRB, the difference is that sports are completely separate from education programs and activities. That is why I asked the question about Title IX. If it's not an education program or activity it shouldn't apply.

That's not how the law had been enforced, however.  Sports provided an academic institution are part of the educational structure and cannot be separated.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Just curious, did you discuss the issue after the NLRB decision? I wonder if that would impact his views at all?

The recent NLRB decision a few days ago allowing the appeal?  No.  I did talk to them after the original ruling.  Also spoke to a friend at the NCAA who primarily works on championships for the non revenue sports.  He lives this stuff day to day trying to help the 430K athletes that benefit from the NCAA tournament contract and aren't going to the NBA or NFL after their experience is done.  As he said, this could be catastrophic for Olympic and non-revenue sports.

[MUSF]

That's not how the law had been enforced, however.  Sports provided an academic institution are part of the educational structure and cannot be separated.

According to Title IX that's what sports are; part of education. The NLRB says otherwise. It appears that there are conflicting precedents.

[ChicosBailBonds]

According to Title IX that's what sports are; part of education. The NLRB says otherwise. It appears that there are conflicting precedents.

I guess I don't see where the NLRB said this, but that doesn't mean they didn't.  They ruled they are employees, but still part of the educational system as far as I've been able to determine.

Let's say the NLRB is right and they are employees and let's say they can be separated from TitleIX argument somehow.  TitleIX sports is entirely dependent on the revenues of NCAA basketball contract, so if those revenues are taken away as a result of this policy I would love to see the fireworks explode on the left on this one.  Unions preventing women from opportunities, that alone might be worth watching the left eat their own....it's also why it won't happen.

[Tugg Speedman]

According to Title IX that's what sports are; part of education. The NLRB says otherwise. It appears that there are conflicting precedents.

The NLRB ruled they are employees.  Right now they are non-unionized employees.  Whether they become unionized employees is irrelevant.  The doomsday scenario Chicos paints has now occurred.  

The only thing that can stop it is the larger NLRB or the courts reversing it.  

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

According to Title IX that's what sports are; part of education. The NLRB says otherwise. It appears that there are conflicting precedents.

But it doesn't render them non-students. They are reclassified to student employees which has different ramifications than normal employees. I believe this will prevent any major challenge.

My understanding on this is limited. I'm not a lawyer. I have only taken a few classes on higher education law.

[MUSF]

I guess I don't see where the NLRB said this, but that doesn't mean they didn't.  They ruled they are employees, but still part of the educational system as far as I've been able to determine.

Nope, the ruling hinges on the fact that Football was deemed separate from NU educational programs. Read this, http://college-football.si.com/2014/04/24/northwestern-union-vote-legal-clarification/ OR read the excerpt below.


Clearing up legal misconceptions before the Northwestern football players’ union vote
Legal Matters, NCAA, Northwestern Wildcats
By Chris Johnson

Northwestern contended in its appeal of the ruling, formally called a request for review, that Ohr disregarded and misapplied board precedent. In 2004, the board ruled that teaching assistants at Brown University were primarily students and could not collectively bargain with their university.

Northwestern football players are different, Ohr argued, because unlike teaching assistants, their service to the university is completely separate from academics. He relied on testimony given by former Northwestern quarterback Kain Colter, who is leading the players in their bid to unionize. Colter suggested that football is inimical to academic success.

William Gould, the NLRB chairman from 1994-98 and a professor of labor and discrimination law at Stanford, believes the Brown decision may eventually be overturned. He also said it does not apply to the Northwestern football union case. “I think the regional director was correct that the Brown ruling, which I think itself is flawed, was based upon the idea that the individuals, the teaching assistants — their work was bound up with the academic mission of the university and was easily distinguishable from this case here,” Gould said. “The work is not tied up with the educational mission of the university.”

[MUSF]

But it doesn't render them non-students. They are reclassified to student employees which has different ramifications than normal employees. I believe this will prevent any major challenge.

There might not be a challenge, but this won't be the reason. You are just wrong on this.

Title IX doesn't protect students from discrimination in anything and everything they pursue at a university. Title IX protects students from discrimination in education programs and activities. According to Title IX, athletics fits the description of education program or activity. According to the NLRB decision it does not.

Again, student employees at a student union or residence hall aren't affected by Title IX because their jobs aren't tied to education programs.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Again, student employees at a student union or residence hall aren't affected by Title IX because their jobs aren't tied to education programs.

I'm pretty sure it does. Just it in a different ways. It doesn't call for gender balance, but it does protect against gender discrimination. Title IX protects student employees from being fired because of their gender for example.

[MUSF]

I'm pretty sure it does. Just it in a different ways. It doesn't call for gender balance, but it does protect against gender discrimination. Title IX protects student employees from being fired because of their gender for example.

There isn't an employer in America that can fire an employee because of their gender. That's got nothing to do with being a student. It also has nothing to do with the rules mandating equality in athletic programs.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

How are grad students on scholarship different than scholarship athletes? Both generate both direct and indirect revenue streams for the enterprise but have similar fixed compensation. Isn't the fundamental argument advanced by the athletes that they should share in more of the upside? If so then research workers could make the same claim.

Grad researchers sign away IP rights in exchange for tuition and use of university infrastructure in which to conduct research. Any innovation with commercial value belongs to the enterprise. And while most grad students work under a professorial grant they do make discoveries that alter or materially change the scope, direction, or emphasis of research. As I said, I'm not a lawyer but if athletes can unionize and seek a greater return then why not scholars? 

Keefe,
Is this what you were talking about?

http://www.nhregister.com/general-news/20140430/yale-graduate-students-petition-to-form-union
Yale graduate students petition to form union

By Jim Shelton, New Haven Register
Posted: 04/30/14, 7:18 PM EDT

NEW HAVEN >> Riding the momentum of similar movements at the University of Connecticut and New York University, graduate students at Yale University Wednesday presented officials with a 1,000-signature petition asking for a vote to unionize.

Several hundred members of the Graduate Employees and Students Organization, along with supporters from Unite Here Locals 34 and 35, marched in the rain from the Hall of Graduate Studies on York Street to the office of Yale President Peter Salovey on Wall Street. They gave one copy of their petition to Graduate School Dean Thomas D. Pollard and left another copy with Salovey’s secretary.

“If ever there was a day to show this is not a fair-weather movement, this is it,” shouted GESO Chair Aaron Greenberg, on the steps of Woodbridge Hall. Rallying students wore rain gear and chanted, “Our work makes Yale work.”

GESO has existed for decades, supporting union efforts at Yale by Locals 34 and 35 and pushing for the rights of graduate students to bargain collectively with the university. Yale has never recognized the group.

Yet GESO has been buoyed by two recent events. In April, graduate students at UConn voted to form a union after the university agreed to a process by which graduate students could vote on unionization. The same thing happened in 2013 at NYU.

“It’s exciting to have graduate students stand up and say they deserve a seat at the table,” said Ted Fertic, a graduate student in Yale’s history department.

Yale spokesman Tom Conroy said Wednesday the university and graduate school “have worked and will continue to work productively with faculty and students, including the Graduate Student Assembly, on the issues identified by the petition. We are committed to the best possible academic outcomes for our students.”

Conroy did not say whether Salovey had seen the petition. Pressure from GESO on unionization may prove to be Salovey’s first labor relations test since taking over as Yale president last year.

For GESO members at the rally, unionization is a matter of fair treatment for an increasing workload during tense economic times. They spoke of pay equity, health benefits, child care and negotiated grievance procedures, among other items.

“We teach, we grade, we hold office hours, we oversee experiments. We do work, and our work matters,” said Greenberg, a graduate student in political science. “If the university trusts us to teach, they should trust us to negotiate over the conditions of our work.”

According to Greenberg, an increasing amount of the teaching and academic work at U.S. colleges and universities is being done by graduate students who are not on a tenure track and have no job security.

Kim, a fourth-year graduate student in the English department, said she teaches two classes at Yale. She wrote the syllabus, teaches each class session and grades every paper.

“My work here takes many forms,” Kim said.

GESO gathered signatures for the petition over the past four weeks. The document asked that Yale work with GESO to create a fair process for graduate students to vote on union representation.

The petition also asked Yale to maintain competitive wages and benefits, address unfair workload situations, negotiate with graduate students as Yale adds two residential colleges and boost hiring of women and people of color.

“We have the same issues,” Tyisha Walker, secretary-treasurer of Local 35, said at the rally. “You’re not trying to get rich. You’re trying to take care of your families and yourselves.”

Also attending the rally was Local 34 Vice President Maureen Jones. “You say ‘yes,’ they say ‘no.’ You know what happens? They come around,” Jones said. “They really ought to understand that all work is work.”

Call Jim Shelton at 203-789-5664. Have questions, feedback or ideas about our news coverage? Connect directly with the editors of the New Haven Register at AskTheRegister.com.

[keefe]

Keefe,
Is this what you were talking about?

http://www.nhregister.com/general-news/20140430/yale-graduate-students-petition-to-form-union
Yale graduate students petition to form union

By Jim Shelton, New Haven Register
Posted: 04/30/14, 7:18 PM EDT

NEW HAVEN >> Riding the momentum of similar movements at the University of Connecticut and New York University, graduate students at Yale University Wednesday presented officials with a 1,000-signature petition asking for a vote to unionize.

Several hundred members of the Graduate Employees and Students Organization, along with supporters from Unite Here Locals 34 and 35, marched in the rain from the Hall of Graduate Studies on York Street to the office of Yale President Peter Salovey on Wall Street. They gave one copy of their petition to Graduate School Dean Thomas D. Pollard and left another copy with Salovey’s secretary.

“If ever there was a day to show this is not a fair-weather movement, this is it,” shouted GESO Chair Aaron Greenberg, on the steps of Woodbridge Hall. Rallying students wore rain gear and chanted, “Our work makes Yale work.”

GESO has existed for decades, supporting union efforts at Yale by Locals 34 and 35 and pushing for the rights of graduate students to bargain collectively with the university. Yale has never recognized the group.

Yet GESO has been buoyed by two recent events. In April, graduate students at UConn voted to form a union after the university agreed to a process by which graduate students could vote on unionization. The same thing happened in 2013 at NYU.

“It’s exciting to have graduate students stand up and say they deserve a seat at the table,” said Ted Fertic, a graduate student in Yale’s history department.

Yale spokesman Tom Conroy said Wednesday the university and graduate school “have worked and will continue to work productively with faculty and students, including the Graduate Student Assembly, on the issues identified by the petition. We are committed to the best possible academic outcomes for our students.”

Conroy did not say whether Salovey had seen the petition. Pressure from GESO on unionization may prove to be Salovey’s first labor relations test since taking over as Yale president last year.

For GESO members at the rally, unionization is a matter of fair treatment for an increasing workload during tense economic times. They spoke of pay equity, health benefits, child care and negotiated grievance procedures, among other items.

“We teach, we grade, we hold office hours, we oversee experiments. We do work, and our work matters,” said Greenberg, a graduate student in political science. “If the university trusts us to teach, they should trust us to negotiate over the conditions of our work.”

According to Greenberg, an increasing amount of the teaching and academic work at U.S. colleges and universities is being done by graduate students who are not on a tenure track and have no job security.

Kim, a fourth-year graduate student in the English department, said she teaches two classes at Yale. She wrote the syllabus, teaches each class session and grades every paper.

“My work here takes many forms,” Kim said.

GESO gathered signatures for the petition over the past four weeks. The document asked that Yale work with GESO to create a fair process for graduate students to vote on union representation.

The petition also asked Yale to maintain competitive wages and benefits, address unfair workload situations, negotiate with graduate students as Yale adds two residential colleges and boost hiring of women and people of color.

“We have the same issues,” Tyisha Walker, secretary-treasurer of Local 35, said at the rally. “You’re not trying to get rich. You’re trying to take care of your families and yourselves.”

Also attending the rally was Local 34 Vice President Maureen Jones. “You say ‘yes,’ they say ‘no.’ You know what happens? They come around,” Jones said. “They really ought to understand that all work is work.”

Call Jim Shelton at 203-789-5664. Have questions, feedback or ideas about our news coverage? Connect directly with the editors of the New Haven Register at AskTheRegister.com.

Exactly, Nutmeg. I am on the campus of a major research university every week and I work closely with grad students. There are very mixed feelings about unionizing here but there is unanimity around compensation. I will say that the U Dub might be different in that it rewards faculty and grad students with equity in commercialization of research; this policy is definitely not universal within academia.

I liken research-based comp programs to equity and profit sharing schemes offered by corporations. U Dub never had a gun to its head but recognized that giving people a piece of the upside might be an inducement to innovation in the laboratory. Regardless of work setting or locale, people will always perform according to how they are rewarded. I am a big fan of defining the levers that will make a difference for the organization and its shareholders and putting into place the mechanisms that will deliver the desired outcomes. The most successful enterprises do this as a matter of policy.

[MUSF]

In the SI piece I linked in an earlier post they discuss the grad student issue and why the NLRB viewed them differently than Northwestern football players. The difference came down to each programs primary function. The NLRB decided that football was completely separate from university education programs, and grad research programs were not. One of lawyers or law professors quoted in the article believes that the decision on grad students will be reversed at some point and they would then be allowed to proceed with unionization.

[MUSF]

So where's the outrage over graduate researchers attempting to unionize?

Isn't the opportunity the University gives them to get an education and gain valuable experience/exposure in their field enough?

What will this do to University graduate programs across the country?

[ChicosBailBonds]

So where's the outrage over graduate researchers attempting to unionize?

Isn't the opportunity the University gives them to get an education and gain valuable experience/exposure in their field enough?

What will this do to University graduate programs across the country?

I don't think there is nearly the outrage for many reasons, one of them in your very first sentence in this post.  You've almost answered it yourself.  The distinction between graduate researchers and undergraduate student athletes couldn't be more stark.