Larry Williams landing place?

[GGGG]

So if your not using what you majored in why does it matter? If you had been a business major who was still forced to take all the general education requirements wouldn't you have still learned those skills that you are using now?

I also don't know what year you graduated. Times are different now.

No times are not different now.  People had these same conversations about liberal arts degrees when I graduated nearly 25 years ago. 

And I didn't want to major in business.  Majoring in history didn't hamper me and my career.  Why should MU simply eliminate those degrees?  You act as if MU is churning out history majors that can't put a career together.  But I bet if you went back and surveyed the history majors from 10, 20, 40 years ago, a bunch of them have ended up just fine and used their degree every day.

[Gato78]

The key to university study is critical thinking. Otherwise, a university is nothing more than a technical school. The future of education is in great flux. The University of Phoenix model and on line learning threatens the vitality of the university system as well as as the cost of going to a major university. At Marquette, the essence of the university was what used to be Phil 50. It is called something else now but it was the single most critical class because it encompassed critical thinking in the Judeo/Christian ethic. It was and is the heart of a Marquette education. It is that line of thinking that separates Marquette from other schools. A liberal arts degree is still exceptionally important lest we reduce our society to groupings of technocrats.

[Texas Western]

Easy on the hyperbole. Pilarz was not the right man for the Marquette job but he held down the fort fine for two years. And many of the students loved that he taught a class and lived in on campus housing. If you really think his teaching poetry took up more than 1% of his time than you are mistaken.

You are right about Marquette being at a critical juncture. I'm excited by the Lovell hire. Moving to a man from the private sector is the best course of action. A massive change is coming to higher education. Many private liberal arts institutions will not survive this wave. They must adapt or fail. Over the next few years Marquette must grow their enrollment. They need to expand but also shrink. A lot of the excess will need to be removed. Unnecessary services, positions, and departments must be shrunk. Increased enrollment and decreased bureaucracy will mean lower tuition. This, combined with Marquette's prestige, will allow Marquette to survive. In fact, not just survive but thrive. As the Alverno's, Carroll's, and Cardinal Stritch's of the world begin to fail, Marquette will be able absorb their resources.

That was a long rant to say basically that we should expect Marquette to look less and less like a private liberal arts school and more and more like state school. The key will be to make sure we stay true to our mission and values while we undergo this transformation.

I agree with your general concept. I think if you look a bit further much of this transformation has already happened.  The majority of the majors offered in the school are in various Healthcare specialties, Engineering, Business, Communications and so forth. Yes they have all the classes that a liberal arts school would have and that is a necessary component of growing the entire mind.  We have a decent niche as a Nationally recognized university with a Jesuit tradition. The strategic plan the school put out last year to upgrade our status is achievable. The key element is to build the endowment to north of a billion. That allows us to acquire better faculty and have more dollars to compete for higher achieving  students.  Our athletic department is an essential tool in that whole mission. The Fox contract is very key to our schools long term visibility. Also I think Lacrosse was a very smart move as it puts us in a better neighborhood of schools . Also there is large population of  former lacrosse players all through out the East Coast financial establishment. That opens up a lot of doors to our graduates.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

No times are not different now.  People had these same conversations about liberal arts degrees when I graduated nearly 25 years ago. 

And I didn't want to major in business.  Majoring in history didn't hamper me and my career.  Why should MU simply eliminate those degrees?  You act as if MU is churning out history majors that can't put a career together.  But I bet if you went back and surveyed the history majors from 10, 20, 40 years ago, a bunch of them have ended up just fine and used their degree every day.

Trust me, times are different now. The amount of student debt and the amount of students defaulting on loans was no where near the level it is at now. Student loan debt in America now outweighs credit card debt as the number one source of debt. It has reached over 1.2 trillion dollars. Not only that, but 21.6% of student loan borrowers are defaulting on loans. When reform comes, and it is coming very soon (next 6 years), students won't be able to afford Marquette's high tuition. I'd argue that we need to find a way to lower our tuition. Otherwise we risk becoming even more elitist than we already are, which takes us even farther away from our true mission of urban education.

We can argue about the value of a history degree all day. But that's not my main point. My point is we need to lower tuition and do it soon. What is your idea for making that happen? Or do you think it is not necessary to lower tuition?

[GGGG]

Trust me, times are different now. The amount of student debt and the amount of students defaulting on loans was no where near the level it is at now. Student loan debt in America now outweighs credit card debt as the number one source of debt. It has reached over 1.2 trillion dollars. Not only that, but 21.6% of student loan borrowers are defaulting on loans. When reform comes, and it is coming very soon (next 6 years), students won't be able to afford Marquette's high tuition. I'd argue that we need to find a way to lower our tuition. Otherwise we risk becoming even more elitist than we already are, which takes us even farther away from our true mission of urban education.

We can argue about the value of a history degree all day. But that's not my main point. My point is we need to lower tuition and do it soon. What is your idea for making that happen? Or do you think it is not necessary to lower tuition?

Oh I agree that tuition needs to be lowered at every institution.  But your solution isn't the way to make it work.  First off, liberal arts majors are much cheaper than business or engineering.  Simply put those professors cost less.  And as I have said, those degrees do pay off.  The majority of students that struggle or default with loan debt are those that start school, take out loans, but don't finish school.  Those who earn a degree eventually have the income to make that investment worthwhile.

So how do you lower tuition?  Well first I think we need to do much better as a society about understanding who are really four year students, and who would be better off starting at a two year school...even if for one year.  Having marginal college students attend a junior college or tech school right off the bat is cheaper, credits almost always transfer, and they are able to see if they can handle the work.

Second something needs to be done about the arms race for students.  Costs have gone up because higher education is always about one-upping its competition.  We need bigger dorms because students don't share bedrooms at home, etc.  It would be interesting to see if a four year public school would ever set itself up as a drastic low cost alternative.  For instance, what if a school like UW-Stevens Point dropped athletics, didn't upgrade some of its dorms or student life functions, etc.  And in the process was able to shave $2,000 or so off a year in tuition and student fees.  Would that type of "value" model work?  Perhaps state governments, instead of perpetuating the arms race through new building projects, can provide a financial incentives to schools that offer such a model?

And finally something does need to be done about student loans, but I am not sure what.  You don't want to completely cut off access because people do need a chance to access the market no matter their economic status.  However you don't want to lend to those who won't be able to pay back.  Maybe to students with a certain ACT/SAT score can only get financial aid to two year schools until they prove their ability to success academically?

[mu-rara]

The bolded piece is absolutely true. That's why Marquette should keep it's status as a liberal arts univeristy. They will still have and require classes on history, theology, arts, etc. They simply won't allow students to major it in anymore. This will allow the university to downsize those departments immensely.

It is irresponsible to allow students to take massive amounts of loans for majors that have little chance of producing the income to pay those loans back. It is costly to the university, the government, and the student.  We need to find a way to lower tuition in order to stay relevant.

This is a different time we live in. Having a college degree is expected now. What you major in matters. Having a degree in English no longer puts you ahead of others. Everyone has a bachelor's. Of the friends I went to college with, more are currently unemployed or working in retail level jobs than working in a job in their field.

I love the liberal arts. I actually started as a history major myself. Loved it but left when I realized that no one had any use for a history major unless I wanted to be in the classroom. I will fight to keep Marquette a liberal arts institution til the very end.  But we NEED to lower tuition. I don't see any other way to do it.

TAMU, plenty of good jobs for AS undergrads.  Many companies (Northwestern Mutual is one that comes to mind) hire smart people and train them in the insurance industry.  Granted, you may begin your career in a call center, but the sky is the limit from there.    Keefe is correct.  MU needs to stay true to its values.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I'm a history major...who paid back his loans...who makes a real good living.

The idea that someone has "little chance" to pay-back their student loans from a liberal arts degree isn't as universal a statement as you portray.  I don't use the actual history I learned in the classroom everyday, but I certainly use the skills that I used while earning my degree every day.

BTW, ask people who run businesses if they think we should dump liberal arts degrees.  My guess is that you would be surprised by their response.

Agree

History and Political Science major.  Many of the people running our revenue sourced products have a liberal arts degree, though certainly many of us also have either MBAs, or Business minors, etc, but the number of English, Poli Sci, History, Sociology, mathematics degrees is rather striking.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I did mean lay person, my mistake.

There is a reason I left Marquette and schools like it. I jumped to Texas A&M because future economics will not allow for private liberal arts schools to survive. Student debt has reached catastrophic levels. That number will have to be negotiated eventually. The federal government will be forced to give out less and less and raise the requirements for qualifying for loans. When the money flow is slowed, students will no longer be able to afford expensive private schools. Universities like Alverno, Cardinal Stritch, and Carroll will suffer and I believe eventually shut down.

Marquette's prestige will help insulate it from a lot of this. People are willing to pay for a Marquette degree. But it will still take its toll. The reality is, it is not responsible for the government or Marquette to allow a student to take out loans to study history at Marquette. A history major will never be able to pay back the loans it will take them in order to attend Marquette. It puts the student in financial distress and the government loses money. They should attend UWM or Parkside if they want to study history.

This doesn't just affect the liberal arts. Why should an engineering major pay Marquette for a degree when they can get a more prestige degree from Texas A&M for about $30,000 less? (This isn't the best comparison because they don't compete for the same students but I knew the tuitions off the top of my head. You could substitute almost any major state school for TAMU).

I think we need to cut a lot of our academic programs. Still offer the liberal arts education but don't offer majors in the liberal arts. Cut down on some of the services as well. You cut those and the money saved can be used to expand enrollment at a lower tuition rate.

I never said we should change our mission. We should always remain a liberal arts institution grounded in Jesuit beliefs. I'm just suggesting a change of structure. I'd argue that my vision actually embraces the mission more than the current structure. Our original purpose was urban education. We have currently priced ourselves out of being able to properly do that.

I agree with some of this, but disagree with a bunch, too.  The history degree example I know is wrong, as I'm living it and others continue to.  You're not pigeonholed with some of those degrees.

I am more worried about someone spending all that money on a degree from a private university that is essentially going into a trade \ career pathed approach.  Honestly, if my son were to go to Marquette and major in education, it would be a tough ROI for me to get my head around.  You can get to a job as a teacher through much less expensive university programs and since teacher pay is what it is, the ROI (IMO) doesn't make sense.  Not sure nursing programs or others also shouldn't be looked at closely.

For majors that can lead to a number of different avenues, my fears are not as strong, though certainly I have concerns about future students having the ability to pay for school or the willingness to take on those debts.   

[Marquette Gyros]

Agree

History and Political Science major.  Many of the people running our revenue sourced products have a liberal arts degree, though certainly many of us also have either MBAs, or Business minors, etc, but the number of English, Poli Sci, History, Sociology, mathematics degrees is rather striking.

Agree as well. Political Science and Econ via A&S. Doin' alright in the F500.

TAMU Eagle -- play out your earlier scenario a bit further. If MU abolishes A&S majors, does that make a $160K investment in a business degree with a $50K starting salary any more palatable? Same question with a 20% bump in starting salary for engineers.  $100K in debt ain't pretty, no matter what your major was.

Bending the cost curve of higher education has to happen, because all but the top 5% are being priced out of the market. The logical conclusion is probably the shuttering of Carroll, Cardinal, Alverno, etc.

How the hell did we wind up talking about this anyway? Superbar this half of the conversation?




 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Lynn Holzman got the gig for WCC