Is Danny Manning a serious candidate?

[Lennys Tap]

If I recall the guy from Arkansas Little Rock was to be the coach and he bailed at the end, or we bailed....something.  Very tough to get a coach that late.

Mike Newell from Arkansas Little Rock turned down the job.

[Herman Cain]

got it

i don't remember if there were any other potentially better candidates than dukiet, but my God there had to be...but he could still play the peee ano

Jud Heathcoate, the Old Michigan State coach, called Hank and encouraged him to hire Dukiet. I don't know how Jud knew Dukiet, but that is partially how Dukiet got into the picture.

[Skip Intro]

Marquette is a top 25 modern day program. In that time (50+ years) we have never hired a major major coach. The 2 who came closest (Deane and Dukiet) were a disappointment and a disaster respectively.

I was recently reading an old article from when Dukiet was fired.  Supposedly on our short list to replace him was Bernie Fine.  Dodged a bullet there.

[Lennys Tap]

Jud Heathcoate, the Old Michigan State coach, called Hank and encouraged him to hire Dukiet. I don't know how Jud knew Dukiet, but that is partially how Dukiet got into the picture.

Wonder what Al, Hank or MU ever did to Jud to cause that level of hatred.

[WarriorDad]

Wonder what Al, Hank or MU ever did to Jud to cause that level of hatred.

Excellent!

[WarriorDad]

Mike Newell from Arkansas Little Rock turned down the job.

Still coaching in NAIA. 

Old Tribune article with MU offering Newell.  https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1986-07-04-8602180124-story.html

Newell rejects the offer   https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1986-07-05-8602180153-story.html

Lists the other candidates.  Dick Versace, Moe Iba, Mel Hankinson, Dukiet and Cobb. 

[Cheeks]

Marquette is a top 25 modern day program. In that time (50+ years) we have never hired a major major coach. The 2 who came closest (Deane and Dukiet) were a disappointment and a disaster respectively.

Neither of those come close in my opinion, and yes I am aware of the history.  It is also why we go through the spin cycle every so often. 

[MU82]

Yes, we can get Midmajor guys to come here, we have tried to get Bennett, Shaka, etc, all have said no.

Shaka was not a major-college coach. He was a mid-major coach who apparently had a lot to learn about building a major program.

Don't know what our level of engagement was on Bennett or how far it ever got.

Of those talked about the last go-round ...

Cuonzo would have used us. Howland, no thanks. The rest of the names bandied about were either from mid-majors or were assistants. Once Mrs. Shaka spurned us, I was perfectly happy with the guy we hired the day we hired him, and I'm thrilled with him now.

[GooooMarquette]

When I say an experienced head coach, I mean a major major not a mid major.  Dukiet was gifted because Rick decoded in June or July to leave the program, and that was a killer.

Yes, we can get Midmajor guys to come here, we have tried to get Bennett, Shaka, etc, all have said no.  We’ve rolled the dice pretty well, but it also means going young and those guys start to feel like they need to go elsewhere after a bit of time.  Would be nice not to have a high major steal our guy each time and we actually return the favor.

If we could get an experienced high-major coach, sure. But your examples show that we haven’t been successful when we’ve tried.

Given that our realistic options seem to be experienced high major assistants - or - coaches with low-major HC experience, I’ll go with the former.

[MU82]

How often does a high major steal another high major's coach?

I can think of a few examples: Roy from Kansas to UNC (special situation there); Self from Illinois to Kansas; Crean from Marquette to Indiana. All 3 of those involved a coach jumping to a blueblood. I'm sure there are other examples, but I don't think it's so common that one should realistically expect Marquette to poach a proven, successful, high-major coach.

[muwarrior69]

How often does a high major steal another high major's coach?

I can think of a few examples: Roy from Kansas to UNC (special situation there); Self from Illinois to Kansas; Crean from Marquette to Indiana. All 3 of those involved a coach jumping to a blueblood. I'm sure there are other examples, but I don't think it's so common that one should realistically expect Marquette to poach a proven, successful, high-major coach.

I think we got the next best thing.

[Lennys Tap]

How often does a high major steal another high major's coach?

I can think of a few examples: Roy from Kansas to UNC (special situation there); Self from Illinois to Kansas; Crean from Marquette to Indiana. All 3 of those involved a coach jumping to a blueblood. I'm sure there are other examples, but I don't think it's so common that one should realistically expect Marquette to poach a proven, successful, high-major coach.

Only way a school like MU gets a successful, active high major coach is if the coach is disgruntled at his present school. (See Buzz from MU to Virginia Tech in reverse, for example) We're not a blue blood.

[MU82]

Only way a school like MU gets a successful, active high major coach is if the coach is disgruntled at his present school. (See Buzz from MU to Virginia Tech in reverse, for example) We're not a blue blood.

Agreed, Lenny.

There seems to be some dispute from those who claim to know whether VT actually "stole" Buzz from us. Many believe our administration held the door open for him and told him not to let it hit him on the way out. I am not privy to this kind of info, so all's I know about this deal is what I read here on Scoop.

My point (and it appears you agree) is that while some say it's high time for us to poach, say, Bill Self from Illinois, it's simply not something that happens very often ... and when it does happen it's usually a blueblood doing it or there is some extenuating circumstance (i.e. Roy to UNC) or both.

Again, I usually would rather hire a well-respected, experienced assistant from a program that has been successfully run by a great coach than a retread (such as Howland) or an unknown quantity (such as most mid-major head coaches).

[Cheeks]

How often does a high major steal another high major's coach?

I can think of a few examples: Roy from Kansas to UNC (special situation there); Self from Illinois to Kansas; Crean from Marquette to Indiana. All 3 of those involved a coach jumping to a blueblood. I'm sure there are other examples, but I don't think it's so common that one should realistically expect Marquette to poach a proven, successful, high-major coach.

Fair enough, though here are ones that come to mind for me off top of my head....some of these are dated, most are current


Bennett from Wazzu to UVa
Self from Illinois to KU
Belein from WVU to Michigan
Miller from Xavier to Zona
Williams from KU to UNC
Crean from MU to IU
Howland from Pitt to UCLA
Dixon from Pitt to TCU
Turgeon from Texas A&M to Maryland
Williams from MU to Va Tech
Altman from Creighton to Oregon
Martin from Cal to Missouri
Weber from Illinois to KState
Kruger from Florida to Illinois....later UNLV to Oklahoma
Mack from Xavier to Louisville
Caliprari from Memphis to Kentucky
Holtmann from Butler to Ohio State
Barnes from Clemson to Texas and then to Tennessee
Kennedy from Cincinnati to Ole Miss
Olson from Iowa to Arizona
Pastner from Memphis to Georgia Tech
Martin from K State to South Carolina
Anderson from Mizzou to Arkansas
KO from MU to Tennessee

[mu.n8ball]

Fair enough, though here are ones that come to mind for me off top of my head....some of these are dated, most are current


Bennett from Wazzu school to UVa
Self from Illinois to KU
Belein from WVU to Michigan
Miller from Xavier to Zona
Williams from KU to UNC
Crean from MU to IU
Holland from Pitt to UCLA
Dixon from Pitt to TCU
Turgeon from Texas A&M to Maryland
Williams from MU to Va Tech
Altman from Creighton to Oregon
Martin from Cal to Missouri
Weber from Illinois to KState
Kruger from Florida to Illinois....later UNLV to Oklahoma
Mack from Xavier to Louisville
Caliprari from Memphis to Kentucky
Holtmann from Butler to Ohio State
Barnes from Clemson to Texas and then to Tennessee
Kennedy from Cincinnati to Ole Miss
Olson from Iowa to Arizona
Pastner from Memphis to Georgia Tech
Martin from K State to South Carolina
Anderson from Mizzou to Arkansas

Mack and Holtmann were painful to me because they were departures of good coaches from the "New" Big East. Some might take it as a sign that the conference isn't desirable to coach in. Or maybe they had it with having to face Wright, Cooley, Wojo, et al twice a year. 

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Mack and Holtmann were painful to me because they were departures of good coaches from the "New" Big East. Some might take it as a sign that the conference isn't desirable to coach in. Or maybe they had it with having to face Wright, Cooley, Wojo, et al twice a year. 

Or maybe they simply went to better programs and/or they were ready to move on.

[🏀]

Fair enough, though here are ones that come to mind for me off top of my head....some of these are dated, most are current


Bennett from Wazzu school to UVa
Self from Illinois to KU
Belein from WVU to Michigan
Miller from Xavier to Zona
Williams from KU to UNC
Crean from MU to IU
Holland from Pitt to UCLA
Dixon from Pitt to TCU
Turgeon from Texas A&M to Maryland
Williams from MU to Va Tech
Altman from Creighton to Oregon
Martin from Cal to Missouri
Weber from Illinois to KState
Kruger from Florida to Illinois....later UNLV to Oklahoma
Mack from Xavier to Louisville
Caliprari from Memphis to Kentucky
Holtmann from Butler to Ohio State
Barnes from Clemson to Texas and then to Tennessee
Kennedy from Cincinnati to Ole Miss
Olson from Iowa to Arizona
Pastner from Memphis to Georgia Tech
Martin from K State to South Carolina
Anderson from Mizzou to Arkansas

Good list. Only ones that should be removed are Sean Miller, Dana Altman, Josh Pastner, Calipari and Bruce Weber.

[Cheeks]

Good list. Only ones that should be removed are Sean Miller, Dana Altman, Josh Pastner, Calipari and Bruce Weber.

Why? 

[Its DJOver]

Why?

Can't speak for PTM but X and CU weren't high major when their coaches left, Memphis has never been high major, and Weber wasn't exactly stolen from Illinois.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Barnes wasn't really stolen from Texas either.
Kennedy was interim at Cincinnati and wasn't going to get the head gig there.

But that's a good list.

[MU82]

Why?

Xavier was in the A-10, a mid-major conference, when Miller went to Arizona, a borderline blueblood. There isn't a college basketball fan outside of Omaha who wouldn't consider Oregon to be a far better post than Creighton, which was in the MVC at the time. Pastner was under intense fire at Memphis and was desperate to get out. (It was even more dire than Buzz at MU; the administration was hardly clamoring to keep Pastner there.) The NCAA was knocking on Calipari's door at Memphis; he left behind a dumpster fire. Weber was fired by Illinois.

Others on the list who might not belong there: Buzz; Kennedy (was only interim coach at Cinci); Holtmann (is anybody actually calling Butler to OSU a lateral move?); Anderson (similar situation to Roy, as Anderson was a 17-year Arkansas assistant who wanted to get back there); Barnes (Texas to Tennessee version, anyway, as he was fired by Texas).

But sure, it's an interesting list. I think it confirms what I and a couple others have said: a major-to-major move is quite uncommon.

[Cheeks]

Can't speak for PTM but X and CU weren't high major when their coaches left, Memphis has never been high major, and Weber wasn't exactly stolen from Illinois.

I figured, but I don’t buy it.  It’s like saying Wichita State isn’t a major but a mid major. Those programs were consistently ranked higher than 40% of the P5 schools....people get caught up in the conferences they played in, not the program.  Gonzaga plays in a mid major conference, but is no way a mid major. 

[Lennys Tap]

Barnes didn't leave Texas for Tennessee. He was fired.

[Cheeks]

Xavier was in the A-10, a mid-major conference, when Miller went to Arizona, a borderline blueblood. There isn't a college basketball fan outside of Omaha who wouldn't consider Oregon to be a far better post than Creighton, which was in the MVC at the time. Pastner was under intense fire at Memphis and was desperate to get out. (It was even more dire than Buzz at MU; the administration was hardly clamoring to keep Pastner there.) The NCAA was knocking on Calipari's door at Memphis; he left behind a dumpster fire. Weber was fired by Illinois.

Others on the list who might not belong there: Buzz; Kennedy (was only interim coach at Cinci); Holtmann (is anybody actually calling Butler to OSU a lateral move?); Anderson (similar situation to Roy, as Anderson was a 17-year Arkansas assistant who wanted to get back there); Barnes (Texas to Tennessee version, anyway, as he was fired by Texas).

But sure, it's an interesting list. I think it confirms what I and a couple others have said: a major-to-major move is quite uncommon.

You miss the point, where did I ever say they had to be lateral moves...ever?  I didn’t.  I also never said anything about blueblood....you did.  I didn’t.  Of course many are upgrades, some are lateral, but I never made that criteria...you did.  A lot goes into defining what is a better job...money, conference, dedication to basketball, fan base, geography, etc.

As stated earlier, Gonzaga plays in a midmajor conference so based on your definition here, they must be midnajor.... uhm, no.

Finally, yes some guys were fired, but the hiring schools (which was my point all along) hired an established major coach anyway, INSTEAD of the unproven assistant....again, my premise from the get go.  Experienced major coach vs unproven assistant.

[Cheeks]

Barnes didn't leave Texas for Tennessee. He was fired.

And Tennessee hired the major coach in Barnes rather than an assistant....which was my entire point...they went for major coach with experience, rather than inexperienced coach hoping he would do well,