Sochi Olympics Thread

[brandx]

Why don't you spend $25,000 to go to Rio in 2016 instead?  That is what it would have cost each resident of Chicago had we won the bid.

A totally made up number.

Neither you nor I have any idea what the number is. The difference is that I don't reach down between my legs and grab something from there.

[akmarq]

That not caring attitude is what has us $17 trillion in debt...and policies that kick the can down the road time and time again.

All too often those that don't care how much it costs are also not the ones that seem to pay the smallest portion as well.  It's easy to ask for goodies when the most of the payment of the goodies is covered by someone else....be it the rich, out of town visitors, people buying cigarettes, etc.  Someone is paying

I'm so glad someone was here to relate this to the national debt. Heaven forbid we discuss a specific proposal without tying it into a gridlocked issue that people get emotional about.

Thinking about the Chicago Olympic proposal and, admittedly, not knowing about the funding plan, I'd be interested to know how cost burden was distributed across the income distribution. My biggest issue with these sorts of projects is that they're funded in most cases with a regressive sales tax. So the people who benefit least from the event end up paying a higher percentage of their income towards the costs.

The Beijing Olympics weren't a great deal if you were the average Chinese worker. It seems pretty callous to ask the economically disadvantaged to pony up for events that they can't afford to attend.

[akmarq]

That not caring attitude is what has us $17 trillion in debt...and policies that kick the can down the road time and time again.

All too often those that don't care how much it costs are also not the ones that seem to pay the smallest portion as well.  It's easy to ask for goodies when the most of the payment of the goodies is covered by someone else....be it the rich, out of town visitors, people buying cigarettes, etc.  Someone is paying

Also - anytime someone quotes the debt as a gross number rather than %age of GDP it kills a puppy.

That's not a left vs. right issue; that's a 'has a clue about public finance' vs 'let's be shocking to promote my agenda' issue.

[Tugg Speedman]

A totally made up number.

Neither you nor I have any idea what the number is. The difference is that I don't reach down between my legs and grab something from there.

You're right, this is a made up number.  I was part of Chicago2016 committee (along with hundreds of others).  No funding numbers were ever brought up up this was the number widely assumed. 

The estimate for the cost was $20 to $25 billion (which we knows means at least $40 billion).  The $25,000 was a total of taxes (sales, property, income, fees and others) over the subsequent 15 years.

And for the record, I was one of many on these committees that thought it would not work and was glad it failed.

[brandx]

You're right, this is a made up number.  I was part of Chicago2016 committee (along with hundreds of others).  No funding numbers were ever brought up up this was the number widely assumed. 

The estimate for the cost was $20 to $25 billion (which we knows means at least $40 billion).  The $25,000 was a total of taxes (sales, property, income, fees and others) over the subsequent 15 years.

And for the record, I was one of many on these committees that thought it would not work and was glad it failed.

My point was that you were looking at one thing and saying it was everything.

I'm sure your estimate took labor costs into account. I wonder if it took into account the amount of those labor costs that would be funneled right back into the Chicago economy. Along with many other costs that are recouped along the way. Or was it just the costs and expenses divided by number of people?

What was the process to get to $25,000? What expenses and what offsets?

[Coleman]

Also - anytime someone quotes the debt as a gross number rather than %age of GDP it kills a puppy.

That's not a left vs. right issue; that's a 'has a clue about public finance' vs 'let's be shocking to promote my agenda' issue.

+1

[Tugg Speedman]

My point was that you were looking at one thing and saying it was everything.

I'm sure your estimate took labor costs into account. I wonder if it took into account the amount of those labor costs that would be funneled right back into the Chicago economy. Along with many other costs that are recouped along the way. Or was it just the costs and expenses divided by number of people?

What was the process to get to $25,000? What expenses and what offsets?

Never got that far as we lost the bid.  That was a working estimate.  Had Chicago won the bid, they would have had seven years to sort it out.

Trust me up until literally the days before the bid was due, they were making up numbers and changing stuff radically.

It was about winning the bid, not making the numbers work.

[brandx]

Never got that far as we lost the bid.  That was a working estimate.  Had Chicago won the bid, they would have had seven years to sort it out.

Trust me up until literally the days before the bid was due, they were making up numbers and changing stuff radically.

It was about winning the bid, not making the numbers work.

I think that is pretty much always the way it works.

[Benny B]

If Chicago had been awarded the Olympic Games, I'm pretty certain the corruption and dismal conditions in Sochi wouldn't even be newsworthy right now.

[Jay Bee]

Chicks who "hate sports" love watching the winter Olympics.

No thanks.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

If Chicago had been awarded the Olympic Games, I'm pretty certain the corruption and dismal conditions in Sochi wouldn't even be newsworthy right now.

Doubtful, Chicago woulda had some nice facilities.

[Benny B]

Doubtful, Chicago woulda had some nice facilities.

Yet they would have had so much graft that the entire world have nodded in agreement when Putin condemns the corruption of the Chicago games.

[Tugg Speedman]

Yet they would have had so much graft that the entire world have nodded in agreement when Putin condemns the corruption of the Chicago games.

+1

The games are not nothing but a giant public works project (but in useless projects after the games are done).  No different from the O'Hare expansion project.  Bribery, corruption, ghost payrolling are all part of the normal affairs of such a project.  The Olympics are no different.

Again, see my post above about Michael Scott

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=41878.msg565607#msg565607

Helped "investors" buy property to make a killing when Chicago won the games and drove up the value of these properties.  Instead Chicago lost the bid and his investors were hosed.  A month later he's found floating in the Chicago river with a bullet in his head ... a "Chicago Suicide."

That's what happened when they lost.  Imagine the grab-fest if they won!

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

You all seriously only see the worst in the world...No positivity, kinda like the general theme of this board.

[JWags85]

Chicago is a very corrupt city as far as American cities go.  But if you think it has anything on other countries, especially the modern Wild West like Russia, you are absolutely insane.  In Russia the media wouldn't have even reported Michael Scott cause the powers that be wouldn't have allowed it.  If it was a "Chicago Suicide" in Russia, he would have just vanished.  As far as facilities, you could have an Olympics worth of reporters and media descend on Chicago tomorrow and not be as ill equipped as those places popping up online.  Putin makes Daley look like Abraham Lincoln.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Also - anytime someone quotes the debt as a gross number rather than %age of GDP it kills a puppy.

That's not a left vs. right issue; that's a 'has a clue about public finance' vs 'let's be shocking to promote my agenda' issue.

OK, I'm happy to do that.

Our debt to GDP in 2012 was 101.60.  Staggering.

In 2006, it was 63.3.

The only time it was higher than it is now, was 1946 just after World War II.

Not sure what "agenda" I'm pushing, because those are just the facts.  Straight from the United States Treasury Department  http://www.treasurydirect.gov/NP/debt/current


The bigger point is that whether it is a SPECIFIC project(s) or a multitude of them, we keep spending (not caring what it costs) and kicking the can down the road.  And that % to GDP climbs and climbs and climbs, until we are upside down like we are today.  Pay as you go?  LOL.  Just push it off to the next generation or two....after all...."who cares what it costs"

[ChicosBailBonds]

You all seriously only see the worst in the world...No positivity, kinda like the general theme of this board.

Plenty of positivity can be seen, but there is a difference between seeing the worst in the world and just seeing reality and the ramifications of those decisions.  As I've often said, in my next life I hope to come back as a person who just wants to be that guy that advocates for everything and even better, doesn't have to pay a red cent for it.  That would be a wonderful experience....it's easy to be on that side of the fence.

[77ncaachamps]

Similarly, as a Bay Area resident, we lack the space and infrastructure to host the Olympics.

Sure, we have the vistas, destinations, etc.

But the pure gridlock, trickle down stress, constant Olympic banter, not to mention always being a possible high-value terrorist target...

I don't think it's worth the headache.

[brandx]

OK, I'm happy to do that.

Our debt to GDP in 2012 was 101.60.  Staggering.

In 2006, it was 63.3.

Not sure what "agenda" I'm pushing,

Starting in '46, the percentage went down every year under Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Nixon, and Carter. It went up every year under Reagan, Bush, down again under Clinton and up under Bush.

So we know your agenda - what we don't get is your point.

It's gotta be either that you want Hillary in '16 or everything is BO's fault

[real chili 83]

Those commies can belt out a tune.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Starting in '46, the percentage went down every year under Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Nixon, and Carter. It went up every year under Reagan, Bush, down again under Clinton and up under Bush.

So we know your agenda - what we don't get is your point.

It's gotta be either that you want Hillary in '16 or everything is BO's fault

SMH

It's one thing to have it go up, it's another thing to have it go off the rails.  The point is pretty clear.  We spend money we don't have especially with attitudes like, "who cares what it costs".  That was the point.

Last I checked, it was Congress who controlled the purse strings...so though you might think you know my agenda, the example you gave to somehow explain it clearly shows you don't.  Congress spends the money, not the POTUS.  Believe me, I blame the whole lot of them.

[Tugg Speedman]

[Lennys Tap]

Plenty of positivity can be seen, but there is a difference between seeing the worst in the world and just seeing reality and the ramifications of those decisions.  As I've often said, in my next life I hope to come back as a person who just wants to be that guy that advocates for everything and even better, doesn't have to pay a red cent for it.  That would be a wonderful experience....it's easy to be on that side of the fence.

You'll get your chance to be the "say yes" guy in this life, Chico. It's called being a grandparent. Kill two birds with one stone - indulge those little ones at every turn and spend as much of your kids inheritance on them as you can.

All kidding aside, of course you're both right. When esard says he wants the Olympics in Chicago because it would be cool, he right - would be cool. But as you say, sometimes the adult has to tell the kid that not all cool things are affordable. "You can't always get what you want..."

[Tugg Speedman]

Chicago is a very corrupt city as far as American cities go.  But if you think it has anything on other countries, especially the modern Wild West like Russia, you are absolutely insane.  In Russia the media wouldn't have even reported Michael Scott cause the powers that be wouldn't have allowed it.  If it was a "Chicago Suicide" in Russia, he would have just vanished.  As far as facilities, you could have an Olympics worth of reporters and media descend on Chicago tomorrow and not be as ill equipped as those places popping up online.  Putin makes Daley look like Abraham Lincoln.

So that's out silver lining ... Hey were not Russia!

I feel better now

[ChicosBailBonds]

You'll get your chance to be the "say yes" guy in this life, Chico. It's called being a grandparent. Kill two birds with one stone - indulge those little ones at every turn and spend as much of your kids inheritance on them as you can.

All kidding aside, of course you're both right. When esard says he wants the Olympics in Chicago because it would be cool, he right - would be cool. But as you say, sometimes the adult has to tell the kid that not all cool things are affordable. "You can't always get what you want..."

If I live long enough, I hope to enjoy that experience.  Unfortunately our kids grandparents are all gone except my mom, and she's a bit limited on the spoiling for other reasons.  I gladly look forward to it someday.

I have no doubt that all the shiny buildings and venues would be very cool for Chicago.  Pols know that it's a way to get stuff built with a "legitimate" reason behind it.  You can write the speeches today...."this infrastructure will not only serve the world's athletes but will be here for generations of Chicagoans to enjoy long after the games have made this city great again."  Holy #$$#.  It's funny how generations turn to a handful of years, but the debt service certainly is generational.

But as you probably know better than most, the piper always gets paid.  Always.  There is always a ramification and a consequence.  If people can accept the consequences, then fine. That's really all I ever ask in those situations.  Define the ramifications, truly share them for all, test their resolve and make a decision.  It is when those ramifications are hidden (often), or sugarcoated as to understate the impact that leads to poor decisions and all kinds of fun issues to clean up down the road.