Butler Officiating

[ecompt]

Yep, we had to face Julius Erving and Pete Maravich in the span of a few days.

[We R Final Four]

I can pretty much guarantee that I have watched more games than you and your Dad, going back to watching MU in the NIT in 1967.

Well then you should certainly recognize an obvious foul and realize its potential impact on the outcome--regardless if they deserved it.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Pete Gillen praised Jim Burr at least three times as being one of the best referees in the country.  Obviously Pete is either insane or on something. 

I think Gillen is referencing the fact Burr has done 16 Final Fours and 7 national championship games.  That doesn't happen by accident.  He is clearly on the down slope of his career, but his career has been distinguished.

[ecompt]

Well then you should certainly recognize an obvious foul and realize its potential impact on the outcome--regardless if they deserved it.

I probably said it wrong. Was it a foul? Yes. Was it a call that you are going to get on the road? You should, but it's not a given. Would Mayo have hit all three free throws to give them the lead, and would MU been able to hold on in the final 12 seconds? We'll never know. I was concentrating on the fact that the reason (I think) they lost the game was scoring 19 points in the second half, then allowing 20 points in five minutes of overtime.

[4everwarriors]

I think Gillen is referencing the fact Burr has done 16 Final Fours and 7 national championship games.  That doesn't happen by accident.  He is clearly on the down slope of his career, but his career has been distinguished.

Actually legendary, aina?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Why give officials a pass? They screwed up and it possibly cost us. The Todd three was a foul--they blew it. It possibly meant the game. Why is that ok? We stunk but had chance to win and an officials incorrect call made a big difference. Not only was it a big miss but it should have been Butler's ball and it was reviewable--under two minutes. They blew that call at every level. It possibly cost us the game. Why in the world do people say officials don't cost teams the game? Of course they do. Hell, if we had a twenty point lead it doesn't matter but it was a tight game. I have always thought that people who let the refs off the hook were never athletes. You lose a tight game due to a bad call, damn right it was an officials call. You play your ass off and a tough call takes you out. Hell yeah, officials can cause a loss.

Only if you believe one call is any different than any other.  There are calls missed throughout a game.  Yup, they missed the call on Mayo there.  What about a call they missed 5 minutes earlier that could have resulted in 2 free throws for Butler?  The problem with this thinking that official can cause a loss is that fans are usually focusing on one call and ignoring the other 25 to 40 calls made throughout the game or the ones not made and not giving them the same weighting.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Actually legendary, aina?

I reserve legendary status for folks like Stu Merrill, John Holmes, and Charlie Sheen

[Gato78]

Early in the game, you can fight back. If you are down by two or four, you know what has to be done and you fight like hell to do it if there is time left in the game. Late in the game, both teams become more intense and they are playing at a higher level. Late in the game, you lose time to fight back from the error. Late game officiating errors cost teams games. The 25 or 40 calls are an ebb and flow and lead to different decisions and playing intensity during the game. Can't do it late in games.

Only if you believe one call is any different than any other.  There are calls missed throughout a game.  Yup, they missed the call on Mayo there.  What about a call they missed 5 minutes earlier that could have resulted in 2 free throws for Butler?  The problem with this thinking that official can cause a loss is that fans are usually focusing on one call and ignoring the other 25 to 40 calls made throughout the game or the ones not made and not giving them the same weighting.

[Texas Western]

Why give officials a pass? They screwed up and it possibly cost us. The Todd three was a foul--they blew it. It possibly meant the game. Why is that ok? We stunk but had chance to win and an officials incorrect call made a big difference. Not only was it a big miss but it should have been Butler's ball and it was reviewable--under two minutes. They blew that call at every level. It possibly cost us the game. Why in the world do people say officials don't cost teams the game? Of course they do. Hell, if we had a twenty point lead it doesn't matter but it was a tight game. I have always thought that people who let the refs off the hook were never athletes. You lose a tight game due to a bad call, damn right it was an officials call. You play your ass off and a tough call takes you out. Hell yeah, officials can cause a loss.

people  who are/were athletes that compete at a high level understand that blaming the officials is a losing proposition .   Also  frankly, I didn't think there was any contact on that last call at all, body or ball, so it actually went our way when we got he ball back

[Gato78]

That is where the officials botched it. The only two outcomes were a foul or ball out to Butler because it was off Mayo. They should have reviewed it because it was inside 2 minutes. It was  to our benefit but the replay clearly showed he was hit on the arm. Blaming officials is a losing proposition publicly but it occurs. Buzz took a shot in the post game. If your theory is correct, the quality of officiating is irrelevant because it always evens out. That is a complete pile.

people  who are/were athletes that compete at a high level understand that blaming the officials is a losing proposition .   Also  frankly, I didn't think there was any contact on that last call at all, body or ball, so it actually went our way when we got he ball back

[82fanatic]

I think Gillen is referencing the fact Burr has done 16 Final Fours and 7 national championship games.  That doesn't happen by accident.  He is clearly on the down slope of his career, but his career has been distinguished.

Chicos.  You stuck up for this jerk in another thread.  Is he your relative?   I don't care what he used to be, I care how he performs his job now!   Favre, Unites, Elway , were all good or great in their time, maybe the Packers should can Rodgers for them.  They are all available to play!!!  

Good performance in the past does not excuse piss poor, crappy, (or worse) performance today.  

Careful,  it's a long way down from that saddle!!

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Chicos.  You stuck up for this jerk in another thread.  Is he your relative?   I don't care what he used to be, I care how he performs his job now!   Favre, Unites, Elway , were all good or great in their time, maybe the Packers should can Rodgers for them.  They are all available to play!!!  

Good performance in the past does not excuse piss poor, crappy, (or worse) performance today.  

Careful,  it's a long way down from that saddle!!

I am no Jim Burr fan (you'll notice I started a thread after the Xavier game about being stuck with him), but all the announcer said was that he as one of the all time greats. Which is exactly what CBB confirmed. I hate Jim Burr's officiating as much as the next Marquette fan but he has a long distinguished career as a referee.

And no, the Packers should not call up Unitas, Favre, or Elway. But all three of them are still all time greats and distinguished.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Early in the game, you can fight back. If you are down by two or four, you know what has to be done and you fight like hell to do it if there is time left in the game. Late in the game, both teams become more intense and they are playing at a higher level. Late in the game, you lose time to fight back from the error. Late game officiating errors cost teams games. The 25 or 40 calls are an ebb and flow and lead to different decisions and playing intensity during the game. Can't do it late in games.

You are right you cannot "recover" late in the game, but a bad call is a bad call.  If Butler is fouled going up for a shot and it isn't called, they are still denied a potential 2 points whether they have time to recover or not, those 2 potential points on that play disappear.

[keefe]

Your are right you can "recover" late in the game, but a bad call is a bad call.  If Butler is fouled going up for a shot and it isn't called, they are still denied a potential 2 points whether they have time to recover or not, those 2 potential points on that play disappear.

Miami of freakin' Ohio. Woulda, coulda, shoulda.

MU - Butler 2014 is small potatoes.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chicos.  You stuck up for this jerk in another thread.  Is he your relative?   I don't care what he used to be, I care how he performs his job now!   Favre, Unites, Elway , were all good or great in their time, maybe the Packers should can Rodgers for them.  They are all available to play!!!  

Good performance in the past does not excuse piss poor, crappy, (or worse) performance today.  

Careful,  it's a long way down from that saddle!!

I'm not into conspiracy theories or people blaming officials.  Do I think Burr is an outstanding official anymore?  No.  Do I think he was horrible today?  No.  Do I think he was any better or worse than the other officials today? No.

My comment earlier was simply that he has had a distinguished career which is why people have made the glowing comments about him in the past.  Tim Higgins actually called him the greatest college ref ever.  Everyone has an opinion. 

[We R Final Four]

Your are right you can "recover" late in the game, but a bad call is a bad call.  If Butler is fouled going up for a shot and it isn't called, they are still denied a potential 2 points whether they have time to recover or not, those 2 potential points on that play disappear.

I've heard this argument before and it doesn't hold up.
A holding call by the offensive lineman on 4th and goal with 30 seconds to go in the game does not negate the offensive holding with 14 min to go in the 1st quarter. They cannot just be washed as even Steven.
Teams in all sports play terribly all the time and get out with a win. Regardless how poorly they played throughout the majority of game, they were in a position to win in the end.
When the ref blows the call in the end, you can say "we didn't deserve to get that call".
C'mon man.

[pbiflyer]

I hope Pete Gillen's voicebox is chewed off by an angry raccoon. 

Too good for him!

[ChicosBailBonds]

I've heard this argument before and it doesn't hold up.
A holding call by the offensive lineman on 4th and goal with 30 seconds to go in the game does not negate the offensive holding with 14 min to go in the 1st quarter. They cannot just be washed as even Steven.
Teams in all sports play terribly all the time and get out with a win. Regardless how poorly they played throughout the majority of game, they were in a position to win in the end.
When the ref blows the call in the end, you can say "we didn't deserve to get that call".
C'mon man.

A game is the result of each and every play during the game.  A TD scored in the first quarter is worth the same amount of points as a TD scored with 4 seconds left in the game.  Each play has consequences and often determines what the next play or action may or may not be taken.  To ignore those plays in the early game, or bad calls, what have you means you are ignoring the very nature of contest.

I would strongly recommend you read the book Scorecasting.  Fabulous book, massive amounts of data in it, but a great read. 

[We R Final Four]

I didnt say points.  Yes, no sheet, a TD scored at any point in the game goes up on the scoreboard, is the result of the actions and is real. 

It is the other events----such as non-calls at crucial points in the game---that carry more weight than a charging call 10 seconds into the game.  Again, they are not even Steven.

[TallTitan34]

If a bad call in the first half is equal to one at the end of the game, why are they only allowed to review the play in the final 2 minutes?

[ecompt]

Miami of freakin' Ohio. Woulda, coulda, shoulda.

MU - Butler 2014 is small potatoes.

God, keefe, you had to bring that up? The call on Whitehead was one of the worst in history.

[4everwarriors]

Call was a rip, but MU had no business lettin' MoO hang around that long.

[forgetful]

I am no Jim Burr fan (you'll notice I started a thread after the Xavier game about being stuck with him), but all the announcer said was that he as one of the all time greats. Which is exactly what CBB confirmed. I hate Jim Burr's officiating as much as the next Marquette fan but he has a long distinguished career as a referee.

And no, the Packers should not call up Unitas, Favre, or Elway. But all three of them are still all time greats and distinguished.

It goes to show you that actually doing your job well has nothing to do with your reputation in your field, nor your ability to get promotions.  Burr is horrendous.  Maybe he used to be better, I certainly have noticed him being bad for at least 10 years.  He should have been put out to pasture long, long ago.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I didnt say points.  Yes, no sheet, a TD scored at any point in the game goes up on the scoreboard, is the result of the actions and is real. 

It is the other events----such as non-calls at crucial points in the game---that carry more weight than a charging call 10 seconds into the game.  Again, they are not even Steven.

I think you would enjoy it.  Tied to data, not opinions.

http://www.amazon.com/Scorecasting-Hidden-Influences-Behind-Sports/dp/0307591808

[ChicosBailBonds]

If a bad call in the first half is equal to one at the end of the game, why are they only allowed to review the play in the final 2 minutes?

I think you know that answer.....its about pace of game, too much slowing down of the game, television window, flow, etc.  In fact, that is one of the reasons given for the review, so that games aren't slowed down.  Most importantly, they can review a reviewable play that happens ANY TIME during a game and not just the last four minutes, but in the first 36 minutes of the game it has to be done at a media timeout. Again, to keep pace of game going. In the last 4 minutes, there is no media timeout to "get it right", thus they have to stop the action right then and there to do their review.

People focus on the last two minutes, but a goaltending non call in the first half prevents 2 points just as it does in the last 2 minutes.  A player hit on the arm shooting with 6 minutes in the half not called deserves 2 free throw attempts just as someone in the last 40 seconds.  Those are points (potentially) taken off the board.  The difference is that people focus on the end and forget about everything in the beginning.  This is human nature, as the climatic end is in sight and the clock is winding down, there is no more room for error and fans weight it differently in their minds.  The reality is, there is no difference.

I would recommend everyone on this board get this book.  A healthy dose of psychiatry of fans, excellent data metrics of the impacts of calls, non-calls, and the true nature of how games are won and lost.  You will not be disappointed.