Hall of fame voting

[🏀]

Among active players, who should get in?   Pujols?  (Steroids?)   Miguel Cabrera?  (Trout is better )  Jeter?  (Longevity made his numbers great)  Ortiz?  (A DH?   the horror)   Clearly, Rivera should, but he is retired and someone will make the argument that he was a 1-inning pitcher who didn't usually come in in pressure situations.     Among current starting pitchers?    King Felix (numbers aren't that great)   Verlander?   (down year last year, injured now, who knows how it turns out)  Lee?  Halladay?   Will 200 career wins become the new 300 career wins, since starters don't start as many games, go as many innings, or last as long?

My point is that an excuse can always be found for exclusion.   It's silly.   It isn't some contest.   It is a shrine to celebrate the best the game has to offer, those who have made an impact.    The more, the merrier. 

Out of your list:

Pujols, Cabrera, Trout, Mariano, Halladay, Verlander and Felix will all make it.

[Lennys Tap]

There's actually a good argument to be made against Rivera (and all closers).  First off, the only reason Rivera is a closer is because he was sent to the bullpen after being a failed starter.  I'll bet there are actually a lot of middle of the pack starters who would be tremendous closers.  A 200 inning, 5% better than league average starter is a more valuable commodity and harder to find than an elite closer.  I can't find the actual numbers but I remember reading somewhere that the Yankees won less than 1% more often in the 18 years of Rivera as closer with a lead in the 9th inning than they did in the 18 preceding years  (like 93% vs 92.5% or something).  Because basically, saving your best pitcher to just pitch one inning in games you're going to win more than 90% of the time anyway is a pretty stupid allocation of resources.

If you're not going to vote for Edgar Martinez because he's a DH I don't see how you could vote for any closer.

All that said, I would vote for Rivera every time and I'm a Red Sox fan.

You and Tower amplify a point I was trying to make - a guy who's "debatable" to some is a shoe in to others. Saying "if there's any debate, he's out" is bad for the Hall of Fame, bad for baseball and an elitist position that if really applied would mean no Hall of Fame whatsoever.

[CTWarrior]

You and Tower amplify a point I was trying to make - a guy who's "debatable" to some is a shoe in to others. Saying "if there's any debate, he's out" is bad for the Hall of Fame, bad for baseball and an elitist position that if really applied would mean no Hall of Fame whatsoever.

Couldn't agree with you more.

[CTWarrior]

Out of your list:

Pujols, Cabrera, Trout, Mariano, Halladay, Verlander and Felix will all make it.

Absent steroids allegations, Pujols will cruise in.  Rivera will also cruise in.  Halladay only has 203 wins, and will probably make it but may have to wait a while, as voters aren't too kind anymore to starters with low win totals.  The rest of the guys on your list are good bets but have plenty of work left to do (possible exception Cabrera), so need to stay healthy.

[MerrittsMustache]

You and Tower amplify a point I was trying to make - a guy who's "debatable" to some is a shoe in to others. Saying "if there's any debate, he's out" is bad for the Hall of Fame, bad for baseball and an elitist position that if really applied would mean no Hall of Fame whatsoever.

Craig Biggio not being elected to the HOF would be bad for baseball? Really?!

We can agree to disagree on what makes a HOF player. I'll continue to believe it's the best of the best. Others can believe it's guys who were pretty good for a while  

An interesting vote will be David Ortiz. He's got the numbers and he's a jovial, media-friendly guy beloved by teammates and fans...but he's also a PED user.

[Lennys Tap]

Craig Biggio not being elected to the HOF would be bad for baseball? Really?!

No. One guy getting in every 10 years or so would.

[MerrittsMustache]

No. One guy getting in every 10 years or so would.

Why do you think that would be the case?

Since 2001, 22 players have been enshrined. With the "no doubt" system, 19 players would have gone in. (Yes, I'm putting the PEDs guys in)

2014
Maddux
Glavine
Thomas

2013
Bonds
Clemens
Sosa

2011
Alomar

2009
Henderson

2007
Ripken
Gwynn
McGwire

2005
Boggs

2004
Molitor
Eckersley

2003
Murray
Sandberg

2002
Smith

2001
Winfield
Puckett

[GGGG]

You and Tower amplify a point I was trying to make - a guy who's "debatable" to some is a shoe in to others. Saying "if there's any debate, he's out" is bad for the Hall of Fame, bad for baseball and an elitist position that if really applied would mean no Hall of Fame whatsoever.

Exactly.  I mean Robin Yount was a first ballot HOFer, but was his career that much different that Jim Rice's? 

Just because you get in the first year, doesn't mean that you are a "no doubt" candidate.  I mean Yount only received 77% of the vote.  And if you look at their stats, Rice's might be considered better.

And I'm a Brewer fan.

[CTWarrior]

Why are Winfield and Puckett no doubt but Rice doesn't belong?

Look at Tim Raines compared to Tony Gwynn.  Not much difference.  Same plate appearances Raines around 200 more runs, Gwynn around 150 more RBIs.  Very similar OBPs.  They both even had sons who had short MLB careers.  Raines much better base runner (maybe the best base runner ever).  Gwynn better, but not way, way better.  The basic difference between the two is how you value singles vs walks.  If your HOF has Gwynn but not Raines, then Gwynn has to be the bottom of the line.

There's no difference in true value between Ozzie Smith and Alan Trammell.  Ozzie the much better fielder (though Trammell was excellent) and Trammell the much better hitter (though Ozzie better than he uis usually given credit for).  

Dennis Eckersley?  1 or 2 HOF type seasons out of 12 as a starter and 5 great years as a closer and he's a slam dunk Hall of Famer?  I'm a big HOF guy and I wouldn't have voted for him.

And that's the point.  The guys who are no-doubters to you may not be no doubters to someone else and vice versa.

[keefe]

The Hall of Fame was never meant to be only for the Babe Ruths and Hank Aarons.  It is a museum, a tourist attraction.  If people don't get inducted, people aren't going to visit it.  Right now they enshrine something like 1.25% of players, which is reasonable.  I'm sure basketball inducts a higher percentage and football inducts more guys year to year, but since their rosters are larger I'm not sure of the percentages. 

The way I look at it is that if a guy is as good as the average guy at his position that is already in the HOF, then it is a no-brainer and he should go in.  Below that, and it is a discussion.

Discussion is important.  When Nolan Ryan went in, he got the second highest percentage of votes ever, and people complained about who are the knuckleheads that didn't vote for him.  The same people complained when Phil Niekro got in because he was just a compiler.  But look at their careers.  Ryan had 6 more wins, while Niekro pitched more innings, had a better winning percentage despite similar quality teams pitched for and a better career ERA adjusted for era/ball park.  It is not a no-brainer that Ryan was better than Niekro.  In fact it is very debatable.

We scored some box seats along the first base line for a day game between the Brewers and Angels. Ryan was pitching for the Halos and we got there when Ryan was warming up. The man lets out an audible grunt with every pitch and the pop in the mitt was like a fire cracker. 8 innings later he was still grunting and the pop was just as pronounced as it was 2.5 hours earlier.

Numbers only tell part of the story. Nolan Ryan was an hurler who struck fear in the hearts of batters. Guys were afraid when standing in against him. And Ryan, like Bob Gibson, was a warrior. He practiced the art of chin music like a maestro.

I liked Niekro and I believe he belongs in the Hall. But to compare him as a pitcher to Nolan Ryan is naïve. Most of the pitcher-batter duel is mental. And one of the masters of that battle was Ryan. You simply cannot compare Ryan's heat with Niekro's butterfly.

[CTWarrior]

We scored some box seats along the first base line for a day game between the Brewers and Angels. Ryan was pitching for the Halos and we got there when Ryan was warming up. The man lets out an audible grunt with every pitch and the pop in the mitt was like a fire cracker. 8 innings later he was still grunting and the pop was just as pronounced as it was 2.5 hours earlier.

Numbers only tell part of the story. Nolan Ryan was an hurler who struck fear in the hearts of batters. Guys were afraid when standing in against him. And Ryan, like Bob Gibson, was a warrior. He practiced the art of chin music like a maestro.

I liked Niekro and I believe he belongs in the Hall. But to compare him as a pitcher to Nolan Ryan is naïve. Most of the pitcher-batter duel is mental. And one of the masters of that battle was Ryan. You simply cannot compare Ryan's heat with Niekro's butterfly.

How come Niekro won games at a higher percentage rate and allowed runs at a lower rate?  If fear was that big a deal those things wouldn't be true. 

[shiloh26]

Why are Winfield and Puckett no doubt but Rice doesn't belong?

Look at Tim Raines compared to Tony Gwynn.  Not much difference.  Same plate appearances Raines around 200 more runs, Gwynn around 150 more RBIs.  Very similar OBPs.  They both even had sons who had short MLB careers.  Raines much better base runner (maybe the best base runner ever).  Gwynn better, but not way, way better.  The basic difference between the two is how you value singles vs walks.  If your HOF has Gwynn but not Raines, then Gwynn has to be the bottom of the line.

There's no difference in true value between Ozzie Smith and Alan Trammell.  Ozzie the much better fielder (though Trammell was excellent) and Trammell the much better hitter (though Ozzie better than he uis usually given credit for).  

Dennis Eckersley?  1 or 2 HOF type seasons out of 12 as a starter and 5 great years as a closer and he's a slam dunk Hall of Famer?  I'm a big HOF guy and I wouldn't have voted for him.

And that's the point.  The guys who are no-doubters to you may not be no doubters to someone else and vice versa.

+1.  Take a minute to look at Puckett's and Winfield's career statistics next to Craig Biggio.   Craig Biggio certainly looks to have had at least as good a career (I would argue a better career) than Kirby Puckett or Dave Winfield.  

Not that there isn't room for that debate - but that's the point.  Even within your list, players are in totally different stratospheres.  Kirby Puckett, Ryne Sandberg, Dave Winfield... don't even come close to Cal Ripken or Ricky Henderson.  Greg Maddux had a tremendously more impressive career than Dennis Eckersley.

[keefe]

How come Niekro won games at a higher percentage rate and allowed runs at a lower rate?  If fear was that big a deal those things wouldn't be true. 

Not sure if you ever played baseball but read what MLB hitters said about standing in against either Gibson or Ryan. Fear is a considerable factor in the Pitcher-Batter construct.

Winning % is one indicator but is King Felix a lesser pitcher because he plays for a really terrible Mariners team?

http://voices.yahoo.com/top-ten-most-intimidating-pitchers-all-time-7440374.html

[CTWarrior]

Not sure if you ever played baseball but read what MLB hitters said about standing in against either Gibson or Ryan. Fear is a considerable factor in the Pitcher-Batter construct.

Winning % is one indicator but is King Felix a lesser pitcher because he plays for a really terrible Mariners team?

http://voices.yahoo.com/top-ten-most-intimidating-pitchers-all-time-7440374.html

I played baseball through high school and have coached 20 years in youth leagues (i've coached from 5 year olds through age 16) but don't think of those things as terribly helpful to me in this discussion.  I understand everything you are saying.  But the bottom line is that Nolan Ryan and Phil Niekro pitched very similar totals of innings and using ERA+ (putting ERA in context of environment) Niekro prevented runs at a slightly better rate than did Nolan Ryan.  The primary goal of pitcher is not to scare the other guys.  It is not to impress the other guys.  It is to prevent runs and Ryan did not do that any better than Niekro did.  You think the way Ryan did it (throw hard, lots of walks and strikeouts) makes him better than Niekro somehow.  I don't.  I can agree to disagree.  One of the beauties of baseball is the many ways you can accomplish the same goal.

[keefe]

I played baseball through high school and have coached 20 years in youth leagues (i've coached from 5 year olds through age 16) but don't think of those things as terribly helpful to me in this discussion.  I understand everything you are saying.  But the bottom line is that Nolan Ryan and Phil Niekro pitched very similar totals of innings and using ERA+ (putting ERA in context of environment) Niekro prevented runs at a slightly better rate than did Nolan Ryan.  The primary goal of pitcher is not to scare the other guys.  It is not to impress the other guys.  It is to prevent runs and Ryan did not do that any better than Niekro did.  You think the way Ryan did it (throw hard, lots of walks and strikeouts) makes him better than Niekro somehow.  I don't.  I can agree to disagree.  One of the beauties of baseball is the many ways you can accomplish the same goal.

As I said in my original post, Niekro belongs in the Hall. He was a damned effective pitcher. I just think Nolan Ryan was more electric. I also liked Nolan Ryan as a person. I recall being back in Plano on PepsiCo business and reading the Morning News Sports page. The writer catalogued the cars driven by the various Ranger players. The list was full of luxury and ultra high performance. And one 15 year old Ford F 350. Driven by Nolan Ryan.

[brandx]

We scored some box seats along the first base line for a day game between the Brewers and Angels. Ryan was pitching for the Halos and we got there when Ryan was warming up. The man lets out an audible grunt with every pitch and the pop in the mitt was like a fire cracker. 8 innings later he was still grunting and the pop was just as pronounced as it was 2.5 hours earlier.

Numbers only tell part of the story. Nolan Ryan was an hurler who struck fear in the hearts of batters. Guys were afraid when standing in against him. And Ryan, like Bob Gibson, was a warrior. He practiced the art of chin music like a maestro.

For hitters, McCovey and Dawson did the exact same thing. Very good hitters, but THEY scared pitchers.

[keefe]

For hitters, McCovey and Dawson did the exact same thing. Very good hitters, but THEY scared pitchers.

There was a great Nike ad for baseball bats in the later '90's. Just a shot of a pitcher toeing the rubber and a large piss stain on his pants.

I coached little league in Jakarta then and we were looking at the ad in the dugout. I asked one of the Japanese kids on the team if he understood what it meant and he replied, "That man is a coward!" I nodded approvingly.

[WI inferiority Complexes]

For hitters, McCovey and Dawson did the exact same thing. Very good hitters, but THEY scared pitchers.

Non Hall-of-Famers Jim Rice, Gorman Thomas, and George Bell can also be added to the list of very intimidating hitters.

Personally, I find the fear put into an opposing player to be too subjective to be factored into voting.  I LOVED Lee Smith growing up, but don't think the fact that he was intimidating pushes him into the Hall.  Additionally, Maddux may be the least intimidating athlete of all time.

[keefe]

Non Hall-of-Famers Jim Rice, Gorman Thomas, and George Bell can also be added to the list of very intimidating hitters.

Personally, I find the fear put into an opposing player to be too subjective to be factored into voting.  I LOVED Lee Smith growing up, but don't think the fact that he was intimidating pushes him into the Hall.  Additionally, Maddux may be the least intimidating athlete of all time.

"People pay to see me hit home runs, run into the wall, and strike out. I try to accommodate them in at least 2 of those every game."

--Gorman Thomas

That guy could hit dingers at County Stadium but not the Kingdome. Go figure.

[MU82]

Non Hall-of-Famers Jim Rice, Gorman Thomas, and George Bell can also be added to the list of very intimidating hitters.

Personally, I find the fear put into an opposing player to be too subjective to be factored into voting.  I LOVED Lee Smith growing up, but don't think the fact that he was intimidating pushes him into the Hall.  Additionally, Maddux may be the least intimidating athlete of all time.

Rice is in the Hall.

[WI inferiority Complexes]

Rice is in the Hall.

Good call.

[CTWarrior]

Non Hall-of-Famers Jim Rice, Gorman Thomas, and George Bell can also be added to the list of very intimidating hitters.

To me, two of the most menacing hitters of the last 25 years were Albert Belle and Gary Sheffield.  I would not want to be the 3rd base coach when either of those guys came up.

[shiloh26]

To me, two of the most menacing hitters of the last 25 years were Albert Belle and Gary Sheffield.  I would not want to be the 3rd base coach when either of those guys came up.

I like those two.  Although he didn't have the mean streak that those two guys had, in his prime, I think Pujols was absolutely feared by any pitcher.  You couldn't make even the tiniest mistake against him.

For recent pitchers, Randy Johnson and Pedro.  Randy Johnson just because he sort of looked crazy and threw a slider that to a righty probably looked like it was coming at your head... at 90 mph.  And he killed a bird with a baseball.  And Pedro because he threw the best changeup in baseball with 97mph heat and had an affinity for coming inside... I would have been terrified of facing Pedro. 

[77ncaachamps]

I didn't look at the whole thread, but if it IS the BASEBALL HOF and not the MLB HOF, then more Negro League players should be in, no?

Ask the director of the NLHOF in KC and I'm sure he can come up with at least 5 off the top of his head.

Speaking of relative "no doubt," ever tried looking up some of those turn of the century HOFers? Other than peer testimonies, it's hard for us to gauge their HOF worthiness based on numbers that appear to be borderline HOF worthy.

[CTWarrior]

I didn't look at the whole thread, but if it IS the BASEBALL HOF and not the MLB HOF, then more Negro League players should be in, no?

Ask the director of the NLHOF in KC and I'm sure he can come up with at least 5 off the top of his head.

Speaking of relative "no doubt," ever tried looking up some of those turn of the century HOFers? Other than peer testimonies, it's hard for us to gauge their HOF worthiness based on numbers that appear to be borderline HOF worthy.

They've had multiple committees to recognize the deserving Negro Leaguers and I think they're well and fairly represented, except I think it is a shame that Buck O'Neil wasn't inducted.

The thing you need to realize when looking at the older turn of the century guys is that there wasn't near the breadth of talent  then as there is now, so it was much easier for a great player to dominate.  For example, I'm sure a guy like Walter Johnson would still be good now, but there are many similar guys now.