Five Points for a National Championship...

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

It is simply amazing that we had the worst season in about a dozen years with a PG that has obvious flaws, not being able to shoot from the field or the line, and not being the great defender a few hyped him to be, and we still have slurpers defending the gamechanger and the phony downhome lonesome cowboy decisions for that season.

Not defending him. I didn't agree with his rotations either. I would have played Dawson at least 15 minutes a game, Burton at least 25 minutes a game, and played Mayo until he dropped.

My only issue is when posters make it seem like Buzz was trying to "lose on purpose," "send a message," or "forgot how to coach." Buzz coached the exact same way he did the previous five seasons, but it wasn't working this season. Like MU82 suggested, I would have made more drastic changes just to try something new. Not all coaches think this way. Buzz decided to double down on his style, it didn't work.

Winning fixes everything.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

A guy who can't shoot the basketball isn't going to be a 1st, 2nd or 3rd scoring option on a low major team...

Yes, they can be. It happens quite often. The difference between Big East basketball and like Southland basketball is huge. Derrick could abuse low major point guards with his strength and penetrating ability. If Derrick can score 5 ppg in BEast basketball, he could score double digits a game in a low major league, which would make him a top scoring option for a team.

And, there are MANY PGs on high major teams who are scoring options..and frequently first and 2nd scoring options - Napier and Harrison come to mind.

I'm not sure what the point of this is. I never suggested that there aren't high major point guards who are scoring options. I would love to have a Napier or a Harrison on the team. I'm hoping Carlino can be a poor man's Harrison.

And as for your example...of Tom Maayan (a freshman) (the guy who in your post you mentioned because you recalled Seton Hall having an AWFUL PG) - the guy only started 17 games, averaged 21 minutes per game - nowhere near what Derrick got.....my whole problem is you and the 5 others who are SO incredibly convinced that we didn't have a better option on the roster...you acknowledge Tom Maayan was awful...and he was...so was Derrick...it wasn't going to be this major fall off if Dawson was given 20 minutes a night consistently...and it very likely would have made the team better.

I am convinced that Dawson was not the better option. I did want his minutes to increase. I also agree that Derrick was bad for a high major PG.

My issue, as it has always been, is that you feel the necessity to use hyperbole to tear down Derrick in order to make your point. That and your seeming need to have everyone agree with you 100%. We have a lot of common ground. But because we don't see eye to eye on certain points you have labeled me and 5 posters as pro-Derrick slurpers who must be assimilated.

[MU82]

Not defending him. I didn't agree with his rotations either. I would have played Dawson at least 15 minutes a game, Burton at least 25 minutes a game, and played Mayo until he dropped.

My only issue is when posters make it seem like Buzz was trying to "lose on purpose," "send a message," or "forgot how to coach." Buzz coached the exact same way he did the previous five seasons, but it wasn't working this season. Like MU82 suggested, I would have made more drastic changes just to try something new. Not all coaches think this way. Buzz decided to double down on his style, it didn't work.

Winning fixes everything.

We are in agreement on most things, TAMU. We would have been in total agreement on Jan. 5 or Feb. 5 or March 5, but given what has taken place since the season -- Buzz either quitting or being run off (or both), I do confess that I now wonder if Buzz did have some ulterior motives that affected his coaching style.

He was willing to live with the nice ups and often dramatic downs that both Vander and Mayo went through as freshmen. So it has to make me wonder about his rotations this past season.

[NersEllenson]

Only fools base their opinions on outliers. 

Only fools can't admit they were wrong - Buzz Williams being one of them....and of course you and the handful of other guys.

Still waiting for you to find one other PG in the last 20 years who played more minutes, and shot worse percentages from the FT line and 3 point line...but carry on and continue thinking and making the argument that we didn't have a better option than the historically bad performance we got from Derrick.  Keep thinking a PG who HAS to be defended everywhere on the court is a worse option, than a guy teams sag 5-6' off of and have ZERO respect for his ability to hurt them.  I know you and others thought, don't worry...it's still early in the season..Buzz will figure it out...his teams always get better as the season wears on....but at what point do you not just say....clearly...this ain't working and we need to change??  Buzz himself said they were playing 4 on 5 on the offensive end - at what point do you not make a change, realizing your team is about 60 spots worse than your worst O-Rated team in your 6 year career at MU??

I should re-state, my frustration and annoyance is directed at Buzz Williams - even though Derrick gets the brunt of the discussion.  Buzz had other and better options not just at PG, but at shooting guard, at the 3, and at center....yet he basically refused to max their minutes/give minutes to the more talented guys...

 

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

This is wrong.

Many of the best coaches in hockey history would change goalies with their team losing, say, 3-0 after one period. Later, they'd say something like: "It wasn't Goalie X's fault. I just wanted to do something to get the team going."

In 1972, Bob Griese got hurt in the 5th game and Earl Morrall replaced him for the rest of the season. The Dolphins went undefeated and Morrall was named AFC Player of the Year. The Dolphins then won their first playoff game. In the AFC title game against Pittsburgh, the Dolphins and Steelers were tied 7-7 at halftime but Shula didn't think his team was playing very well. So he benched Morrall for Griese, who still wasn't 100% but was able to play. The Dolphins went on to win that game and the Super Bowl.

So there you had the winningest coach in football history benching the conference player of the year for a guy who wasn't even totally healthy. And the Dolphins weren't even losing at halftime! Why? "Because we needed a spark," Shula said.

And those are just a couple examples. Some of the all-time great coaches have done "change for the sake of change." It isn't even rare.

Great coaches know that if something isn't working, you try something else. Great business leaders, educators and athletes know the same thing.

You're not wrong... but think of what we are saying:

In the HISTORY of sports... thousands of games have been played in he past 40 years. You had to go back to 1972 for an example.

Now, certainly it has happened since then, but the percentage of coaching decisions that get justified by "change for change's sake" are miniscule. Tiny. Almost irrelevant.

Buzz did try Jamil at PG, which was sort of a "change for change's sake", but that failed quickly and Buzz went away from it.

Truthfully, I think we're all arguing over about 12mpg. If you played Derrick 20-25mpg, and some combo of Dawson & Mayo the other 15-20mpg, then all of these threads probably die. (at least I hope so).

12mpg. We've killed HOURS arguing about 12mpg that Buzz could have used to limit Derrick deficiencies and hopefully get some offensive production out of Dawson.

[MU82]

12mpg. We've killed HOURS arguing about 12mpg that Buzz could have used to limit Derrick deficiencies and hopefully get some offensive production out of Dawson.

Ah ... it's the offseason! Hours are there to be killed!!

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Only fools can't admit they were wrong - Buzz Williams being one of them....and of course you and the handful of other guys.

Ners, for the millionth time. You are not right. Neither is Sultan or anyone else for that matter. We are here to share our OPINIONS on Marquette basketball. No one can prove one way or another if we would have been better if Dawson had started last season.

[GooooMarquette]

Ners, in two separate posts (on page 4 for those keeping score), you show why many here find it hard to take you seriously.  First, you admit you made an assumption that turned out to be wrong:

"I was optimistic coming into the last season...and what Derrick could bring.  Not sure what was so ironic about my post/question:  COULD Derrick be an Aaron Craft type of PG?  It became evident early on in the season, the answer was NO."

...and then you make another assumption that you "simply refuse to believe" could be wrong:

"I simply refuse too believe Dawson wasn't a better option."

So you made an assumption about Derrick that you readily admit was wrong...and then you make an assumption about Dawson, and "refuse to believe" that it could be wrong too.  Wise people learn from their mistakes.

[NersEllenson]

Ners, in two separate posts (on page 4 for those keeping score), you show why many here find it hard to take you seriously.  First, you admit you made an assumption that turned out to be wrong:

"I was optimistic coming into the last season...and what Derrick could bring.  Not sure what was so ironic about my post/question:  COULD Derrick be an Aaron Craft type of PG?  It became evident early on in the season, the answer was NO."

...and then you make another assumption that you "simply refuse to believe" could be wrong:

"I simply refuse too believe Dawson wasn't a better option."

So you made an assumption about Derrick that you readily admit was wrong...and then you make an assumption about Dawson, and "refuse to believe" that it could be wrong too.  Wise people learn from their mistakes.

First...there's about 5 of you in this debate that can't take me seriously on the topic..and have battled all season long on it:  Tower, Tamu, Sultan, Ammo, You, Jesmu84....none of you could let go of the assertion that Derrick was the best option at PG last season...though Sultan waffled somewhat at least...you all thought it and team would get better as season went on..and some have even tried to argue Derrick improved over the course of the season....I mean...just ridiculous...go look at his last 5 games of the year...

As for making an "assumption" about Derrick - asking a question:  COULD Derrick be an Aaron Craft type of PG....is not making an assumption that he would be Aaron Craft good...it was a hopeful/optimistic QUESTION. 

And yes, I refuse to believe things would have GOTTEN WORSE with Dawson getting 30....as we got historically bad play at the position all season long...historically bad....hard to do worse than some of the worst play in history at PG.  I mean, come on....teams didn't even defend Derrick within 5' on perimeter....he wouldn't shoot a perimeter shot unless in desperation mode....he's made 2, 3 pt shots in his entire college basketball career through the end of his junior year...is a 45% FT shooter for his career...

Contrast that with a guy who can at least shoot the basketball from the FT line at 81% (usually indicative of a guy who can shoot the basketball from everywhere), that has tripled the 3 point makes of the junior in front of him....as a freshman in spotty minutes...who shoots them at 4 times the percentage...

Yeah...hard for me to be so convinced we didn't have a better option sitting on the bench 32+ minutes virtually every game.  Even harder to believe that the one game he got fair/normal playing time/comparable to Derrick...he certainly didn't pee down his leg and choke...in fact quite the opposite...led us to victory in Overtime on the road...in arguably our best win of an otherwise AWFUL season.

[GGGG]

First...there's about 5 of you in this debate that can't take me seriously on the topic..and have battled all season long on it:  Tower, Tamu, Sultan, Ammo, You, Jesmu84....none of you could let go of the assertion that Derrick was the best option at PG last season...

I have noticed that you bring this up a lot lately.  As if I care if my opinion is in the minority on this board.

But I just would like to make one thing clear.  I don't care how many times you say the same thing in dozens of different threads...I don't care how many minutes Derrick or Dawson plays next year....I don't care if John Dawson is an All-American by his senior year...

Nothing is going to convince me that Derrick shouldn't have been the primary point guard last year.  Nothing.  So was he a good option?  No.  Should Dawson have been given more minutes as a back up?  Yes.  But was Derrick the best option to receive starter's minutes?  Absolutely.

And with that, I am done with this debate for good.  The horse is a bloody pulp that even the glue factory wouldn't accept by this point.

[Skatastrophy]

Nothing is going to convince me that Derrick shouldn't have been the primary point guard last year.  Nothing.  So was he a good option?  No.  Should Dawson have been given more minutes as a back up?  Yes.  But was Derrick the best option to receive starter's minutes?  Absolutely.

+1

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I have noticed that you bring this up a lot lately.  As if I care if my opinion is in the minority on this board.

But I just would like to make one thing clear.  I don't care how many times you say the same thing in dozens of different threads...I don't care how many minutes Derrick or Dawson plays next year....I don't care if John Dawson is an All-American by his senior year...

Nothing is going to convince me that Derrick shouldn't have been the primary point guard last year.  Nothing.  So was he a good option?  No.  Should Dawson have been given more minutes as a back up?  Yes.  But was Derrick the best option to receive starter's minutes?  Absolutely.

And with that, I am done with this debate for good.  The horse is a bloody pulp that even the glue factory wouldn't accept by this point.

I agree, and maybe we could even sum it up shorter:

MU needed better performance out of the PG spot last season. Neither Derrick or JD are 35mpg players, so it's up to the coach to figure out how to get the best performance(s) out of them. Buzz Williams failed in this area.

[Lennys Tap]

...and for what it's worth, Lenny needs a course in remedial math as his stats he cited are totally miscalculated...

Really?

I'll show you how I reached my "totally miscalculated" stats and you can show me where I'm wrong.

I said Derrick shot 39% on all field goals and Dawson shot 32%. Derrick made 61 of 156. 61/156 = .391, just over 39%. Dawson made 16 of 50. 16/50 = 32%.

I said Derrick scored .79 points per field goal attempt and Dawson scored .78. Derrick scored 123 points (60 2s and one 3 =123) on 156 attempts. 123/156 = .789. I rounded to .79. Dawson scored 39 points (9 2s and 7 3s) on 50 attempts. 39/50 =.78.

I said that Dawson averaged 30% more turnovers per minute than Derrick. Dawson had 17 in 245 minutes. 17/245 = .07 per minute. Derrick had 48 in 987 minutes. 48/987 = .049 per minute. So Dawson actually had slightly more than 40% (42.9%) more TOs per minute.

I'll let you do the rest of the recalculating. Please show your work. Thanks.

[NersEllenson]

+1

Why is a guy who is historically bad at his position in high major basketball the best option to receive starters minutes...especially when the one game his alternative was given those starters minutes...he played really well?

[tower912]

Why is it so important that everyone agree with you on this?    Do you get some sort of prize if you can beat everyone down until you achieve unanimity?    You have spent a thousand posts on this.   No matter how many times you say the same thing, it will not change my opinion on this issue.   

[MU82]

I agree, and maybe we could even sum it up shorter:

MU needed better performance out of the PG spot last season. Neither Derrick or JD are 35mpg players, so it's up to the coach to figure out how to get the best performance(s) out of them. Buzz Williams failed in this area.

Wonderfully stated.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I agree, and maybe we could even sum it up shorter:

MU needed better performance out of the PG spot last season. Neither Derrick or JD are 35mpg players, so it's up to the coach to figure out how to get the best performance(s) out of them. Buzz Williams failed in this area.

I'll throw in my support for this statement.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

First...there's about 5 of you in this debate that can't take me seriously on the topic..and have battled all season long on it:  Tower, Tamu, Sultan, Ammo, You, Jesmu84....none of you could let go of the assertion that Derrick was the best option at PG last season...though Sultan waffled somewhat at least...you all thought it and team would get better as season went on..and some have even tried to argue Derrick improved over the course of the season....I mean...just ridiculous...go look at his last 5 games of the year...

Ners, 5 guys on the internet have a different opinion than you. Why is that so difficult to accept? None of us are leading experts in basketball strategy. All of us know a little bit more than the casual fan. We look at the same two players, the same stats, the same results, and we come to two different conclusions. It happens all the time. Why is that such a terrible thing?

[MU82]

Ners, 5 guys on the internet have a different opinion than you. Why is that so difficult to accept? None of us are leading experts in basketball strategy. All of us know a little bit more than the casual fan. We look at the same two players, the same stats, the same results, and we come to two different conclusions. It happens all the time. Why is that such a terrible thing?

Because, to quote the legendary Ivan Drago ... "I must break you."

[Skatastrophy]

Why is a guy who is historically bad at his position in high major basketball the best option to receive starters minutes...especially when the one game his alternative was given those starters minutes...he played really well?

Derrick had a good A/T ratio & no supporting cast. He didn't get repeatedly lost on defense and rarely dribbled the ball off of his foot.

I believe that he was as good as Cadougan, but that Cadougan had more talent around him.

I believe that Dawson would have struggled mightily had we given him more minutes. He would have struggled in different ways (turnovers & getting lost in offensive/defensive sets) but he would have struggled.

Buzz stuck with his steady PG because, I believe, he thought that the risk was too great for the potential reward of giving Dawson minutes. I don't think that Buzz was wrong.

[MU82]

Derrick had a good A/T ratio & no supporting cast. He didn't get repeatedly lost on defense and rarely dribbled the ball off of his foot.

I believe that he was as good as Cadougan, but that Cadougan had more talent around him.

I can't say this nicely without sounding like a dick, so a dick I shall be.

You're outta your friggin' mind.

Cadougan wasn't Chris Paul, but he could shoot well enough to keep defenses honest, could make free throws, could break down a defense with the dribble and kick out to teammates for wide-open jumpers and, in case you forgot, could display cajones the size of cantaloupes by hitting a tying 3 against UConn.

Junior had more turnovers because he endeavored to create more. He wasn't satisfied standing 30 feet from the basket and passing it to the guy standing next to him. He tried to make his teammates better, and he succeeded well enough to help his team go S16-S16-E8.

Buzz constantly said he should start Derrick over Junior, but it obviously was something to motivate Junior because Derrick never did start over Junior, who averaged more than twice as many minutes as Derrick -- thank God.

Derrick is a better defender than Junior was, but Junior wasn't awful on that end. And like first base, PG is not a defensive position. The PG needs to deliver some extra-base hits ... and Derrick has delivered none in three years.

Please.