Emory U study: Best fans in College Football

[GGGG]

Ron Wolf was hired in 1991...my senior year.  I went to plenty of games prior to Ron Wolf.  Maybe a little fact checking by you would be good.  

I actually grew up in Texas, Panama, Peru, California, etc.

Here were some of the games I went to.... 1991 Packers vs Colts at County Stadium 42,000 fans.  None of the three games in County Stadium that year sold out, including the Cowboys game (which I went to).  Or later that year at Lambeau when they drew only 44,000 for the Lions game.  Those were the start of the Ron Wolf era.

In 1988, 44K for the Lions game at County Stadium...I was that game.  Dreadful.  Went to a few others in the pre-Wolf era, dreadful support.  Reminded me of the stellar support UW-madison was getting while playing #1 Miami at Camp Randall and drawing about 35K if I recall.  Dreadful

Oh...so I was wrong about when you were in school.

But do you know why people didn't attend games in County Stadium?  It wasn't because they were "fair-weather."  It's because the stadium sucked horribly for football games.  Out of the 60,000 (or so) seats, about 10,000 had any sort of decent view.

At the same time that was going on, Lambeau was packed for every game and there was a season ticket waiting list.  My family has been on that list since the late 70s, but never went to games at County Stadium.  Hell, I remember watching "blacked out" County Stadium games in jam packed downtown Milwaukee bars because you couldn't see anything from the seats that were still available.  And this was after they got good under Wolf.

You and brew are simply wrong.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Ok like I said believe what you want. You and brew are both off base maybe you needed to get off campus.

Brew  your statement that the packer support of the 80s was the same as bucks support now is laughable. Of course the fan support goes down when the team is losing but in general the packer fans are extremely loyal.

So we should ignore the attendance figures I gave previously...apparently those people not only got off campus they got so far off campus (and out of the state) they didn't bother to attend the games.  LOL

[GGGG]

So we should ignore the attendance figures I gave previously...apparently those people not only got off campus they got so far off campus (and out of the state) they didn't bother to attend the games.  LOL

Is there anything for which you don't view yourself as an expert?

I don't think I have encountered someone who is so incredibly wrong so often, yet continues to insist he is right.  It's amazing.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Oh...so I was wrong about when you were in school.

But do you know why people didn't attend games in County Stadium?  It wasn't because they were "fair-weather."  It's because the stadium sucked horribly for football games.  Out of the 60,000 (or so) seats, about 10,000 had any sort of decent view.

At the same time that was going on, Lambeau was packed for every game and there was a season ticket waiting list.  My family has been on that list since the late 70s, but never went to games at County Stadium.  Hell, I remember watching "blacked out" County Stadium games in jam packed downtown Milwaukee bars because you couldn't see anything from the seats that were still available.  And this was after they got good under Wolf.

You and brew are simply wrong.

So these overly loyal fans that have a chance to be heard and cheer on their team are not going because the stadium wasn't great?  Sounds like loyalty defined.      Having attended a number of games at County Stadium, I don't disagree with you on the aesthetics, but when you have only 8 home games every year, these loyal fans should be going regardless of where the game is played....Lambeau or County.  Certain games they managed to get 55K in there, and others they couldn't get 43K....did they change the configuration for those games or were they willing to suck it up and still be there? 

As I also pointed out, games in Lambeau had some terrible showings as well.  Plenty of games where they couldn't even draw 50K during that time period.  I realize there was the snow bowl where less than 20K arrived in 1985, I'm talking other games where fans just decided they weren't so loyal.

I don't think we are wrong at all...Packers fans were pretty quiet in the 1980's and Bears fans very vocal.  Packers fans had trouble getting to games apparently in the 1980's as well, for such a loyal fan base.  I would expect a packed house for every game, and that's not what happened.  Sometimes woefully short in that department.  This isn't a rip on the Packers fans, it happens everywhere, but for some reason Packers fans think it doesn't apply to them. It most certainly does, the numbers don't lie...even in Lambeau.  Bad team, people stay home.

[hairy worthen]

Chicos

Every resource I could find says the packers sold out every game since 1965, a record. Does not square with your account

[GGGG]

Chicos

Every resource I could find says the packers sold out every game since 1965, a record. Does not square with your account

In Green Bay.  They did not sell out all their games in Milwaukee.

[hairy worthen]

In Green Bay.  They did not sell out all their games in Milwaukee.

I don't think so skink. I am not computer saavy enough to attach the articles, but from several different sources including js, the sell out record dates back to 1960 And DOES include co stadium.  I think chicos is talking out of his ass again. His wife must be a saint

[hairy worthen]

[GGGG]

I don't think so skink. I am not computer saavy enough to attach the articles, but from several different sources including js, the sell out record dates back to 1960 And DOES include co stadium.  I think chicos is talking out of his ass again. His wife must be a saint

I remember when they blacked out games because they weren't sold out in Milwaukee. 

[hairy worthen]

I remember when they blacked out games because they weren't sold out in Milwaukee. 

I do kind of remember that too although none in the 80s for sure. Maybe preseason. Anyway, everything I read says sold out since 1960 including milwaukee

[GGGG]

Hairy, I remember sitting downtown watching a pirated game against the Tampa Bay Bucs in Favre's first year...and they were in the playoff hunt.  (I was sitting next to Marc Marotta too.)  Now they could simply not have met the blackout deadline and eventually sold out...and that could be what the issue is.

[WI inferiority Complexes]

I don't think so skink. I am not computer saavy enough to attach the articles, but from several different sources including js, the sell out record dates back to 1960 And DOES include co stadium.  I think chicos is talking out of his ass again. His wife must be a saint

On December 13, 1987, 47,059 came to see the Packers host the Vikings at County Stadium.  Earlier that season, 50,624 came to County to see the GB host Denver while 50,038 saw them host Tampa Bay.

1988 saw crowds of 51,932 and 44,327 at County, while '89 saw crowds of 54K, 53K and 55K

Unless County Stadium kept elminating and replacing 7,000+ seats, the Packers did not sell out every game at County.  (I don't care about the Packers and honestly rarely watch any football, so I haven't looked at any other years).

[hairy worthen]

WI inferiority,

Could be the difference between tickets sold and fannies in seat.

[chapman]

Saw a large correlation to Forbes' franchise value rankings.  If anything, Forbes might have been closer with some than the list that was actually trying to measure it.  The Jaguars sea of empty...ahem, "closed off to avoid blackout" seats aren't in the bottom five?

Top 5 "Fan Loyalty", and Forbes team value:

1. Cowboys (1)
2. Patriots (2)
3. Jets (6)
4. Saints (23) - outlier
5. Giants (4)

And the Bottom 5:

28. Lions (28)
29. Buccaneers (17) - outlier
30. Cardinals (24)
31. Falcons (26)
32. Raiders (32)

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chicos

Every resource I could find says the packers sold out every game since 1965, a record. Does not square with your account

I don't recall saying anything where they didn't sell out.  I said getting fans there...i.e. fannies in the seats.  The NFL is the only organization that I'm aware of that reports people in the seats, not tickets sold.  In other words, they report no-shows.

Lots of no shows in the 1980's by the loyal fans.

Let me give you a few examples...starting in 1985 Lambeau's capacity was 56,926 people after adding 663 club seats. In 1990, the capacity increased to 59,543.

OK, so now we know where the capacity is, yet here are the numbers of people that showed up

12-1-85   19,856   The famous snow bowl against Tampa...ok, bad weather, we'll give you that one.
11-9-86   47,728 (almost 10K no shows...83.8% of capacity)
12-7-86   47,637 ("   "   ")
10-11-87  35,779  (strike game with replacement players, we'll give you that one)
10-18-87  35,842  ("    "         "             "            ")
12-11-88  48,892 (against the Vikings no less)
12-12-90  46,700  (78.4% of capacity..against the Lions)
12-15-91  43,881  (I was at the game....73.7% of capacity)

A whole slew of games between 50K and 53K...not bad, but about 88% to 92% capacity

During the same time, a bunch in Milwaukee that weren't at capacity, and some that were.

Look, Packers are great fans, but they respond just like most other sets of fans when the team is bad.  They stay home.  To hear the "legend" about certain fan groups, Packers included, you would think that despite rain, shine, snow, or zero wins they are packing every seat in the stadium.  Sorry, facts get in the way.  Didn't happen.  I don't know why Packer fans are so defensive about it, it is what it is.  Now I may be accused of only living in Wisconsin for 11 years so that isn't long enough to understand, but Brew has lived there his whole life. I know what I saw in those 11 years which included massive suckitude in the 80's and then a great team that went to back to back Super Bowls in the 90's.  The level of fandom during the latter was on steroids vs when they sucked....as would be expected.  People came out of the woodwork.

[forgetful]

The whole methodology was flawed.  I'm surprised that people disagree with Green Bay having the most loyal fans.  They stick with their team no matter what, they'll complain about them, but they are still big GB fans.

Compare that to the Cowboys who are number 1.  They do bail on their team each year if they are struggling.  They are number 1, because they manipulate the stadium capacity to use the low end configuration, but then alter the seating arrangement if they want to, leading to an over 100% of capacity.  That doesn't reflect actual capacity, since they are short changing it.

It's like if GB could increase capacity when the Bears are in town to be 100k, but dial it back down to 70k for everyone else.

A good idea of how loyal fans are.  Green Bay is one of only 3 teams averaging over 100% of capacity on the road.  The other two, Bears and Pitt.

[hairy worthen]

You chose 8 games over a 6 year time span and all were sold out but that's neither here nor there. I am not defensive. Brew made the assertion that packer fans are fair weather fans going so far as to say he saw more bear apparel in Milwaukee than packers in the 80s. I am saying that is ridiculous and definitely not the case
Of course fan support goes down when the team Sucks, the bottom line is fans still bought the tickets. No team has had such a sell out streak through good and bad times. it is not just me saying it. You are big on research, look it up, packer fans are consistently at or near the top in team loyalty

[GGGG]

Hairy...here is an article that actually referenced the game I talked about.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1368&dat=19921125&id=KoVQAAAAIBAJ&sjid=8BIEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4579,6555984

Now I am not sure if it ended up selling out or not.

But I will point out that the Indy game that Chicos references would have been within that 10 game window, and therefore those attendance figures are likely those who showed up and not just tickets sold.

[hairy worthen]

Hairy...here is an article that actually referenced the game I talked about.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1368&dat=19921125&id=KoVQAAAAIBAJ&sjid=8BIEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4579,6555984

Now I am not sure if it ended up selling out or not.

But I will point out that the Indy game that Chicos references would have been within that 10 game window, and therefore those attendance figures are likely those who showed up and not just tickets sold.

Interesting I do vaguely remember that. The funny thing is many teams would love to have an almost sell out with a horrendus team. Those packer teams were hard to like, lots of off field problems too. 

[GGGG]

Interesting I do vaguely remember that. The funny thing is many teams would love to have an almost sell out with a horrendus team. Those packer teams were hard to like, lots of off field problems too. 

That year was Holmgren and Favre's first year.  They were in the middle of a big winning streak at that point.  Ironically the next week shows a lower attendance, but I distinctly remember watching that game on television.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Green_Bay_Packers_season

[brewcity77]

You chose 8 games over a 6 year time span and all were sold out but that's neither here nor there. I am not defensive. Brew made the assertion that packer fans are fair weather fans going so far as to say he saw more bear apparel in Milwaukee than packers in the 80s. I am saying that is ridiculous and definitely not the case
Of course fan support goes down when the team Sucks, the bottom line is fans still bought the tickets. No team has had such a sell out streak through good and bad times. it is not just me saying it. You are big on research, look it up, packer fans are consistently at or near the top in team loyalty

1) You are propagating the false mythos that leads to the Packers fan superiority that is simply not true. But fine...so be it. When the screw inevitably turns, tons of Packers fans will dry up.

2) How many individual seats do the Packers sell? Isn't every seat at Lambeau a season ticket? A sellout streak means little if all the seats aren't being used. In addition, the Packers are hardly the only NFL team with thousands of their names on a season ticket waiting list. Atlanta, Chicago, New England, Denver, New Orleans, and many more have thousands of names on their wait lists. The Packers aren't close to unique in that regard.

3) So this article is false because they found the Packers aren't anything special, but all the other sources are accurate because they tell you what you want to hear? The Packers have the most overrated fanbase I've ever seen that is only propped up by the fortune of following Favre with Rodgers.

4) Go ahead. Believe the Packers fans are some supernatural entity of loyalty. I disagree and my own experience here has taught me that. I'm not saying no one cared in the 1980s, but a huge portion of people that "care" now wouldn't give a crap if the team wasn't winning.

[hairy worthen]

Brew,

we just disagree, your supporting evidence is very weak. You saying the fan base is over rated does not make it so. it is not just me saying it. There are plenty of publications reporting the same thing.

[brewcity77]

Brew,

we just disagree, your supporting evidence is very weak. You saying the fan base is over rated does not make it so. it is not just me saying it. There are plenty of publications reporting the same thing.

EDIT: I'm going to excuse myself from this one. It's an impossible argument because it basically comes down to conflicting opinions of the 1980s and agreeing with different studies. Until the Packers have another bad decade or so, all we can debate is our personal memories, which of course aren't very debatable.

[ChicosBailBonds]

You chose 8 games over a 6 year time span and all were sold out but that's neither here nor there. I am not defensive. Brew made the assertion that packer fans are fair weather fans going so far as to say he saw more bear apparel in Milwaukee than packers in the 80s. I am saying that is ridiculous and definitely not the case
Of course fan support goes down when the team Sucks, the bottom line is fans still bought the tickets. No team has had such a sell out streak through good and bad times. it is not just me saying it. You are big on research, look it up, packer fans are consistently at or near the top in team loyalty

I never said they didn't buy tickets nor at or near the top in "loyalty", however that is measured.  There isn't a whole lot going on up in Green Bay, of course they are going to buy tickets and will for generations to come.  To me, that's the easy part.  The loyalty part comes in when the chips are down, the weather is cold an you only have to go to 8 games a year and you stay home.  That shows loyalty.

I chose those games as some of the bigger outliers, but there are many more.  My point is that there is a perception out there that the Packer fans are somehow immune to this stuff when the team sucks, and they are not.  There are diehard Packer fans (just as there are Cowboys, Skins, Lions, etc, etc) and bandwagoners.  It is what it is.  To this day, I'll bet people that claimed to be at the Icebowl reached 250K even though the stadium back then held 50K.    

I'm with Brew on this, people getting way to defensive.  I know what I saw in the 1980's vs the 1990's when they were winning, the comparisons are so on the opposite sides of the spectrum it isn't funny.  In the 1990's I used to go out and golf on the public courses on Sundays because no one was there, I could get a round down in 2.5 hours.  It was great. In the 1980's, not even close.  Doesn't mean there weren't diehards in the 1980's, of course there were, but they were often quiet, or stewing in their beer because the team sucked so bad.  For those of us out of staters, we used to just watch and laugh while the Bears students would just pile drive the Packers students every Sunday.  Not much the Packer fans could do, there was no comparison on the field.

[ChicosBailBonds]

The whole methodology was flawed.  I'm surprised that people disagree with Green Bay having the most loyal fans.  They stick with their team no matter what, they'll complain about them, but they are still big GB fans.

Compare that to the Cowboys who are number 1.  They do bail on their team each year if they are struggling.  They are number 1, because they manipulate the stadium capacity to use the low end configuration, but then alter the seating arrangement if they want to, leading to an over 100% of capacity.  That doesn't reflect actual capacity, since they are short changing it.

It's like if GB could increase capacity when the Bears are in town to be 100k, but dial it back down to 70k for everyone else.

A good idea of how loyal fans are.  Green Bay is one of only 3 teams averaging over 100% of capacity on the road.  The other two, Bears and Pitt.

Care to expand on this?  The capacity is fixed, but they are one of the few stadiums that has standing room only tickets.  The capacity is 80,000 for fixed seats, which is also what the NFL uses to set their limits.  No one is manipulating their attendance, this is how the NFL counts capacity based on fixed seats.  Now, the Cowboys can sell SRO which don't have a seat and that number of people in the building can climb for special events, etc.  The capacity never changes per the NFL, it is 80,000.