Are College Sports About To Change In Ways We Don't Understand?

[Galway Eagle]

As a benchmark ... the Lions Matthew Stafford signed a new contract this offseason:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000216954/article/matthew-stafford-detroit-lions-reach-new-contract

NFL.com's Albert Breer, per two sources involved in the negotiations, reported Tuesday that the total value of the three-year extension for Stafford will be $53 million, putting his five-year haul at $76.5 million. Stafford will receive $41.5 million guaranteed and, according to ProFootballTalk.com, a $27.5 million signing bonus. The totals make sense. The extension pays Stafford nearly $18 million on average per season. That's roughly the same per-year average as Tony Romo. Not coincidentally, Stafford and Romo share the same agent.

So Stafford made about $60 million over four years AND he keeps the rights to his image and sells and makes a significant amount of money off it.

Now, if we assume that Denard Robinson and Michigan are MORE marketable than Stafford and the Lions, I would but Robinson's worth to Michigan, over his four year career, at $80 to $100 million.  Less $250,000 for four years of room and board, Michigan should pay home $79.75 to $99.75 million if they wanted to compensate him fairly.

I disagree that you can argue that Michigan is more marketable.  I mean look at the money the NFL makes vs B1G or NCAA brings in from football.  

In all fairness Michigan vs Lions might be one of the few unfair comparisons though. 

[Tugg Speedman]

I disagree that you can argue that Michigan is more marketable.  I mean look at the money the NFL makes vs B1G or NCAA brings in from football.  

In all fairness Michigan vs Lions might be one of the few unfair comparisons though. 

Would you argue it is 75% as marketable?  If so then Robinson's fair value to Michigan is $60 to $80 million.  Is it 50%?  then $40 to $60 million.  Or 25%?  Then $20 to $40 million.

Even at 25%, tuition room and board is a meaningless rounding error.

[forgetful]

Forgetful watch this video this is what college hoops 2k13 looks like you're going to tell me that even though the game used names, numbers, and likeness that it's ok?  (gotta get through the intro which is like 25seconds)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCBXYxsOI7w

The game didn't use names.  The individual downloaded the names/rosters from an independent site, not aligned with EA sports, the NCAA or any other organization. 

Again, I have no issue with it.  As I said, I have been used in commercials without being contacted first.  However, I did sign papers granting rights, so I have no issue with this.  Similarly, the players, in my opinion, have no rights here as they also signed them away.

[Tugg Speedman]

Forgetful watch this video this is what college hoops 2k13 looks like you're going to tell me that even though the game used names, numbers, and likeness that it's ok?  (gotta get through the intro which is like 25seconds)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCBXYxsOI7w

Also see the end of the video when the coach of tOSU and MU shake hands.  They look nothing like Buzz and Thad Motta.  Why?  Because coaches own their images and their rate is took high for EA.  Players are a baragain as they licensing all of them cheaply.

So, why don't the universities own the coaches images like the players to make money for the institutions????

[Tugg Speedman]

The game didn't use names.  The individual downloaded the names/rosters from an independent site, not aligned with EA sports, the NCAA or any other organization. 

So is that independent site breaking the law by using these images?

[forgetful]

So is that independent site breaking the law by using these images?

As I already said, I have zero legal background sufficient to answer such a question, just provided my opinion and corollaries to things I do know a little about.

My guess would be yes, they are breaking the law.  They are attaching the players names (which could be a violation of their amateur status...therefore actual damages).

[Jay Bee]

There have been no college basketball games EVEN MADE for xbox/ps3 since 2010 (NCAA 2010 was the last one).

The last 2k game was 2k8.

Stop making up lies!!!!!!!!

[MarsupialMadness]

There have been no college basketball games EVEN MADE for xbox/ps3 since 2010 (NCAA 2010 was the last one).

The last 2k game was 2k8.

Stop making up lies!!!!!!!!

Exactly.  And the reason there have been no college basketball games in 3-4 years is because EA Sports and 2K Sports won't take on the risk.  The threats of lawsuits and high price tag for licensing isn't worth the "small" revenue.  College Basketball games were never the highlight of sports gaming.  College Football, on the other hand, is a huge source of revenue for EA Sports, so they never gave that up, even though they've known for a while now that a storm has been brewing.

[Tugg Speedman]

How much are players worth and what should they get paid?

WSJ story today

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324769704579009000024241682.html?mod=wsj_share_tweet

The Writing on the Wall for the NCAA

... This all feels like a prelude to a bigger show: Former UCLA basketball player Ed O'Bannon's potentially earth-moving lawsuit against the NCAA, which argues that college sports' governing body has unjustly profited off of players' images, while denying players the same right.

...

The manicured hand behind the curtain, of course, is television, and the lucrative contracts it rewards for championships and tournaments, rearranging the college sports landscape for maximum attention and ratings. It is silly to maintain that stars don't factor into this economy; like a summer blockbuster, names are essential to move the merchandise, and there is as much star-making craftwork in college sports as there is on a studio lot. (Magazines don't put tradition and loyalty on the cover—they put Johnny Football.) A recent Journal story by Rachel Bachman and Ben Cohen cited a study by Joyce Julius & Associates, commissioned by Texas A&M itself, which found that Manziel helped generate $37 million in media exposure for the school last season. That is an astonishing feat. The system allows everyone a taste, except the athlete.

----------

above I said Denard Robinson value to Michigan over his four years was $80 to $100 million (for which he was paid $250k in tuition, room and board).  The bolded quote above suggests I might have been too low.

[forgetful]

How much are players worth and what should they get paid?

WSJ story today

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324769704579009000024241682.html?mod=wsj_share_tweet

The Writing on the Wall for the NCAA

... This all feels like a prelude to a bigger show: Former UCLA basketball player Ed O'Bannon's potentially earth-moving lawsuit against the NCAA, which argues that college sports' governing body has unjustly profited off of players' images, while denying players the same right.

...

The manicured hand behind the curtain, of course, is television, and the lucrative contracts it rewards for championships and tournaments, rearranging the college sports landscape for maximum attention and ratings. It is silly to maintain that stars don't factor into this economy; like a summer blockbuster, names are essential to move the merchandise, and there is as much star-making craftwork in college sports as there is on a studio lot. (Magazines don't put tradition and loyalty on the cover—they put Johnny Football.) A recent Journal story by Rachel Bachman and Ben Cohen cited a study by Joyce Julius & Associates, commissioned by Texas A&M itself, which found that Manziel helped generate $37 million in media exposure for the school last season. That is an astonishing feat. The system allows everyone a taste, except the athlete.

----------

above I said Denard Robinson value to Michigan over his four years was $80 to $100 million (for which he was paid $250k in tuition, room and board).  The bolded quote above suggests I might have been too low.

Fact of the matter is that if any of the athletes are injured, the next man up will generate exposure.  People don't watch college sports for the specific athletes name on the jersey.  They watch for the schools name on the front.  That is why, even though athletes leave at most every 4-6 years, people keep tuning in. 

Remove athlete x and the people keep watching.  So the value is in the school name, not the athlete, the school name has values because of the students, therefore the money should return to the school to improve the overall student experience (for athletes or non-athletes)

The individual athletes get exposure and name recognition, because of their association with the University.  We could flip this argument and discuss, the exposure value of playing for a blue-blood as far as it impacts career earnings.  If we look at that type of financial analysis, I think you will see that the athletes are far better compensated.

As far as Denard Robinson, if you went down the street and asked 50 people if they knew who he was, maybe one woulds say yes.  He does not have $80-100 million dollar value, his value is associated with the Michigan name.

[Tugg Speedman]

Fact of the matter is that if any of the athletes are injured, the next man up will generate exposure.  People don't watch college sports for the specific athletes name on the jersey.  They watch for the schools name on the front.  That is why, even though athletes leave at most every 4-6 years, people keep tuning in. 

Remove athlete x and the people keep watching.  So the value is in the school name, not the athlete, the school name has values because of the students, therefore the money should return to the school to improve the overall student experience (for athletes or non-athletes)

The individual athletes get exposure and name recognition, because of their association with the University.  We could flip this argument and discuss, the exposure value of playing for a blue-blood as far as it impacts career earnings.  If we look at that type of financial analysis, I think you will see that the athletes are far better compensated.

As far as Denard Robinson, if you went down the street and asked 50 people if they knew who he was, maybe one woulds say yes.  He does not have $80-100 million dollar value, his value is associated with the Michigan name.

How is this different from the NFL?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

How much are players worth and what should they get paid?

WSJ story today

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324769704579009000024241682.html?mod=wsj_share_tweet

The Writing on the Wall for the NCAA

... This all feels like a prelude to a bigger show: Former UCLA basketball player Ed O'Bannon's potentially earth-moving lawsuit against the NCAA, which argues that college sports' governing body has unjustly profited off of players' images, while denying players the same right.

...

The manicured hand behind the curtain, of course, is television, and the lucrative contracts it rewards for championships and tournaments, rearranging the college sports landscape for maximum attention and ratings. It is silly to maintain that stars don't factor into this economy; like a summer blockbuster, names are essential to move the merchandise, and there is as much star-making craftwork in college sports as there is on a studio lot. (Magazines don't put tradition and loyalty on the cover—they put Johnny Football.) A recent Journal story by Rachel Bachman and Ben Cohen cited a study by Joyce Julius & Associates, commissioned by Texas A&M itself, which found that Manziel helped generate $37 million in media exposure for the school last season. That is an astonishing feat. The system allows everyone a taste, except the athlete.

----------

above I said Denard Robinson value to Michigan over his four years was $80 to $100 million (for which he was paid $250k in tuition, room and board).  The bolded quote above suggests I might have been too low.

Here's the thing:

If Denard doesn't like the deal, then Denard doesn't have to play at Michigan. He can do whatever else he wants.

I'd prefer the free market decide this (maybe a league that pays 18yr olds to play football?) vs the courts deciding what is "fair".

If (insert player) doesn't think a scholarship is enough compensation, then (insert player) can chose a different career.

[Tugg Speedman]

Here's the thing:

If Denard doesn't like the deal, then Denard doesn't have to play at Michigan. He can do whatever else he wants.

I'd prefer the free market decide this (maybe a league that pays 18yr olds to play football?) vs the courts deciding what is "fair".

If (insert player) doesn't think a scholarship is enough compensation, then (insert player) can chose a different career.

In general I agree with you but we make rules all the time.  College sports have Title IX.  Are you against that too?  If girl athletes did not like pre- title IX, why not just tell them to chose an another career?  How about affirmative action?  If minorities do not like it, they can do something else.

Why are we (not you specifically) so libertarian about athletes but not when it comes to women and minorities we are not?

[forgetful]

How is this different from the NFL?

Bo Jackson injured himself in 1990, never played football again.  He continued to play baseball.  People still remember him as a great athlete.  How many people remember who he played for?

Kurt Schilling is known as a great pitcher, for his bloody sock, not necessarily for who he played for.  How many remember that he played for the phillies or diamondbacks.

[forgetful]

In general I agree with you but we make rules all the time.  College sports have Title IX.  Are you against that too?  If girl athletes did not like pre- title IX, why not just tell them to chose an another career?  How about affirmative action?  If minorities do not like it, they can do something else.

Why are we (not you specifically) so libertarian about athletes but not when it comes to women and minorities we are not?

Honestly, I think this post is the point where this thread officially jumped the shark.  The NCAA regulation is something they voluntarily sign into, they could choose to forgo NCAA play for Europe or other professional leagues.  They don't because the NCAA bring them more recognition and future career earnings potential (see how that works), so they choose the best option for their long-term earning potential.

Title IX and affirmative action are federal laws and regulations that you are required to obey.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

In general I agree with you but we make rules all the time.  College sports have Title IX.  Are you against that too?  If girl athletes did not like pre- title IX, why not just tell them to chose an another career?  How about affirmative action?  If minorities do not like it, they can do something else.

Why are we (not you specifically) so libertarian about athletes but not when it comes to women and minorities we are not?

Well, I think title 9 is because universities are using federal tax dollars. I'm not an expert though.

But, I see your overall point. I guess for me, I'd rather have the amateur players attempt to unionize and go on strike. At least that would be a more organic way of eliciting change. I'm not sure I need/want the court's involvement on this one.

There is a laundry list of 18yr olds who would trade playing (insert sport) for a scholarship. We are focusing on a verrrrry tiny percentage of players that could potentially profit from their likeness.

[Tugg Speedman]

Well, I think title 9 is because universities are using federal tax dollars. I'm not an expert though.

But, I see your overall point. I guess for me, I'd rather have the amateur players attempt to unionize and go on strike. At least that would be a more organic way of eliciting change. I'm not sure I need/want the court's involvement on this one.

There is a laundry list of 18yr olds who would trade playing (insert sport) for a scholarship. We are focusing on a verrrrry tiny percentage of players that could potentially profit from their likeness.

I don't think the players can unionize.  They are not employed but are students.  And, the universities would be scared of that.  If student can unionize, then all the students can unionize and walk out until the unviserity gives into their demands (say cut tuition and fees).

----

Go back in history to the 1960s and 1970s.  The AAU was the governing body for track & field.  They insisted on amateur status for their athletes even though the AAU made millions off these meets (in the 1960s track meets between the USA and USSR was network prime-time events).  Athletes like Steve Prefontaine fought their unfair and arbitrary rules resulting Amateur Sports Act of 1978 that stripped the AAU as the governing body and established the United States Olympic Committee (USOC).  At that point athletes could start getting paid and professionals could compete in the Olympics.  (the AAU continues today as a voluntary organization)

What O'Bannon is suing for and what could happen to the NCAA is a repeat of this fight.  We went through this fight 40 years ago and now we have professionals in the Olympics.

We are going through this fight all over again and it will result in professionals in college.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I don't think the players can unionize.  They are not employed but are students.  And, the universities would be scared of that.  If student can unionize, then all the students can unionize and walk out until the unviserity gives into their demands (say cut tuition and fees).

----

Go back in history to the 1960s and 1970s.  The AAU was the governing body for track & field.  They insisted on amateur status for their athletes even though the AAU made millions off these meets (in the 1960s track meets between the USA and USSR was network prime-time events).  Athletes like Steve Prefontaine fought their unfair and arbitrary rules resulting Amateur Sports Act of 1978 that stripped the AAU as the governing body and established the United States Olympic Committee (USOC).  At that point athletes could start getting paid and professionals could compete in the Olympics.  (the AAU continues today as a voluntary organization)

What O'Bannon is suing for and what could happen to the NCAA is a repeat of this fight.  We went through this fight 40 years ago and now we have professionals in the Olympics.

We are going through this fight all over again and it will result in professionals in college.

Well, officially, I don't know if they can unionize, but it's all about supply and demand. If all D1 football players walk away from school until they "get paid", you can bet the schools will have to figure something out. If there are simply more kids lining up to play, then too bad for the guys who walked out.

I don't say any of this to be anti-union, or pro-big business... but this is simply the laws of supply and demand. There are a lot of kids out there willing to take a scholarship to play (insert sport).

If the top level kids think they are getting screwed, then they should just play something else.

[WarriorInNYC]

There should be an estimated value of the payments for say the video game added to the estimated value that the players bring in for playing ball minus room, food, books and tuition.  That's what players should get which would be just like them paying their way but still getting their fair cut of what they bring to the school. 

So does this estimated value get recalculated every year?  Obviously Vander Blue brought more "value" his junior year than he did his freshman year.  Does each player then become a "free agent" after each season, or if the athlete blows up is the school suddenly on the hook for paying the athlete their "value" regardless. 

What about non-revenue sports?  Britney Griner I'm sure brought in a lot of money for women's basketball, but that sport loses money.  How much does she get paid?

[barfolomew]

I don't think the players can unionize.  They are not employed but are students.  And, the universities would be scared of that.  If student can unionize, then all the students can unionize and walk out until the unviserity gives into their demands (say cut tuition and fees).

They must have been able to unionize, because on several different occasions at Marquette, I actually went inside the student union.

[Galway Eagle]

So does this estimated value get recalculated every year?  Obviously Vander Blue brought more "value" his junior year than he did his freshman year.  Does each player then become a "free agent" after each season, or if the athlete blows up is the school suddenly on the hook for paying the athlete their "value" regardless. 

What about non-revenue sports?  Britney Griner I'm sure brought in a lot of money for women's basketball, but that sport loses money.  How much does she get paid?

A few things, I wasn't talking about each player I did a bad job of stating that.  Determine a collective value and divide it equally.  And regarding non revenue sports why would they get paid?  This is purely about the sports that schools are making tons of money off of the players (football, basketball, and certain schools hockey)

[Tugg Speedman]

A few things, I wasn't talking about each player I did a bad job of stating that.  Determine a collective value and divide it equally.  And regarding non revenue sports why would they get paid?  This is purely about the sports that schools are making tons of money off of the players (football, basketball, and certain schools hockey)

Only fair way to do this is let them hire agents and negotiate contracts to play for schools.

BTW, from the late 19th century to early 20th century college players could be paid and some even played more than four years.

O'Bannon wants to back to the future.

[The Equalizer]

Here is the cover of the EA Sports NCAA 14 that was released July 9.

Denard Robinson got nothing for this.  Michigan is getting paid for this cover.

You think this is fair?

I'm amused by your continued use of the word "nothing."

Denard Robinson got an education, room and board actually valued at over $218,000 to him as a non-Michigan resident.
http://www.finaid.umich.edu/TopNav/AboutUMFinancialAid/CostofAttendance.aspx
Given that he avoided student loans, the ultimate value is probably far greater than $218K in avoided interest payments, but I'll let that slide.

In addition, he received valule in the form of access to professional coaches, facilities and exposure that enabled him to secure an entry level job that paid him a signing bonus of $213,000 and a starting salary of $458,000 for a total of $672,000 (compared to $51,300 first year compensation for all UMich grads).

What Denard Robinson actually got for allowing his image to be used is worth nearly a quarter-million dollars of added value from the University of Michigan above what non-football playing students received. 

[Jay Bee]

You guys sure Robinson didn't get paid by EA to be on the cover? Double check.

Lots of lies and nonsense in this thread. Awful.

[forgetful]

You guys sure Robinson didn't get paid by EA to be on the cover? Double check.

Lots of lies and nonsense in this thread. Awful.

I love the fact that the sky is falling people report on games that don't exist and individuals whose likenesses are being used (when they themselves struct a licensing deal with EA (denard robinson)).