Arms race of athletic facilities....taj mahal down south

[Lennys Tap]

For some of these communities and states, this is their way of being relevant nationally.   Look at the firestorm if Milwaukee was going to lose the Brewers or Bucks....OMG OMG OMG.  "We will be a second class city...we will no longer be major league".   Now put yourself in South Carolina, Boise, Eugene, Alabama, Mississippi, etc, and this is their ticket to the big time.  Or so the thinking goes.

When the Sonics left did Seattle become a second class city? Did Oklahoma City become a first class one? Perceptions are often light years away from reality.

[MerrittsMustache]

Except the Cubs. Well, they can dream but still aren't going to win.

The Cubs are installing a jumbotron and more signage! Obviously a World Series is not far behind!

[ChicosBailBonds]

When the Sonics left did Seattle become a second class city? Did Oklahoma City become a first class one? Perceptions are often light years away from reality.

I agree entirely Lenny.  That's why I chuckle when people think a team leaving somehow leaves their city on the dustbin of history...and thus they are willing to cave and give up whatever they need to in funds, tax breaks, etc, etc to keep the team around.  It's not going to change, that perception lives and a lot of people buy into it.   Don't get me wrong, I would be hurt as a fan if my favorite team left the area, but plenty of great cities that don't have major league teams.

[Galway Eagle]

I agree entirely Lenny.  That's why I chuckle when people think a team leaving somehow leaves their city on the dustbin of history...and thus they are willing to cave and give up whatever they need to in funds, tax breaks, etc, etc to keep the team around.  It's not going to change, that perception lives and a lot of people buy into it.   Don't get me wrong, I would be hurt as a fan if my favorite team left the area, but plenty of great cities that don't have major league teams.

Sheboygan Redskins, Rochester Royals, Waterloo Hawks, Anderson Packers, Tri Cities Blachhawks, Fort Wayne Pistons, Syracuse Nationals, Buffalo Braves.  Sure a bunch of cities have lost their NBA teams and have been ok but a great deal also lost their teams and are an after thought now.

[Lennys Tap]

I agree entirely Lenny.  That's why I chuckle when people think a team leaving somehow leaves their city on the dustbin of history...and thus they are willing to cave and give up whatever they need to in funds, tax breaks, etc, etc to keep the team around.  It's not going to change, that perception lives and a lot of people buy into it.   Don't get me wrong, I would be hurt as a fan if my favorite team left the area, but plenty of great cities that don't have major league teams.

+1. I confess to hypocrisy here. Every working brain cell screams "leave" and "good riddance" when I hear of a team trying to blackmail a city, but when the White Sox were threatening to leave Chicago I would have supported almost any measure that ensured their remaining.

[Lennys Tap]

Sheboygan Redskins, Rochester Royals, Waterloo Hawks, Anderson Packers, Tri Cities Blachhawks, Fort Wayne Pistons, Syracuse Nationals, Buffalo Braves.  Sure a bunch of cities have lost their NBA teams and have been ok but a great deal also lost their teams and are an after thought now.

Weren't they always an after thought? When I think world class cities none of them come or ever came to mind.

[Galway Eagle]

Weren't they always an after thought? When I think world class cities none of them come or ever came to mind.

Wait we were talking world class cities? My bad

[ChicosBailBonds]

Sheboygan Redskins, Rochester Royals, Waterloo Hawks, Anderson Packers, Tri Cities Blachhawks, Fort Wayne Pistons, Syracuse Nationals, Buffalo Braves.  Sure a bunch of cities have lost their NBA teams and have been ok but a great deal also lost their teams and are an after thought now.

Chicken or the egg.

Did the teams leave those cities because the cities and the surrounding population couldn't support them, or did the cities suffer as a result of the teams leaving?  I'm putting my money on the former, not the latter.

Los Angeles Rams.  Los Angeles Raiders.  Chicago Cardinals.  Kansas City Kings.  Philadelphia Warriors.  Philadelphia A's. Kansas City Athletics.  Seattle Pilots.  San Diego Clippers.  Cleveland Rams.  Washington Senators.  Minnesota North Stars.  Vancouver Grizzlies.

Teams come and go.  Sometimes the cities get another team to replace them, sometimes they don't.  They're nice to have, can be an epicenter for civic pride, excitement, etc.  They can also be a resource drain and a stain as well.  There's usually good with the bad and vice versa, sports teams no exception.  I'm sure there are people out there that will say the Dodgers leaving Brooklyn killed that burrough, when in fact there were considerable problems for years leading up to their departure...the Dodgers just becomes the rallying cry and the easy to target "event". 

[ChicosBailBonds]

+1. I confess to hypocrisy here. Every working brain cell screams "leave" and "good riddance" when I hear of a team trying to blackmail a city, but when the White Sox were threatening to leave Chicago I would have supported almost any measure that ensured their remaining.

We all do....we all tend to overvalue this stuff.  Sports Human Nature.

[Spotcheck Billy]

If this happens it looks like the New Big East happened not a moment too soon.

Are there any schools left in BCS conferences WITHOUT football? If so I'd guess they are not going to like a further dividing point like this.

[Groin_pull]

We all do....we all tend to overvalue this stuff.  Sports Human Nature.

That's what teams count on to fill those high-priced seats and buy that high-priced team merchandise.

[Pakuni]

That's what teams count on to fill those high-priced seats and buy that high-priced team merchandise.

Except if people are willing to pay for it - heck, eager to pay for it - then it's not really overvalued.
I know it's de rigueur to roll out cliches about how we place too much importance on sports, athletes are paid too much, our priorities are out of line, etc. - and hey, maybe that's all true - but the market determines the value. If people in Wisconsin are willing to get on a waiting list 81,000 names long to pay $90 per ticket for end zone seats, then that's the value of those seats.

So Alabama spent $9 million to upgrade its facilities? Pfft. The program turned a $45 million profit last year.

[MerrittsMustache]

Except if people are willing to pay for it - heck, eager to pay for it - then it's not really overvalued.
I know it's de rigueur to roll out cliches about how we place too much importance on sports, athletes are paid too much, our priorities are out of line, etc. - and hey, maybe that's all true - but the market determines the value. If people in Wisconsin are willing to get on a waiting list 81,000 names long to pay $90 per ticket for end zone seats, then that's the value of those seats.

So Alabama spent $9 million to upgrade its facilities? Pfft. The program turned a $45 million profit last year.

The other $36MM went toward "recruiting."

[Buzz Williams' Spillproof Chiclets Cup]

No, I really want to root for a sport where the same 2-4 teams win every year. American sports are the paradigm of competition. It's not perfect, but at least every team really does have a chance to dream.

Somewhat ironic that you would say this on a board primarily devoted to basketball, as all but two NBA titles since 1980 have been won by the same 7 teams.

NBA Champions since 1980
1980: Lakers
1981: Celtics
1982: Lakers
1983: 76ers
1984: Celtics
1985: Lakers
1986: Celtics
1987: Lakers
1988: Lakers
1989: Pistons
1990: Pistons
1991: Bulls
1992: Bulls
1993: Bulls
1994: Rockets
1995: Rockets
1996: Bulls
1997: Bulls
1998: Bulls
1999: Spurs
2000: Lakers
2001: Lakers
2002: Lakers
2003: Spurs
2004: Pistons
2005: Spurs
2006: Heat
2007: Spurs
2008: Celtics
2009: Lakers
2010: Lakers
2011: Mavericks
2012: Heat
2013: Heat

[Galway Eagle]

Somewhat ironic that you would say this on a board primarily devoted to basketball, as all but two NBA titles since 1980 have been won by the same 7 teams.

NBA Champions since 1980
1980: Lakers
1981: Celtics
1982: Lakers
1983: 76ers
1984: Celtics
1985: Lakers
1986: Celtics
1987: Lakers
1988: Lakers
1989: Pistons
1990: Pistons
1991: Bulls
1992: Bulls
1993: Bulls
1994: Rockets
1995: Rockets
1996: Bulls
1997: Bulls
1998: Bulls
1999: Spurs
2000: Lakers
2001: Lakers
2002: Lakers
2003: Spurs
2004: Pistons
2005: Spurs
2006: Heat
2007: Spurs
2008: Celtics
2009: Lakers
2010: Lakers
2011: Mavericks
2012: Heat
2013: Heat

If you were to do it by finals appearances it's a bit better distributed overall but it does show how far ahead those handful of teams are: 

16x Lakers

7x Celtics

6x Bulls

5x Pistons

5x Spurs

4x 76ers

4x Rockets

4x Heat

2x Trail Blazers

2x Knicks

2x Jazz

2x Nets

2x Mavericks

2x Magic

1x Sonics

1x Pacers

1x Cavaliers

1x Suns

1x Thunder

[ChicosBailBonds]

Somewhat ironic that you would say this on a board primarily devoted to basketball, as all but two NBA titles since 1980 have been won by the same 7 teams.

NBA Champions since 1980
1980: Lakers
1981: Celtics
1982: Lakers
1983: 76ers
1984: Celtics
1985: Lakers
1986: Celtics
1987: Lakers
1988: Lakers
1989: Pistons
1990: Pistons
1991: Bulls
1992: Bulls
1993: Bulls
1994: Rockets
1995: Rockets
1996: Bulls
1997: Bulls
1998: Bulls
1999: Spurs
2000: Lakers
2001: Lakers
2002: Lakers
2003: Spurs
2004: Pistons
2005: Spurs
2006: Heat
2007: Spurs
2008: Celtics
2009: Lakers
2010: Lakers
2011: Mavericks
2012: Heat
2013: Heat

One of many reasons the NBA blows!   

We'll see if the new CBA and the luxury tax start to make it a bit more competitive for other teams.

[muwarrior69]

With a trillion dollars in student debt, I believe the student athletes are compensated fairly. I have no problem with capital expenditures such as new sports facilities, law schools, engineering facilities etc. My problem, especially with the tax funded state schools is the high cost of pensions for academics. The president of tOSU left her position and is now a congress woman. She collect a 250,000 dollar annual pension for life while at the same time collecting a 175,000 salary as a congress woman. I am sure she is just the tip of the iceberg. Here in New Jersey we have 12 state funded colleges and Universities. The average salary for the Presidents of those Universities is 230,000. They also get an annual 50,000 dollars for travel and 80,000 for living expenses. No wonder tuitions are so high and student have to go into debt to get an education.

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

Here in New Jersey we have 12 state funded colleges and Universities.

Wisconsin has, if I remember correctly, 13 4-year schools and 13 2-year schools, not to mention the tech schools which are also supported by tax dollars.

I can't speak to the tech schools, but it seems like Wisconsin must have the highest number of state-run higher ed schools per capita in the country. How many 4-year schools does Illinois have? 6?

[MUMonster03]

Somewhat ironic that you would say this on a board primarily devoted to basketball, as all but two NBA titles since 1980 have been won by the same 7 teams.

NBA Champions since 1980
1980: Lakers
1981: Celtics
1982: Lakers
1983: 76ers
1984: Celtics
1985: Lakers
1986: Celtics
1987: Lakers
1988: Lakers
1989: Pistons
1990: Pistons
1991: Bulls
1992: Bulls
1993: Bulls
1994: Rockets
1995: Rockets
1996: Bulls
1997: Bulls
1998: Bulls
1999: Spurs
2000: Lakers
2001: Lakers
2002: Lakers
2003: Spurs
2004: Pistons
2005: Spurs
2006: Heat
2007: Spurs
2008: Celtics
2009: Lakers
2010: Lakers
2011: Mavericks
2012: Heat
2013: Heat

Um, that would be 9 different team, Lakers, Celtics, 76ers, Pistons, Bulls, Rockets, Spurs, Heat, Mavericks and if you add in the other teams mentioned that made it to the finals it means 18 teams have played for the title since then (combining Seattle and OKC since they are the same team). Which is nearly 2/3rds of the league since 1980 having a shot at the title.

[MerrittsMustache]

Wisconsin has, if I remember correctly, 13 4-year schools and 13 2-year schools, not to mention the tech schools which are also supported by tax dollars.

I can't speak to the tech schools, but it seems like Wisconsin must have the highest number of state-run higher ed schools per capita in the country. How many 4-year schools does Illinois have? 6?

Illinois has 12 state universities.
Wisconsin has 13 state universities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_state_universities_in_the_United_States

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

Illinois has 12 state universities.
Wisconsin has 13 state universities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_state_universities_in_the_United_States

Four year schools. Your link suggests 9 for Illinois, with two schools having several campuses.

Let's cut down Wisconsin's number to be proportional to Illinois.

If Illinois has about 13M in population, divided by 9 schools, that's 1.44M per school. Wisconsin's population is about 5.7M. At that rate, Wisconsin needs about 4 4-year state schools.

[MerrittsMustache]

Four year schools. Your link suggests 9 for Illinois, with two schools having several campuses.

Let's cut down Wisconsin's number to be proportional to Illinois.

If Illinois has about 13M in population, divided by 9 schools, that's 1.44M per school. Wisconsin's population is about 5.7M. At that rate, Wisconsin needs about 4 4-year state schools.

Just curious, how do you get to 9? I realize Governors State is not yet a 4-year school, but that still leaves 11. 

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

Just curious, how do you get to 9? I realize Governors State is not yet a 4-year school, but that still leaves 11. 

I'm counting the university systems as one university, not the branches. It seems to me that counting the branches as independent universities would be like counting the satellite offices of places like the MU MBA program as a separate university.

[MerrittsMustache]

I'm counting the university systems as one university, not the branches. It seems to me that counting the branches as independent universities would be like counting the satellite offices of places like the MU MBA program as a separate university.

So then doesn't Wisconsin just have 1?

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

Why would it? They're independent universities with individual chancellors, etc.