Florida, Florida, Florida

[Hards Alumni]

  Read, unions and liberal policies.  That Cliffy enough for ya'?

Pretty convenient.  Fits your narrative, and ideology nicely.

[Jay Bee]

Pretty convenient.  Fits your narrative, and ideology nicely.

You guys really think you'll get McDonald's to double up your wages?

[ATL MU Warrior]

A person shouldn't have the right to defend himself, his family and his property?

Apparently you didn't notice the part that I bolded??

[tower912]

For those of you who know nothing of Michigan politics.....The Michigan constitution prohibits counties or municipalities from charging an additional sales tax, a la Cook County/Chicago.   In exchange, money from sales tax is supposed to return to the municipalities via a revenue sharing formula.   That formula got changed in the late 90's, and less and less money has been returned to the municipalities.    Detroit has suffered close to a billion dollar hit over the last 15 years, do to the diminished revenue sharing.   My city has been shorted nearly $50 million over that time.   I am not saying that there hasn't been massive corruption in Detroit.   There has been.   What I am saying is that there are more factors at work.   If the state had lived up to its obligations, Detroit would be in bad shape, but not bankrupt.   The current mayor, Dave Bing, is a good man who deserved better. 
    As far as the US auto industry, the unions have made some poor choices.   But their poor choices are peanuts compared to the idiocy, paternalism, nepotism, short-sightedness, inability to read markets, embarrassingly bad engineering, poorly chosen cost cutting decisions that have come from the top down.    Whereas I hold GZ 98% responsible for the events in Florida, I hold the auto industry's top management 85% responsible for the state it was in 6 years ago. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

LOL!  Good one.   

I am familiar, but still find it galling I guess. 

I wonder how you would feel if you had people putting death threats on you and your family, if you would find it galling.

[ChicosBailBonds]

This is classic you.  My degree is in Biomedical sciences, forgetful is a pharmacologist, but you know more about how drugs interact with the body than either of us.

CLASSIC.

Classic is not reading what I said.  I merely gave you what some of the experts have said are possible.  Strange that you only want to listen to "your experts".  Classic.   

[Eldon]

Unions and "liberal" economic policies (eg, unions, minimum wage) have hurt Detroit economically, no doubt.  However, this is the nature of all cities and urban areas.  But what makes Detroit different?

Clearly it's the auto-industry, and production more generally.  The high interest rates of the 80s (fighting inflation) got the dollar to an extremely high level.  This absolutely KILLED the US production hubs (since US exports became very expensive).  It took a huge hit on rustbelt cities.  Detroit especially.  In fact, not only is Detroit in steep decline, but so is Cleveland, Toledo, Buffalo, and even the Pittsburgh MSA lost population from 2000 Census to the 2010 Census.

Additionally, the advancement of technology has meant that manufacturing jobs have become relatively high tech, often requiring at least an associates degree.  Detroit's workforce, similar to the workforces of all rusbelt economies, is trained in a skill set that is no longer in demand, or at least, not as much as it used to be.  "Creative destruction" manifested, basically.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Actually, there was at least one instance where you said exactly this.  On this one you are actually talking about GM as though he were TM...but you still claim it as if it were a fact that TM was high.
Here are some where you state as fact that TM was making Lean...that's 100% pure conjecture, not fact.  You rail against others when they do this, yet it's no problem for the great Chicos, right?
This one may win the prize for disparaging a dead person.  TM wanted to be a drug dealer???  Wow.  Sad.  Pathetic.
Stop being so damn self-righteous.  You are acting in exactly the same way (making things up) as those you are trying to condemn.  

Disparaging a dead person...I'm only going on what he wrote in his own posts, his own emails and tweets that he wanted to score some of this stuff and sell it.  If that bothers you, too bad. 

It's not 100% conjecture that he was making Lean in the past, what is conjecture is whether he was this time around.  I guess I'm able to connect a few dots...let's see....used Lean in the past, on the web saying he wants to score some more, goes to a store at night in the rain to get 2 of the 3 ingredients needed to make what he had been talking about recently.  Could be a coincidence....or not.  You believe one thing, I tend to believe he didn't bother to make all the Lean comments just for giggles.  Throw in that he had marijuana in his system (you can label that as you wish...high, not high, whatever), and yes he is certainly someone that deserves the benefit of the doubt in this area.  I'm sure you are going to give it to him.  God Bless You.

[Hards Alumni]

Classic is not reading what I said.  I merely gave you what some of the experts have said are possible.  Strange that you only want to listen to "your experts".  Classic.   

Do you take yourself seriously?  You refuse to acknowledge anyone's point of view and yet you expect people to acknowledge yours?  You gripe on hypocrisy all the time, yet you are the biggest hypocrite on the board.

[ATL MU Warrior]

Disparaging a dead person...I'm only going on what he wrote in his own posts, his own emails and tweets that he wanted to score some of this stuff and sell it.  If that bothers you, too bad. 

It's not 100% conjecture that he was making Lean in the past, what is conjecture is whether he was this time around.  I guess I'm able to connect a few dots...let's see....used Lean in the past, on the web saying he wants to score some more, goes to a store at night in the rain to get 2 of the 3 ingredients needed to make what he had been talking about recently.  Could be a coincidence....or not.  You believe one thing, I tend to believe he didn't bother to make all the Lean comments just for giggles.  Throw in that he had marijuana in his system (you can label that as you wish...high, not high, whatever), and yes he is certainly someone that deserves the benefit of the doubt in this area.  I'm sure you are going to give it to him.  God Bless You.

Only the mighty Chicos is ABLE to connect a few dots.  Hysterical.

At least please refrain from judging others for connecting the dots when that is what you yourself have FINALLY admitted to doing.

[ChicosBailBonds]

No, Chico's, Detroit's woes are not the fault of a certain political philosophy. Detroit's woes are primarily the result of the decline/migration of the auto industry and massive white flight sparked by the 1967 riots, as well as a host of other complex factors.
Must you offer a  knee-jerk "blame the liberals!" to everything?
 
So your solution is to shoot thieves? Is that a serious suggestion on your part? Explain to me how that revives Detroit.
And, no, Chico's, there are no state laws that say you're allowed to shoot someone for stealing something off your patio.
And, no, Chico's, not a single person here has suggested a person doesn't have the right to defend his family's or his own life.

I'm quite aware of the auto industry impact.  I spent the first four years out of college working with GM, Ford, Caterpillar, Detroit Diesel, Cummins, etc, in the engine oil testing industry with Lubrizol, OHT, SWrI, and others.  Spent more time in Warren, Dearborn, Grand Haven, Battle Creek, Muskegon, Southfield, etc, each month than I care to remember.  Most of what you are talking about happened many years ago but the policies in play to revive have failed miserably.  Why the white flight?  Why the decline of the auto industry and what policies led to that?  Some simple mathematics going on....when you have 1000's of dollars in a vehicle more than your competitors that are allocated for benefits and wages that your competitors do not have, you are forced to do one of two things. Raise the price of your vehicles and build a quality car or keep the prices flat and skimp on the quality.  We all know what happened.  This is business 101.

I can read a book, too....many of them on this very subject.   Currently reading Detroit Autopsy.  Already read Escape from Detroit as well as the Rise and Fall of Detroit.  What gets me is the inability to even for one second take a step back and maybe say the policies didn't work, haven't worked and try something different.  But instead, when you need to milk it for all its worth to keep the votes coming in and you have your citizenry totally reliant on your services (as depleted as they are), there is no incentive to do so.  The definition of insanity is repeating the same exercise again and again. 

And Pakuni, there are laws in some states that you have the right to defend your home and property.  They vary by state.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Do you take yourself seriously?  You refuse to acknowledge anyone's point of view and yet you expect people to acknowledge yours?  You gripe on hypocrisy all the time, yet you are the biggest hypocrite on the board.

I acknowledge other points of view all the time Hards.  All the time.   I give what I get.

[Hards Alumni]

I acknowledge other points of view all the time Hards.  All the time.   I give what I get.

Shall we take a vote?  Because I'm quite sure that you're delusional.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Only the mighty Chicos is ABLE to connect a few dots.  Hysterical.

At least please refrain from judging others for connecting the dots when that is what you yourself have FINALLY admitted to doing.

Connecting the dots should rely on some factual information, not fantasy or totally misleading information (i.e. repeatedly told to stop following him).  There is a difference.  That's why they call it connecting the dots to make an educated guess.  But if its crap in from the start, you're going to get crap out for your answer. 

That's why I find you MORE MIGHTY, because you're able to connect the dots on bad information or no information at all.  It's like you are the amazing Kreskin

[ATL MU Warrior]

Connecting the dots should rely on some factual information, not fantasy or totally misleading information (i.e. repeatedly told to stop following him).  There is a difference.  That's why they call it connecting the dots to make an educated guess.  But if its crap in from the start, you're going to get crap out for your answer. 

That's why I find you MORE MIGHTY, because you're able to connect the dots on bad information or no information at all.  It's like you are the amazing Kreskin

Got it. 

Chicos point of view = factual information

Other conflicting points of view = crap

pretty much exactly the response I expected.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Shall we take a vote?  Because I'm quite sure that you're delusional.

You can do whatever you want Hards.  There are people here that if we were standing outside at high noon together and I said it was daytime they would insist I said it was night time.  There are others that I've pushed the wrong way...guilty as charged.  There are others that I get along with great.  If you want to have a poll, or a vote then please don't let me stop you.  Maybe we can get a trophy made up, or better yet a banner....or even better, a ring.

[Henry Sugar]

Florida Man arrested for kidnapping neighbor's dog. Having sex with it in his trailer.

http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/2013-07-26/story/st-johns-sex-predator-charged-having-sex-neighbors-dog

HOLY CRAP FLORIDA

Florida Man Arrested Twice In One Week For Sex With Dogs

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/topstories/article/322224/483/Man-arrested-for-animal-cruelty-again

[ATWizJr]

Pretty convenient.  Fits your narrative, and ideology nicely.

 and is accurate though it does not fit yours.

[ChicosBailBonds]

HOLY CRAP FLORIDA

Florida Man Arrested Twice In One Week For Sex With Dogs

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/topstories/article/322224/483/Man-arrested-for-animal-cruelty-again

Illinois man crushed to death by trash compactor looking for cell phone.  Genius.  http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/08/01/illinois-man-reportedly-crushed-to-death-by-trash-compactor-while-searching-for/?test=latestnews


Illinois into the final four   http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/local/illinois&id=9190357


No clowning around, especially if you are pounding the clown   http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/local/illinois&id=9182000

[Hards Alumni]

You can do whatever you want Hards.  There are people here that if we were standing outside at high noon together and I said it was daytime they would insist I said it was night time.  There are others that I've pushed the wrong way...guilty as charged.  There are others that I get along with great.  If you want to have a poll, or a vote then please don't let me stop you.  Maybe we can get a trophy made up, or better yet a banner....or even better, a ring.

Thanks for your permission.  I'm sure quite a few people feel the same about you.

[ATWizJr]

For those of you who know nothing of Michigan politics.....The Michigan constitution prohibits counties or municipalities from charging an additional sales tax, a la Cook County/Chicago.   In exchange, money from sales tax is supposed to return to the municipalities via a revenue sharing formula.   That formula got changed in the late 90's, and less and less money has been returned to the municipalities.    Detroit has suffered close to a billion dollar hit over the last 15 years, do to the diminished revenue sharing.   My city has been shorted nearly $50 million over that time.   I am not saying that there hasn't been massive corruption in Detroit.   There has been.   What I am saying is that there are more factors at work.   If the state had lived up to its obligations, Detroit would be in bad shape, but not bankrupt.   The current mayor, Dave Bing, is a good man who deserved better. 
    As far as the US auto industry, the unions have made some poor choices.   But their poor choices are peanuts compared to the idiocy, paternalism, nepotism, short-sightedness, inability to read markets, embarrassingly bad engineering, poorly chosen cost cutting decisions that have come from the top down.    Whereas I hold GZ 98% responsible for the events in Florida, I hold the auto industry's top management 85% responsible for the state it was in 6 years ago. 

  

Of course you do.  It's always someone else's fault.  Never the unions or the political leadership, unless the leadership is not the democrats.  Did the auto industry incur the 17 billion dollar debt for the city of Detroit?  Detroit has been shorted 1 billion dollars over the last 15 years?  That's $66 million annually, a drop in the bucket.  Did Detroit know it was running a shortfall?  Why didn't they act 15 years ago instead of kicking the can down the road to the point where bankruptcy was their only option?

Did the auto industry leaders make stupid choices?  At least they were playing with their own money.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Got it. 

Chicos point of view = factual information

Other conflicting points of view = crap

pretty much exactly the response I expected.

Nope, other points of view are not crap if they are grounded in facts or common sense.  When they are grounded in untruths, which were proven to the poster, they are crap.  Pretty much what I expected from you, the inability to decipher the two.  When someone says the divorce rate in this country is 50%, they are wrong and reliant on total crap.  They are lazy, and don't have their information correct.  Same idea...we all make mistakes with "the facts" here, I have admitted as much in this vary thread.  So have others, and some have even admitted as such.  Others have refused to, and worse keep perpetuating them....crap in crap out.

[ATWizJr]

Is that what Fox News told you?
Obviously unions are to blame for management decisions and the substandard work of designers and engineers. Everybody knows that.

unions are to blame for pricing the labor so high as to be no longer competitive, while insisting on more, more, more. 

[ATWizJr]

Apparently you didn't notice the part that I bolded??

I did, but I chose to respond to the entire paragraph since it all ties together.

[Hards Alumni]

Nope, other points of view are not crap if they are grounded in facts or common sense.  When they are grounded in untruths, which were proven to the poster, they are crap.  Pretty much what I expected from you, the inability to decipher the two.  When someone says the divorce rate in this country is 50%, they are wrong and reliant on total crap.  They are lazy, and don't have their information correct.  Same idea...we all make mistakes with "the facts" here, I have admitted as much in this vary thread.  So have others, and some have even admitted as such.  Others have refused to, and worse keep perpetuating them....crap in crap out.

Kinda like how you deny human caused climate change.  Despite the fact that the overwhelming majority of scientists (read: experts) who agree that humans have caused climate change.