Transfer article

[ChicosBailBonds]

So Andrew Wiggins is overcompensated for his value? You're going to have to explain that to me. In a free market - his "value" is 10's of millions of dollars - so getting $20,000-$25,000 dollars this year to play at Kansas means he is overcompensated?

How on earth is his value at KU 10's of millions of dollars when FSU basketball makes a fraction of that and would make that whether he was there or not.  If we want to look at HIS value, should we measure the incrementality of what HE brings?

[brandx]

How on earth is his value at FSU 10's of millions of dollars when FSU basketball makes a fraction of that and would make that whether he was there or not.  If we want to look at HIS value, should we measure the incrementality of what HE brings?

You didn't understand the point - his value in a free market is mega-millions. At KU, it is limited.

His value should be what the free marketplace says it should be. His value without restrictive NCAA rules - would be in the $10's of millions. Why should Kansas make millions off of him when he is restricted from making the money himself.

He does not need KU or the NCAA to be a multi-millionaire - right now!! But yes the rules say he cannot make what he is worth.

Free market indeed!!

[brandx]

If a tennis player or golfer at 17 or 18 is valued at $10 mil in a free market - they have the freedom to earn that money.

If a basketball player at 17 or 18 years of age is valued at $10 mil - he does not have the freedom.

Any ideas on what the difference might be??

[ChicosBailBonds]

If a tennis player or golfer at 17 or 18 is valued at $10 mil in a free market - they have the freedom to earn that money.

If a basketball player at 17 or 18 years of age is valued at $10 mil - he does not have the freedom.

Any ideas on what the difference might be??

The tennis and golfers scored 1200 or better on their SATs?   I kid, I kid.

By the way, the tennis and golfers play an individual sport, where they drive their own ticket.  Personally, I love the golfing & tennis rewards concept.  You make money in golf by actually performing.  No contracts...you perform if you want to get paid.  You slump in hoops, baseball, etc, you still get paid.  You slump in golf, back to Q school.  Wish all sports was that way.  All we have to do is go to the link I provided earlier today of the top recruiting classes by years and see those that made it and those that completely bombed....yet with your argument you are going to say all those top recruits are worth tons of money based on what they did in high school.  No thanks.

[ChicosBailBonds]

You didn't understand the point - his value in a free market is mega-millions. At KU, it is limited.

His value should be what the free marketplace says it should be. His value without restrictive NCAA rules - would be in the $10's of millions. Why should Kansas make millions off of him when he is restricted from making the money himself.

He does not need KU or the NCAA to be a multi-millionaire - right now!! But yes the rules say he cannot make what he is worth.

Free market indeed!!

It's not a free market at his age, nor should it be.  We have age restrictions all over the place in this country.  Age for consent, age to get married, age to be employed, age to buy liquor, vote, join the military...and even be eligible for certain professional sports leagues.

What if the guy down the street for me was just an awesome sniper, could hit an eye out of a bird at 1500 yards without a sweat but he was 15...should the Army be allowed to take him?  He's worth something to the Army, he's got skilllllzzzzz. 

Sometimes, society (for all its benefits and ills) decides that it is appropriate for people to have a few additional years for maturity, be it of mind or body (or both).

As far as Wilson goes, he may not need KU to become a millionaire, then again he might end up being a total bust at KU which helps NBA teams find out just how good these guys are.  The leagues, if they were allowed to take high school kids, would demand some kind of salary cap ceiling pool for these draftees to protect them because for every Kobe or Lebron out there, we have a crapload of absolute busts that went for it all and flamed out hard. 

[keefe]

What if the guy down the street for me was just an awesome sniper, could hit an eye out of a bird at 1500 yards without a sweat but he was 15...should the Army be allowed to take him?  He's worth something to the Army, he's got skilllllzzzzz. 

Every JTAC team has a sniper. These guys are trained on the M82 which fires a .50 cal round. The ranges are so extreme that the targeting solution  factors in range, heading, velocity, angle, azimuth, windage, ambient temperature, barometric pressure, and a calculation for the movement of the earth during the round's flight! Goddam but I love American ingenuity.

[Lennys Tap]

The tennis and golfers can scored 1200 or better on their SATs?    I kid, I kid.

By the way, the tennis and golfers play an individual sport, where they drive their own ticket.  Personally, I love the golfing & tennis rewards concept.  You make money in golf by actually performing.  No contracts...you perform if you want to get paid.  You slump in hoops, baseball, etc, you still get paid.  You slump in golf, back to Q school.  Wish all sports was that way.  All we have to do is go to the link I provided earlier today of the top recruiting classes by years and see those that made it and those that completely bombed....yet with your argument you are going to say all those top recruits are worth tons of money based on what they did in high school.  No thanks.

First, I think the remark about the reading/ SAT scores is out of line on several levels.

Second, having the right to earn a living in the entertainment industry shouldn't be based on whether you're a solo act.

Third, plenty of golfers make a great deal of money on appearance fees, exhibitions, etc.

[Lennys Tap]

It's not a free market at his age, nor should it be.  We have age restrictions all over the place in this country.  Age for consent, age to get married, age to be employed, age to buy liquor, vote, join the military...and even be eligible for certain professional sports leagues.

What if the guy down the street for me was just an awesome sniper, could hit an eye out of a bird at 1500 yards without a sweat but he was 15...should the Army be allowed to take him?  He's worth something to the Army, he's got skilllllzzzzz. 

Sometimes, society (for all its benefits and ills) decides that it is appropriate for people to have a few additional years for maturity, be it of mind or body (or both).

As far as Wilson goes, he may not need KU to become a millionaire, then again he might end up being a total bust at KU which helps NBA teams find out just how good these guys are.  The leagues, if they were allowed to take high school kids, would demand some kind of salary cap ceiling pool for these draftees to protect them because for every Kobe or Lebron out there, we have a crapload of absolute busts that went for it all and flamed out hard. 

This has nothing to do with society deciding anything. It's a business decision by the NBA to ensure the NCAA continues as their minor league and the freedom of the young men to make a living be damned. I can see why they're so arbitrary and anti free market - a rigged wheel is better for them. But why you?

[Jay Bee]

You didn't understand the point - his value in a free market is mega-millions. At KU, it is limited.

His value should be what the free marketplace says it should be. His value without restrictive NCAA rules - would be in the $10's of millions. Why should Kansas make millions off of him when he is restricted from making the money himself.

He does not need KU or the NCAA to be a multi-millionaire - right now!! But yes the rules say he cannot make what he is worth.

Free market indeed!!

Wiggins can make money playing basketball if he so wishes. What are the "restrictive NCAA rules" that keep him from making "the money himself", which you claim to be in the $10's of millions. (Is that over time... or one year.. if over time, why are you using this if you're also assuming he'll only be at KU for one year?)

[ChicosBailBonds]

First, I think the remark about the reading/ SAT scores is out of line on several levels.

Second, having the right to earn a living in the entertainment industry shouldn't be based on whether you're a solo act.

Third, plenty of golfers make a great deal of money on appearance fees, exhibitions, etc.

First, teal

Second, maybe it shouldn't, but that's the way it is setup right now.  Let's also not forget that the level or injuries on the golf course are a bit different than the gridiron or hardcourts.  Part of the reason for age limits, certainly in the NFL, is to make sure to help protect against injury due to lack of physical maturity.

Third, yes...they do make money elsewhere, but they usually make the endorsements because of their success on the tour.  There will always be exceptions where someone is signed to an endorsement because of potential or buzz.  The prize money, the actual money earned for playing is determined on how well they do each and every week.  I'd love to see that in sports.  It exists to some extent in football, but with the guaranteed signing bonuses even then teams get tagged. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

This has nothing to do with society deciding anything. It's a business decision by the NBA to ensure the NCAA continues as their minor league and the freedom of the young men to make a living be damned. I can see why they're so arbitrary and anti free market - a rigged wheel is better for them. But why you?

To some degree, you are correct, but you are not 100% correct.  Part of it was to stem the tide of emotionally immature prima donnas being handed millions of dollars and flaming out.  In the NFL's case, the age limit was put in due to physical maturity and injury prevention.  No one is arguing that the leagues want the NCAA as the minor leagues, but it's not that cut and dried either.  A kid can go to the NBDL if he wishes.  Minimum age is 18.  These kids have options and no one is going to argue the NBDL isn't a minor league to the NBA...of course it is.    The issue there is opportunity because there are only so many teams while there are 350 DI college teams.  They can also play in Europe if they wish.  Or they can have their education fully paid for and play in college.  God forbid these kids have three different opportunities before having wait a WHOLE YEAR before going to the NBA.

Let's also not put this all on the leagues, either.  The NBA tried to institute a 2 year rule and guess who wouldn't go for that.  The players union...surprise surprise.  Hell the players union would be willing to let a 6th grader go to the pros if they thought it would butter their bread....as you stated.  The NCAA has tried to address this, but the NBA has said no.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/8097411/roots-nba-draft-one-done-rule-run-deep-men-college-basketball


Why is the "rigged wheel" better for me?  It's not, personally.  From an industry perspective, I think it betters college basketball AND the NBA by forcing kids to go to college ...the longer the better.  The article below captures it well for me.  It allows some kids that clearly aren't capable of much of anything other than putting a ball through a hole to actually earn some skills, socially and emotionally and maybe even intellectually.  It allows the "development' to happen where development should be happening....college.  Just as students develop skills for the career world, so should student athletes.  On the job training in the pros usually doesn't work out well.  For every Kobe and Garnett there are Leon Smiths, Korleone Young, Taj McDavid, etc, etc.


http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2013/jun/27/one-year-wonder/

[Lennys Tap]

Second, maybe it shouldn't, but that's the way it is setup right now.  Let's also not forget that the level or injuries on the golf course are a bit different than the gridiron or hardcourts.  Part of the reason for age limits, certainly in the NFL, is to make sure to help protect against injury due to lack of physical maturity.

Please. The NFL's record on safety issues is abysmal. The only thing they're interested in protecting is their investment.

[keefe]

Hell the players union would be willing to let a 6th grader go to the pros if they thought it would butter their bread. 

Tanned Tommy usually doles out offers to every 6th grader out there so I would not be against the NBA allowing these kids to sign PSA contracts. Nothing like healthy competition!

[Lennys Tap]

To some degree, you are correct, but you are not 100% correct.  Part of it was to stem the tide of emotionally immature prima donnas being handed millions of dollars and flaming out.  In the NFL's case, the age limit was put in due to physical maturity and injury prevention.  No one is arguing that the leagues want the NCAA as the minor leagues, but it's not that cut and dried either.  A kid can go to the NBDL if he wishes.  Minimum age is 18.  These kids have options and no one is going to argue the NBDL isn't a minor league to the NBA...of course it is.    The issue there is opportunity because there are only so many teams while there are 350 DI college teams.  They can also play in Europe if they wish.  Or they can have their education fully paid for and play in college.  God forbid these kids have three different opportunities before having wait a WHOLE YEAR before going to the NBA.

Let's also not put this all on the leagues, either.  The NBA tried to institute a 2 year rule and guess who wouldn't go for that.  The players union...surprise surprise.  Hell the players union would be willing to let a 6th grader go to the pros if they thought it would butter their bread....as you stated.  The NCAA has tried to address this, but the NBA has said no.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/8097411/roots-nba-draft-one-done-rule-run-deep-men-college-basketball


Why is the "rigged wheel" better for me?  It's not, personally.  From an industry perspective, I think it betters college basketball AND the NBA by forcing kids to go to college ...the longer the better.  The article below captures it well for me.  It allows some kids that clearly aren't capable of much of anything other than putting a ball through a hole to actually earn some skills, socially and emotionally and maybe even intellectually.  It allows the "development' to happen where development should be happening....college.  Just as students develop skills for the career world, so should student athletes.  On the job training in the pros usually doesn't work out well.  For every Kobe and Garnett there are Leon Smiths, Korleone Young, Taj McDavid, etc, etc.


http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2013/jun/27/one-year-wonder/

I suppose in your world Justin Bieber would have options too. He could sing in the church choir, go to Northwestern on a performing arts scholarship or move to Paris. Unfair and arbitrary, but he would have options.

[boyonthedock]

Can we at least let college players sign endorsement deals?

[keefe]

Can we at least let college players sign endorsement deals?

Pandora's Box...

[brandx]

Wiggins can make money playing basketball if he so wishes. What are the "restrictive NCAA rules" that keep him from making "the money himself", which you claim to be in the $10's of millions. (Is that over time... or one year.. if over time, why are you using this if you're also assuming he'll only be at KU for one year?)

Wrong - Wiggins is unable to earn whatever the #1 pick in the draft earns (which he would have been this year) - hence the $10's of millions. To make even a decent fraction of that, he would have to go to another continent.

[Jay Bee]

Wrong - Wiggins is unable to earn whatever the #1 pick in the draft earns (which he would have been this year) - hence the $10's of millions. To make even a decent fraction of that, he would have to go to another continent.

You're lacking logic. I say, "Wiggins can make money playing basketball if he so wishes" and you say I'm wrong... then YOU go on to say he can make money. I think at #1 last week you're to be paid up to $5.3MM this coming season. That's one reason why I'm struggling with the $10's of millions claim. Can't he be the #1 draft pick next season? Or the following one?

Many professional basketball players make a living playing for non-NBA teams. Wiggins could as well.

But, back to my question that you didn't answer. "What are the "restrictive NCAA rules" that keep him from making "the money himself", which you claim to be in the $10's of millions?"... your logic doesn't follow and you're mixing up arguments that can't be combined.

Besides, the NCAA doesn't say Wiggins can't play in the NBA this fall.

[brandx]

To some degree, you are correct, but you are not 100% correct.  Part of it was to stem the tide of emotionally immature prima donnas being handed millions of dollars and flaming out.  In the NFL's case, the age limit was put in due to physical maturity and injury prevention.  No one is arguing that the leagues want the NCAA as the minor leagues, but it's not that cut and dried either.  A kid can go to the NBDL if he wishes.  Minimum age is 18.  These kids have options and no one is going to argue the NBDL isn't a minor league to the NBA...of course it is.    The issue there is opportunity because there are only so many teams while there are 350 DI college teams.  They can also play in Europe if they wish.  Or they can have their education fully paid for and play in college.  God forbid these kids have three different opportunities before having wait a WHOLE YEAR before going to the NBA.

Let's also not put this all on the leagues, either.  The NBA tried to institute a 2 year rule and guess who wouldn't go for that.  The players union...surprise surprise.  Hell the players union would be willing to let a 6th grader go to the pros if they thought it would butter their bread....as you stated.  The NCAA has tried to address this, but the NBA has said no.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/8097411/roots-nba-draft-one-done-rule-run-deep-men-college-basketball


Why is the "rigged wheel" better for me?  It's not, personally.  From an industry perspective, I think it betters college basketball AND the NBA by forcing kids to go to college ...the longer the better.  The article below captures it well for me.  It allows some kids that clearly aren't capable of much of anything other than putting a ball through a hole to actually earn some skills, socially and emotionally and maybe even intellectually.  It allows the "development' to happen where development should be happening....college.  Just as students develop skills for the career world, so should student athletes.  On the job training in the pros usually doesn't work out well.  For every Kobe and Garnett there are Leon Smiths, Korleone Young, Taj McDavid, etc, etc.


http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2013/jun/27/one-year-wonder/

All good points Chicos.

But there are doctors, lawyers and all manner of business bigwigs who wash out because they are not ready on one level or another.

Maybe MLB has the best idea - anyone can be drafted out of high school - but if they attend a 4-year college, they are not eligible to be drafted until after their junior year. I think if this happened, the NBA would be forced to set up a legitimate minor league system, and if GMs are doing their jobs, only the elite guys coming directly from high school would get big $$. I certainly agree that most are/were not ready and need more development.

Seems like a win-win. Young players would have more options and colleges can boast that they are truly dealing with student-athletes.

[brandx]

You're lacking logic. I say, "Wiggins can make money playing basketball if he so wishes" and you say I'm wrong... then YOU go on to say he can make money. I think at #1 last week you're to be paid up to $5.3MM this coming season. That's one reason why I'm struggling with the $10's of millions claim. Can't he be the #1 draft pick next season? Or the following one?

Many professional basketball players make a living playing for non-NBA teams. Wiggins could as well.

But, back to my question that you didn't answer. "What are the "restrictive NCAA rules" that keep him from making "the money himself", which you claim to be in the $10's of millions?"... your logic doesn't follow and you're mixing up arguments that can't be combined.



Besides, the NCAA doesn't say Wiggins can't play in the NBA this fall.

He can also get hurt this year and never make any NBA number strictly because of an arbitrary rule. And, there is a huge, huge difference between money and MONEY.

Your last point is correct - it is the NBA that restricts the right of an 18 year old to earn a living doing doing something he is fully qualified to do.

[Jay Bee]

He can also get hurt this year and never make any NBA number strictly because of an arbitrary rule. And, there is a huge, huge difference between money and MONEY.

Your last point is correct - it is the NBA that restricts the right of an 18 year old to earn a living doing doing something he is fully qualified to do.

OK, well let's blame career-ending injuries on the NCAA.

An 18 year old can play and make money in the NBA.

[keefe]

OK, well let's blame career-ending injuries on the NCAA.

Insurance

[ChicosBailBonds]

All good points Chicos.

But there are doctors, lawyers and all manner of business bigwigs who wash out because they are not ready on one level or another.

Maybe MLB has the best idea - anyone can be drafted out of high school - but if they attend a 4-year college, they are not eligible to be drafted until after their junior year. I think if this happened, the NBA would be forced to set up a legitimate minor league system, and if GMs are doing their jobs, only the elite guys coming directly from high school would get big $$. I certainly agree that most are/were not ready and need more development.

Seems like a win-win. Young players would have more options and colleges can boast that they are truly dealing with student-athletes.

I would have no problem with the MLB rule.  I don't think for a New York second the players union would allow for it, but I would have no trouble with it.

[forgetful]

He can also get hurt this year and never make any NBA number strictly because of an arbitrary rule. And, there is a huge, huge difference between money and MONEY.

Your last point is correct - it is the NBA that restricts the right of an 18 year old to earn a living doing doing something he is fully qualified to do.

The NBA put this rule in for a reason.  It is too much risk to draft them straight out of high school.  Also, why are we stopping at high school graduates.  We are just restricting those 13-18 year olds from pursuing a professional career.  Who are we to say that you have to graduate from high school before being eligible for the draft.  We are hurting their earning potentials. 

Your idea of a minor league is ridiculous and would be way worse for athletes than what is in place.  Most of these players never make it to the NBA.  Getting a college education gives them opportunties and recognition that they would not have had a chance at otherwise.  A minor league would be like the D-league...have you looked at their salaries lately.  They are way better off a year in college.

You mention that Europe is not really an option and that only 1 player went that route.  Why do you think that is?  1) The money isn't there, because outside of the NBA, no one is making any money.  2) Too much risk, you have to go and play against top talent in an organized league.  The skill sets coming out of high school don't transfer and you run the risk of not standing out and not getting drafted. 

The NCAA has managed (through University ties) to create a market for young athletes where they can showcase and develop their skills to hopefully make a living (either through a degree or basketball).  Take away the NCAA and most of these kids never get drafted, never get a degree and have no league where they can make money.  Minor league is never going to bring in sufficient funds to pay a reasonable salary.

A guy like Wiggins is unusual.  But there is a high probability that he still never amounts to anything.  Why should the NBA pay him millions when he hasn't proven anything yet?  They shouldn't, and don't want to, so he has options.  NCAA, or overseas.  If there was an economic demand for these kids another league would have been started.

Fact of the matter is there is no demand, so all arguments are useless.  The athletes have a great thing and a great opportunity.  Most would kill to be in their shoes.

[forgetful]

Another comment.  Even as things currently stand a lot of these kids are barely good enough to play in the NBA and the teams are forced to draft them anyway.  Teams like Dallas were trying to give away draft picks so they didn't have to draft someone and pay them a salary even though they weren't good enough.