MUScoop fans suck!

[keefe]

Almost 6 years and I still don't understand why people on this board attack kids (17-21 year olds) who work their asses off to do the best they can for MU.  Juan is going to have a good year and we should all be happy for him and the rest of our team.

There is nothing to understand. My last tour in Iraq I corresponded with Todd Rosiak of the Journal who was then covering Marquette basketball. He had impressions of both Dodds' board and the folks here. He characterized the tone and tenor of this board as much more virulent and intolerant. He shared with me his disgust with the venom of the attacks he found here at times. Of note, he told me he had first hand knowledge that recruits, their friends and families do read these boards and stressed that the lunacy here cost us at least one coveted signing.

Rosiak summarized that every fan site such as this is populated by rabid individuals who are not representative of a team's total population. He figured that both Scout and Scoop have fewer than 200 actively contributing members with a core of less than 50 dictating the direction and temperament of the conversation. (And woe upon he who dares not conform as dictated by those self-anointed few.)

I genuinely wish Juan all the best as he writes the next chapter in his story. From an educational and family stand point I hope he chooses to matriculate at Cal but only he knows what is best for Juan Anderson. He has been a tremendous asset on the team and as a member of the Marquette community. I only wish him the very best as he continues his journey.

[mu_hilltopper]

But, but.  Ok, maybe Scoop scared off a recruit. 

But think of all the good advice we've given players and coaches! 

Scoop is up to its eyeballs in guys who know basketball way better than the coaches do.   

[Dr. Blackheart]

There is 3200 lunatics online right now at CatsIllustrated.  Any recruit's mom who was offended at anything said on Scoop couldn't last a TV time out at the BC.  Wade wasn't even a rated recruit, Butler was a wasted scholie, Vander is overrated...some great words of wisdom stated here.  Go to Kentucky or IU and they are pissed with a four star.  

Goood luck to Juan wherever he lands or doesn't.  Great kid!

[AZWarrior]

But, but.  Ok, maybe Scoop scared off a recruit. 

But think of all the good advice we've given players and coaches! 

Scoop is up to its eyeballs in guys who know basketball way better than the coaches do.   

Teal.  You have to use the teal!  Otherwise you will be taken seriously. 

And given your position on this board, I think you must be aware of that.  Therefore, I must label you as a hand-grenade throwing instigator.

[keefe]

But, but.  Ok, maybe Scoop scared off a recruit. 

But think of all the good advice we've given players and coaches! 

Scoop is up to its eyeballs in guys who know basketball way better than the coaches do.   

Nothing wrong with guys arguing sports. Hell, apart from women, sports is the second most common conversation in every bar in America. I think there's a lot of fun in debating such burning issues as who was the greatest right handed hitter (Molitor, of course) or the best southpaw among Spahn, Koufax, Carlton, or Big Unit?  

The point being there are no correct answers; the joy is in the well reasoned debate. What characterizes too much of the discourse here is intolerance, arrogance, and hubris. Unlike spirited bar room banter there are many here who see conversation as a zero sum game. Not only is this absurd for no one here has any real expertise but it illogically demeans the very purpose of discussion.

As Rosiak pointed out, some of the comments here (and Scout, to a lesser degree) are pointed, deleterious, and pernicious and have hurt the Marquette program. In the case he related to me it was the mother of a highly regarded national recruit who was offended by statements and judgments read here. He opted to attend another school when he was all but set to declare for Marquette.

What is more amazing are the attacks against players who are on the team. Honest evaluation is one thing but to completely trash a player's game and character goes well beyond the pale of acceptable social discourse.

In the case of Vander Blue, there is a strong sentiment wishing for his professional failure. The underlying current is one of aggrieved indignation.  The man made a choice for his life and the only appropriate response is to wish him well. He gave us some of the most thrilling moments any of us have of Marquette basketball; how that articulates as vengeful scorn is inexplicable.  

[keefe]

There is 3200 lunatics online right now at CatsIllustrated.  Any recruit's mom who was offended at anything said on Scoop couldn't last a TV time out at the BC.  Wade wasn't even a rated recruit, Butler was a wasted scholie, Vander is overrated...some great words of wisdom stated here.  Go to Kentucky or IU and they are pissed with a four star.  

Go luck to Juan wherever he lands or doesn't.  Great kid!

Doc,

They do a lot of things at Kentucky that I would not endorse...My favorite was the Emery envelope stuffed with cash being sent to recruit Chris Mills.

[Pakuni]

I have it on good authority that MU lost an elite big man because he had an intense hatred for haiku.

Seriously, the guy posting "Sambo" caricatures on this board probably shouldn't be giving lectures about what here might be deemed offensive to recruits and their families.

[Spaniel with a Short Tail]

In the case of Vander Blue, there is a strong sentiment wishing for his professional failure. The underlying current is one of aggrieved indignation.  The man made a choice for his life and the only appropriate response is to wish him well. He gave us some of the most thrilling moments any of us have of Marquette basketball; how that articulates as vengeful scorn is inexplicable.  

I don't see that.  A lot of head scratching, and plenty of regrets (maybe some a little over the top) for what could have been a national contender next year, but no one wishes him to fail. I think everyone realizes that once he made the decision it is in the best interest of Marquette basketball for him to succeed.

[MUfan12]

Of note, he told me he had first hand knowledge that recruits, their friends and families do read these boards and stressed that the lunacy here cost us at least one coveted signing.

I think I know who you are speaking of, and MU dodged a bullet. Never panned out.

[keefe]

I have it on good authority that MU lost an elite big man because he had an intense hatred for haiku.

Seriously, the guy posting "Sambo" caricatures on this board probably shouldn't be giving lectures about what here might be deemed offensive to recruits and their families.

Clearly you either did not read my case or simply did not understand it. Those images bespoke the narrative. And, by the way, those images were an integral part of a case study taught at Harvard Business School on the Sambo's Branding controversy. I urge you to understand the difference between the evincive and the affirming.

Your comment is specious, uninformed, and amiss.

[keefe]

I think I know who you are speaking of, and MU dodged a bullet. Never panned out.

Hindsight is always 20/20 but at the time it was tragic. Thank God his mother was offended.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Hindsight is always 20/20 but at the time it was tragic. Thank God his mother was offended.

MU fans will get to see for themselves this winter....maybe mom will be there to see and hear for herself in person to reaffirm her offense.  Gotta love ninth place ribbons.

[PJDunn]

I am offended that someone would offer up Paul Molitor as the greatest right hand hitter of all time.  Especially someone who has spent time in the Pacific Northwest. The correct answer to that question is obviously Edgar Martinez.

On a bball note, going negative on 17 to 22 year old kids is idiotic and it takes place all too often on both this forum as well as Doddsland.

[keefe]

I am offended that someone would offer up Paul Molitor as the greatest right hand hitter of all time.  Especially someone who has spent time in the Pacific Northwest. The correct answer to that question is obviously Edgar Martinez.

On a bball note, going negative on 17 to 22 year old kids is idiotic and it takes place all too often on both this forum as well as Doddsland.

Of course Edgar is on the list. But he didn't deliver power and he never played the field. I will say he gets in the Hall as the first DH. His career average, doubles, OBP, and OPS are compelling statements. But he has never gotten more than 38% of the ballots so it may be a tough sell. There will ultimately be a Mariner but Ichiro, Junior, and Big Unit are more likely than Edgar. Hell, even Moyer has a better shot.

Beyond the obvious Hank, Willie, Mickey and Joe D., other greats include Guerrero, Pujols, Kaline, Yount, Rose, Clemente, and the Big Hurt. It is amazing how lefties dominate the hitting lists. But I like Molitor because he made things happen. He and Ichiro are the best lead offs I have seen. (And Ichiro played an incredible RF. Only Dwight Evans had a comparable arm.)

[ChicosBailBonds]

Nothing wrong with guys arguing sports. Hell, apart from women, sports is the second most common conversation in every bar in America. I think there's a lot of fun in debating such burning issues as who was the greatest right handed hitter (Molitor, of course) or the best southpaw among Spahn, Koufax, Carlton, or Big Unit?  

The point being there are no correct answers; the joy is in the well reasoned debate. What characterizes too much of the discourse here is intolerance, arrogance, and hubris. Unlike spirited bar room banter there are many here who see conversation as a zero sum game. Not only is this absurd for no one here has any real expertise but it illogically demeans the very purpose of discussion.

As Rosiak pointed out, some of the comments here (and Scout, to a lesser degree) are pointed, deleterious, and pernicious and have hurt the Marquette program. In the case he related to me it was the mother of a highly regarded national recruit who was offended by statements and judgments read here. He opted to attend another school when he was all but set to declare for Marquette.

What is more amazing are the attacks against players who are on the team. Honest evaluation is one thing but to completely trash a player's game and character goes well beyond the pale of acceptable social discourse.

In the case of Vander Blue, there is a strong sentiment wishing for his professional failure. The underlying current is one of aggrieved indignation.  The man made a choice for his life and the only appropriate response is to wish him well. He gave us some of the most thrilling moments any of us have of Marquette basketball; how that articulates as vengeful scorn is inexplicable.  

Sorry, but I can't let this go untouched.

There is strong sentiment wishing for his professional failure?  Show me one post that anyone has made WISHING for his failure.

Secondly, if a kid is choosing not to go to MU because of what someone said on a message board, I don't want him at MU.  What is that kid going to do when he goes on the road in a hostile environment...put ear plugs in?  What's he going to do when talk radio questions his abilities or a newspaper article is less than glowing?    Does said kid and mommy not think other schools have message boards?

I generally agree we should be very careful of criticizing players, they are kids after all, though there are times their actions deserve critique.  I'm sure I am guilty of getting on some kids more than I should.  All that being said, this is major DI basketball and sometimes things are said that should be said, but they are said anyway.  Thicker skin is going to be required to do well in this world, and that is no less true at the major DI basketball level.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Of course Edgar is on the list. But he didn't deliver power and he never played the field. I will say he gets in the Hall as the first DH. His career average, doubles, OBP, and OPS are compelling statements. But he has never gotten more than 38% of the ballots so it may be a tough sell. There will ultimately be a Mariner but Ichiro, Junior, and Big Unit are more likely than Edgar. Hell, even Moyer has a better shot.

Beyond the obvious Hank, Willie, Mickey and Joe D., other greats include Guerrero, Pujols, Kaline, Yount, Rose, Clemente, and the Big Hurt. It is amazing how lefties dominate the hitting lists. But I like Molitor because he made things happen. He and Ichiro are the best lead offs I have seen. (And Ichiro played an incredible RF. Only Dwight Evans had a comparable arm.)

Ricky Henderson is the best leadoff I ever saw and I don't think it's really that close.  Some guy named Derek Jeter was pretty damn good leadoff as well. 

[keefe]

Sorry, but I can't let this go untouched.

There is strong sentiment wishing for his professional failure?  Show me one post that anyone has made WISHING for his failure.

Secondly, if a kid is choosing not to go to MU because of what someone said on a message board, I don't want him at MU.  What is that kid going to do when he goes on the road in a hostile environment...put ear plugs in?  What's he going to do when talk radio questions his abilities or a newspaper article is less than glowing?    Does said kid and mommy not think other schools have message boards?

I generally agree we should be very careful of criticizing players, they are kids after all, though there are times their actions deserve critique.  I'm sure I am guilty of getting on some kids more than I should.  All that being said, this is major DI basketball and sometimes things are said that should be said, but they are said anyway.  Thicker skin is going to be required to do well in this world, and that is no less true at the major DI basketball level.

Chico, please do not confuse informed criticism from the media with the uninformed opinions found on the internet. I would dare say there is little actual expertise here in matters basketball. Furthermore, I am not speaking strictly of basketball competency but the casual forays into character, intelligence, motivation, etc... Such banal bromides are essentially rubbish but hurtful in so many ways.   

[keefe]

Ricky Henderson is the best leadoff I ever saw and I don't think it's really that close.  Some guy named Derek Jeter was pretty damn good leadoff as well. 

No question Henderson played at an extremely high level for 23 years. I was at the game at County Stadium when he broke Lou Brock's record. My issue with RH are the swirling suggestions of PED use. I am of the opinion that anyone who used PEDs has tainted accomplishment and should not be eligible for the Hall. Pete Rose belongs well before Clemens, McGwire, Palmeiro, Bonds, et al. What's a damn shame is that Clemens in his prime was a machine. Too bad he made a bad choice later in his career.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but that is the nature of sports fandom.  Heck, go back to the 1930's and 1940's, and the BUMS were out there playing ball.  The language has gotten saltier, but since games were first played fans will get on their team and cheer their team...both flavors.  It's because they care.  They are passionate and it hurts when they lose, feels great when they win, emotions everywhere.

I just don't know any MU fan that is cheering for Vander to fail.  There are many that wish he would have stayed for any number of reasons (develop better, good team coming back, etc), there are certainly some that don't think he will succeed or be drafted (that doesn't mean they want this to happen).

[Dawson Rental]

Hindsight is always 20/20 but at the time it was tragic. Thank God his mother was offended.

Its far better to offend the mothers during recruiting season than at the end of the first year as they are now discovering at Wisconsin-Green Bay.

[keefe]

Its far better to offend the mothers during recruiting season than at the end of the first year as they are now discovering at Wisconsin-Green Bay.

I wonder how Majerus would fare in today's environment? I trust he would have been a keen enough judge of character to not let a player/mother duo into his program such as happened to Wardle. But one never knows and he likely would have found himself in hot water. Frankly, college basketball would be a much lesser place without his contributions.

[MUHoopsFan2]

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but that is the nature of sports fandom.  Heck, go back to the 1930's and 1940's, and the BUMS were out there playing ball.  The language has gotten saltier, but since games were first played fans will get on their team and cheer their team...both flavors.  It's because they care.  They are passionate and it hurts when they lose, feels great when they win, emotions everywhere.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but that is the nature of sports fandom.  Heck, go back to the 1930's and 1940's, and the BUMS were out there playing ball.  The language has gotten saltier, but since games were first played fans will get on their team and cheer their team...both flavors.  It's because they care.  They are passionate and it hurts when they lose, feels great when they win, emotions everywhere.

I just don't know any MU fan that is cheering for Vander to fail.  There are many that wish he would have stayed for any number of reasons (develop better, good team coming back, etc), there are certainly some that don't think he will succeed or be drafted (that doesn't mean they want this to happen).

I just don't know any MU fan that is cheering for Vander to fail.  There are many that wish he would have stayed for any number of reasons (develop better, good team coming back, etc), there are certainly some that don't think he will succeed or be drafted (that doesn't mean they want this to happen).

That is being naive or dishonest or both because THERE ARE those who want him to fail and not get drafted and will be the first ones if it happens to say that "I told you so!"
You can bet your bottom dollar on it. So please don't say that. And don''t say tha it is not true because it is and he knows and he knows some are thinking and hoping it, ad Vander probaly with his Type A personality ( And no A does not stand for Arrogance as many believe..) he relishes itad thrives on that kind of motivation.
I for one am just elated that another young man I was fortunate to be in some service to is moving on to persuehis dream like many other students today not aiming for the NBA on graduation night

[Sunbelt15]

Sorry, but I can't let this go untouched.

There is strong sentiment wishing for his professional failure?  Show me one post that anyone has made WISHING for his failure.

Secondly, if a kid is choosing not to go to MU because of what someone said on a message board, I don't want him at MU.  What is that kid going to do when he goes on the road in a hostile environment...put ear plugs in?  What's he going to do when talk radio questions his abilities or a newspaper article is less than glowing?    Does said kid and mommy not think other schools have message boards?

I generally agree we should be very careful of criticizing players, they are kids after all, though there are times their actions deserve critique.  I'm sure I am guilty of getting on some kids more than I should.  All that being said, this is major DI basketball and sometimes things are said that should be said, but they are said anyway.  Thicker skin is going to be required to do well in this world, and that is no less true at the major DI basketball level.

I'm assuming Failure equates to thinking Vander will Not get drafted....?  If so, he might have an argument.

[real chili 83]

If a kids mom chose a school based on a message board...wow. 

With that said, these are just kids.  Period

Anyone remember the nice post Dawson's dad had after his son signed?

[wildbill sb]

Anyone remember the nice post Dawson's dad had after his son signed?

Actually, no.  How can I find it?  Thanks.

[tower912]

Dawson's dad, Newbill' coach/mentor.....yup, player's families and entourages read this board.   And it is embarrassing at time.   Yup, lots of message boards knuckleheads.    This board has always had an opportunity to show that a MU education means you can make rational arguments without engaging in personal attacks, that you can speak critically and intelligently about basketball without slagging kids.   IMO, it does not succeed in that as often as it should.   

[bilsu]

If a kids mom chose a school based on a message board...wow. 

With that said, these are just kids.  Period

Anyone remember the nice post Dawson's dad had after his son signed?

What people do not seem to understand is a recruit often gets down to two or three schools he really likes and it is hard to make the decision. Anything negative helps the recruit make a decision to go elsewhere. I have repeatedly posted on this board how some posters here continually recruit against Buzz. As soon as a potential recruits name is posted someone posts why we do not want the player. Buzz flies all over the country scouting players and spends numerous hours contacting them on phone or by texting. It must be very frustrating to have this board work against him. I just do not understand how we are all suppose to be such die hard fans of MU and have so much negativity on our board. To me it is even more frustrating, because this board at times shows no Christian values.

[Benny B]

Dawson's dad, Newbill' coach/mentor.....yup, player's families and entourages read this board.   And it is embarrassing at time.   Yup, lots of message boards knuckleheads.    This board has always had an opportunity to show that a MU education means you can make rational arguments without engaging in personal attacks, that you can speak critically and intelligently about basketball without slagging kids.   IMO, it does not succeed in that as often as it should.   

Agreed... however, an important detail we should note here is that, of those who did, no one broke bad on Newbill until after it was announced that the NLI was voided.  So let's be careful not to jump to blaming Scoop for chasing him off.

[Goose]

As for possible recruits, there is no way I could possibly have an opinion that would trump Buzz's interest in a kid. That said, I do think once a kid is here and part of the program criticism can be posted. Now if we Dukiet in charge of recruiting I would likely be very critical of who he is recruiting.

[Pakuni]

Clearly you either did not read my case or simply did not understand it. Those images bespoke the narrative. And, by the way, those images were an integral part of a case study taught at Harvard Business School on the Sambo's Branding controversy. I urge you to understand the difference between the evincive and the affirming.

Your comment is specious, uninformed, and amiss.

No, keefe, I clearly understood the point you were trying to make (though I needed a dixnary to understand some of yer fancy talkin' and Hahvahd words). Posting something that might be viewed as offensive by a recruits' parents - and what you posted absolutely qualifies - is no less offensive because you think it's "evincive."

Your scolding of other posters is hypocritical, misplaced and perhaps a classic case of Freudian projection.

[esotericmindguy]

I think I know who you are speaking of, and MU dodged a bullet. Never panned out.

Dodged a bullet? If a recruit is questioning coming here over a few posts on a chat board then why the h*ll would you even sign him?? I could tell you right then and there he would be a waste. My goodness, go to Murray St. if you want duckies and bunnies. This is a top 15-20 program, pressure and a few intense fans comes with the territory.

[mileskishnish72]

Mickey went both ways.

[setyoursightsnorth]

Nothing wrong with guys arguing sports. Hell, apart from women, sports is the second most common conversation in every bar in America. I think there's a lot of fun in debating such burning issues as who was the greatest right handed hitter (Molitor, of course) or the best southpaw among Spahn, Koufax, Carlton, or Big Unit?  

I think there should be law stating that one has to be inebriated to contribute to MuScoop. Keeping up with that fun debating atmosphere you find at bars. I think that would fix a lot of things. People can get too personal on here.

[bilsu]

Agreed... however, an important detail we should note here is that, of those who did, no one broke bad on Newbill until after it was announced that the NLI was voided.  So let's be careful not to jump to blaming Scoop for chasing him off.

This is not true at all. There of plenty of posters were claiming he was no good based on his rating, before he left the program. There were plently of posters saying they did not like Buzz getting a committment from Dawson and even further saying they bet he would not even show up for this coming year. Of course the same thing was said about Roseboro. The fact that in the end the posters were right about Roseboro does not make it right to attack players before they even show up. I see no reason to attack our players who are playing to their ability and representing the university well. I love Derrick Wilson, because he plays hard and does what he can to help the team. The same goes for Jake Thomas and Juan Anderson. Not everyone can be a star. We need solid role players that do all they can to help the team.

[jmayer1]

Nothing wrong with guys arguing sports. Hell, apart from women, sports is the second most common conversation in every bar in America. I think there's a lot of fun in debating such burning issues as who was the greatest right handed hitter (Molitor, of course)

I sure hope this was a sarcastic homer comment.

[keefe]

Mickey went both ways.

Of course he did. And there was no finer drag bunter in baseball history. But Mick batted .330 as a right hander and .280 as a lefty. Most believe it was the right shoulder injury suffered in the '57 Series that hampered his swing from the left. In the 3rd game against the Braves Mantle walked then advanced to second when Berra also walked. Bob Buhl tried to pick him off but his throw was high and Red Schoendienst had to climb a ladder to get it. Schoendienst came down square on Mantle's right shoulder. Mantle's famous perfectly level swing was never the same from the left. 

[keefe]

No, keefe, I clearly understood the point you were trying to make (though I needed a dixnary to understand some of yer fancy talkin' and Hahvahd words). Posting something that might be viewed as offensive by a recruits' parents - and what you posted absolutely qualifies - is no less offensive because you think it's "evincive."

Your scolding of other posters is hypocritical, misplaced and perhaps a classic case of Freudian projection.

I have never written any judgment of any recruit or Marquette team member as I am clearly not qualified in terms of talent, skill, or expertise in playing, coaching, or evaluating basketball. And that is the essence of this thread.

As for the question you raise, comparing a Harvard Business School case study on the impact of negative brand associations is highly relevant when considering the resurrection of the Marquette Warrior thematic. The Sambos brand case illustrates how racially offensive imagery is lethally toxic. Such is the case with a Marquette Warrior brand represented by Willie Wampum.

Your reply demonstrates you miss the point of the original post entirely. Naivete is one thing but to be both shallow and callow is impressive.

[Pakuni]

Your reply demonstrates you miss the point of the original post entirely. Naivete is one thing but to be both shallow and callow is impressive.

This would have been much better in haiku form.

[real chili 83]

Anyone remember the nice post Dawson's dad had after his son signed?

Actually, no.  How can I find it?  Thanks.

Here's two of Mr. Dawson's posts....


dddawson
 Walk-On

 Posts: 3




Re: Dawson to MU!

« Reply #118 on: September 27, 2012, 09:45:41 AM »


Quote
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

he's 6'3 and still growing ..... i'm his dad and will tell you that he truly had 37 offers with high majors still calling even though he chose MU.  he didnt just grab the opportunity because he felt it was a one time deal, but because he trusted GOD for his path and was strongly recruited by buzz and brad and who flew out to our home 3 times this month alone and showed him great love from a great program!!! .... just recd 13 calls yesterday from BCS schools that want him to not sign with MU in NOV so that they can get on board.  JohnJohn is EXCITED to be a part of the MU family and so are we!!! .... long way from home ..... lots and lots of hard work .... and is excited to get even better!!! .... i truly believe MU is and will be blessed by his talent .... i'm excited!!!
 


dddawson
 Walk-On

 Posts: 3

Re: Dawson to MU!

« Reply #120 on: September 27, 2012, 09:56:04 AM »


Quote
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

also ..... buzz and the MU staff have watched several games from this past year including the state playoffs where his high school team knocked off the number one team in the state.   johnjohn knows it wont be a cake walk at MU and that there are no gimmees

[Benny B]

This is not true at all. There of plenty of posters were claiming he was no good based on his rating, before he left the program.

That happens ALL the time.  Heck... if you want to dig, you can find similar comments on Jae, DJO, JFB, etc.  When I say "breaking bad," I'm not talking about critiques of one's game/ratings/etc... I'm talking about the personal attacks and driving players off.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I just don't know any MU fan that is cheering for Vander to fail.  There are many that wish he would have stayed for any number of reasons (develop better, good team coming back, etc), there are certainly some that don't think he will succeed or be drafted (that doesn't mean they want this to happen).
That is being naive or dishonest or both because THERE ARE those who want him to fail and not get drafted and will be the first ones if it happens to say that "I told you so!"
You can bet your bottom dollar on it. So please don't say that. And don''t say tha it is not true because it is and he knows and he knows some are thinking and hoping it, ad Vander probaly with his Type A personality ( And no A does not stand for Arrogance as many believe..) he relishes itad thrives on that kind of motivation.
I for one am just elated that another young man I was fortunate to be in some service to is moving on to persuehis dream like many other students today not aiming for the NBA on graduation night

Just because someone says he won't get drafted doesn't mean he wants that to happen.  Hell, in some cases it might better if he doesn't get drafted...see Wes Matthews.

I don't know anyone here based on what I have read that wants Vander to fail.  Sure, there will be some that said "I told you so" if he doesn't get drafted, that's far different than wanting him to fail.  Maybe those individuals believe he would have been wiser to stay in school.  Who knows, but the charge that some people want him to fail is extreme.

The only people here that I have seen that want someone to fail are those that have flat out said it about our former coach.  That's the ONLY time I have seen it here related to basketball.  Otherwise, provide some actual evidence that people want him to fail...I don't think you find any.

[TallTitan34]

I think there's a lot of fun in debating such burning issues as who was the greatest right handed hitter (Molitor, of course) or the best southpaw among Spahn, Koufax, Carlton, or Big Unit?  

Hopefully you were joking considering Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, and Joe DiMaggio were all right handed.

[MU82]

If Scoop deserves scorn for costing us a recruit, do we get credit for this year's Top 10 class?

[Pakuni]

Hopefully you were joking considering Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, and Joe DiMaggio were all right handed.

Rogers Hornsby. .358 career average = second best of all-time, behind only Ty Cobb.

Among the more modern-era players, it's Frank Thomas and Albert Pujols.

[MerrittsMustache]

No question Henderson played at an extremely high level for 23 years. I was at the game at County Stadium when he broke Lou Brock's record. My issue with RH are the swirling suggestions of PED use. I am of the opinion that anyone who used PEDs has tainted accomplishment and should not be eligible for the Hall. Pete Rose belongs well before Clemens, McGwire, Palmeiro, Bonds, et al. What's a damn shame is that Clemens in his prime was a machine. Too bad he made a bad choice later in his career.

Given your praise of Molitor, I assume you have no issues with cocaine use though.

(Hopefully Paul Molitor's mom doesn't read this post)

[swoopem]

Rogers Hornsby. .358 career average = second best of all-time, behind only Ty Cobb.

Among the more modern-era players, it's Frank Thomas and Albert Pujols.

And Miggy Cabera, that guy is a straight up beast. Wouldn't be surprised to see him get the triple crown again

[jmayer1]

Hopefully you were joking considering Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, and Joe DiMaggio were all right handed.

+1

There's about 30 guys I would rattle off without even thinking about Molitor. He's not even in that conversation (unless it's only drunk Brewer fans).

Maybe if you're talking about "pure hitters" or some other phrase to describe guys without a lot of power.

[reinko]

Rogers Hornsby. .358 career average = second best of all-time, behind only Ty Cobb.

Among the more modern-era players, it's Frank Thomas and Albert Pujols.

And Manny of course, albeit with the roids rumors.

[keefe]

+1

There's about 30 guys I would rattle off without even thinking about Molitor. He's not even in that conversation (unless it's only drunk Brewer fans).

Maybe if you're talking about "pure hitters" or some other phrase to describe guys without a lot of power.

I was just stirring the pot with Molitor. I really like Molitor and Ichiro (a lefty) as leadoffs. I have read Hornsby was the greatest but i never saw him or Joe D play. And I only saw Hank and Willie on the far downward slope so i can't really comment.

Molitor belongs in the Hall but he isn't the best righty of all time. Two other names are Kaline and Yount.