How about Wichita State smoking the Buckeyes?

[MURFC]

Wow!  Good for the Schockers. Another B10 school about to go down.

[MattyWarrior]

Look again

[Sunbelt15]

Who said the B10 was the best conference? BE baby!

[Newsdreams]

Wichita about to blow it! Need to score if they want to win.

[jesmu84]

Refs doing everything they can to give this game to OSU. Free throw disparity this half is unreal.

[MURFC]

Look again

No kidding.  Not my team, so I don't care about speaking too soon.  Great game down the stretch!

[KenoshaWarrior]

Refs doing everything they can to give this game to OSU. Free throw disparity this half is unreal.

OSU gets like every call  
That charge call was an atrocity!!

[Newsdreams]

Refs doing everything they can to give this game to OSU. Free throw disparity this half is unreal.

Totally it is just incredible some of the foul calls they have gotten

[Newsdreams]

Wichita fouled on that made shot not even called.

[Eldon]

remember the idea of having Final Four with all four coming from the Bit Teen?  Could be that they don't get any in the FF.

[Eldon]

Wichita helps my bracket.  And they are a Jordan team.  Go shockers!

[Avenue Commons]

Wichita helps my bracket.  And they are a Jordan team.  Go shockers!

They buy their own jerseys. Their home jerseys are Nike, non Brand Jordan.

Love seeing the Big 10 get knocked out. 2 Big East teams still in play.

[GGGG]

They buy their own jerseys. Their home jerseys are Nike, non Brand Jordan.

Love seeing the Big 10 get knocked out. 2 Big East teams still in play.

They have the Jumpman logo...isn't that brand Jordan?

[Eldon]

THE SHOCKERS!! 

THEE Wichita State University

[Jay Bee]

It's gotta make chicos squirm. JUCO city there.

[🏀]

They have the Jumpman logo...isn't that brand Jordan?

WS is a Jordan team. Not a featured team,but still a team. So is Albany, Fresno and St. Bonny, cant just have four good teams and make money. Expand that revenue.

[ChicosBailBonds]

It's gotta make chicos squirm. JUCO city there.

I prefer 4 year players.  Most successful programs go that route, because kids are there for 4 full years.  I'm excited about having Steve Taylor for three more years for example. Of Vander for four years.

[bilsu]

Gonzaga got a lot of criticism for losing to them in the third round. They ended up beating the one and two seeds on the way to final four. Indiana should of lost in the third round but escaped to be whipped in fourth round. There really was not that much difference between Gonzaga and Indiana.

[keefe]

There really was not that much difference between Gonzaga and Indiana.

Biggest difference is that Few is both a better coach and superior human being.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Gonzaga got a lot of criticism for losing to them in the third round. They ended up beating the one and two seeds on the way to final four. Indiana should of lost in the third round but escaped to be whipped in fourth round. There really was not that much difference between Gonzaga and Indiana.

Why don't we wait to see how far Syracuse goes before answering that.  It's a crapshoot.  Gonzaga also struggled just to beat a 16 seed and IU smoked their 16 seed game.  IU won their second game, and the Zags didn't.  IU also won a real conference this year.  There was plenty of difference between the two.  What would Gonzaga have gone in the Big Ten this year...6, 7 losses?

[brewcity77]

I prefer 4 year players.  Most successful programs go that route, because kids are there for 4 full years.  I'm excited about having Steve Taylor for three more years for example. Of Vander for four years.

Hmm...at the highest levels, I'd actually disagree with that. Kentucky kids aren't there for 4 full years. North Carolina kids, Kansas kids, Duke kids aren't there for 4 full years. Yes, some of them are, but their best players are in the NBA within 1-3 years. Who is worth more to a program, someone like Jimmy Butler who comes in and contributes what he does for 3 years or Nerlens Noel who is likely headed to the NBA after 1 year at Kentucky when they missed the tournament? I'd even argue Jae Crowder was worth more to Marquette than Shabazz Muhammad was to UCLA. He reached the Sweet 16 twice in two solid years while Shabazz had moments of brilliance but only for one year.

If you want to be an elite program, it's virtually assured that you are going to have players that don't give you 4 full years. When you are Kentucky, Kansas, or UCLA, your best players leave before 4 years are up. When you take JUCOs, it's the same. They leave before 4 years are up. But if they are going to play at NBA draft pick levels like Butler, Crowder, DJO, and hopefully McKay, does it really matter whether the missing 1-2 years are at the front or back of their career?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Hmm...at the highest levels, I'd actually disagree with that. Kentucky kids aren't there for 4 full years. North Carolina kids, Kansas kids, Duke kids aren't there for 4 full years. Yes, some of them are, but their best players are in the NBA within 1-3 years. Who is worth more to a program, someone like Jimmy Butler who comes in and contributes what he does for 3 years or Nerlens Noel who is likely headed to the NBA after 1 year at Kentucky when they missed the tournament? I'd even argue Jae Crowder was worth more to Marquette than Shabazz Muhammad was to UCLA. He reached the Sweet 16 twice in two solid years while Shabazz had moments of brilliance but only for one year.

If you want to be an elite program, it's virtually assured that you are going to have players that don't give you 4 full years. When you are Kentucky, Kansas, or UCLA, your best players leave before 4 years are up. When you take JUCOs, it's the same. They leave before 4 years are up. But if they are going to play at NBA draft pick levels like Butler, Crowder, DJO, and hopefully McKay, does it really matter whether the missing 1-2 years are at the front or back of their career?

Brew, does KU, UK, UCLA, IU, Duke, UNC, etc recruit JUCOs or HS players?

I prefer 4 year players...you can't get 4 years out of a JUCO.  There's  a reason why elite programs recruit HS players.  Sure, not all will make it 4 years, but they are recruiting HS kids for a reason.

[keefe]

There was plenty of difference between the two. 

There sure is. The Zags coach is a decent, genuine gentleman while the IU coach is a charlatan.

[keefe]

Brew, does KU, UK, UCLA, IU, Duke, UNC, etc recruit JUCOs or HS players?

Chico, what are your thoughts about Jerome Whitehead or Lloyd Walton? 

[brewcity77]

Brew, does KU, UK, UCLA, IU, Duke, UNC, etc recruit JUCOs or HS players?

No. You specifically said players that are there for 4 full years. I'm saying if you get someone with the talent and impact of a Jae Crowder, DJO, or Butler for 2-3 years, you take them. And FWIW Kentucky did offer Jimmy Butler a scholarship and Joe Fulce convinced him to stick with Buzz and Marquette.

The 4-year argument just doesn't hold up the way it used to. The elite programs are all trying to get guys they know will be there for 1-2 years. I fail to see how recruiting a JUCO All-American is different.

Well...I guess it is different. The JUCO guys have a much better chance of leaving with a degree.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chico, what are your thoughts about Jerome Whitehead or Lloyd Walton? 

Important players for our program, RIP Mr. Whitehead.  Both went to JUCOs.

I prefer going after HS players, even if they don't make it 4 years.

Dwyane Wade
Steve Novak
Wes Matthews
Robert Jackson
Travis Diener
Steve Taylor
Dominic James
Jerel McNeal
Allie McGuire


etc, etc

That's my preference.  Plenty of ways to skin the cat, but that's my preference.  I'd rather they learn their way from Freshmen through Seniors.   Plenty of great examples of JUCOs doing great at MU and elsewhere, no one is denying that.  Nor is anyone saying don't take JUCOs.  We have a very good one coming in next year, but that is my preference.   I wish we had Jae at least one more year.  Here for a second and then gone it seems.  Great players, but gone too quickly.

[keefe]

Important players for our program, RIP Mr. Whitehead.  Both went to JUCOs.

I prefer going after HS players, even if they don't make it 4 years.

Dwyane Wade
Steve Novak
Wes Matthews
Robert Jackson
Travis Diener
Steve Taylor
Dominic James
Jerel McNeal
Allie McGuire


etc, etc

That's my preference.  Plenty of ways to skin the cat, but that's my preference.  I'd rather they learn their way from Freshmen through Seniors.   Plenty of great examples of JUCOs doing great at MU and elsewhere, no one is denying that.  Nor is anyone saying don't take JUCOs.  We have a very good one coming in next year, but that is my preference.   I wish we had Jae at least one more year.  Here for a second and then gone it seems.  Great players, but gone too quickly.

We both know Al stashed players at Saddleback his entire time at Marquette. This was a policy of Al's. Was it wrong?

[brewcity77]

If Jae put up the same numbers as a freshman and sophomore as he did as a transfer junior and senior, there's still a good chance he leaves at that point. DJO and Jimmy also could have justified early entry if they had been 4-year track juniors, and being drafted would have justified the decision.

In today's college basketball, the only times your true stars shine for 4 years is if their game or frame has a fatal flaw, like DJ's outside shot or Jerel's height. I just feel Jimmy Butler with a degree is worth much more as an ambassador of Marquette than Nerlens Noel, Ben McLemore, Shabazz Muhammad, or other one-and-dones that saw their college career as nothing but a stepping stone.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love some one-and-done talent here, but in an era where your best players won't play 4 years anyway, I'd rather my sub-4 year guys have a chance at a degree.

[seakm4]

IU also won a real conference this year.

we know.  who could forget them cutting down the nets at 7 am?

[ATL MU Warrior]

Why don't we wait to see how far Syracuse goes before answering that.  It's a crapshoot.  Gonzaga also struggled just to beat a 16 seed and IU smoked their 16 seed game.  IU won their second game, and the Zags didn't.  IU also won a real conference this year.  There was plenty of difference between the two.  What would Gonzaga have gone in the Big Ten this year...6, 7 losses?

Gee, just a few short days ago you pontificated that if Gonzaga was in the Big 10 they'd have 4-5 losses.  Just Like Indiana at 14-4.  Ironic.

[GGGG]

Biggest difference is that Few is both a better coach and superior human being.

..................

[KenoshaWarrior]

Brew, does KU, UK, UCLA, IU, Duke, UNC, etc recruit JUCOs or HS players?

I prefer 4 year players...you can't get 4 years out of a JUCO.  There's  a reason why elite programs recruit HS players.  Sure, not all will make it 4 years, but they are recruiting HS kids for a reason.

They dont recruit Jucos because they get 5 star HS players.  Most Juco kids are ones that were overlooked by major colleges so instead of playing D2,D3, or Low D-1 they decide to play at a JUCO.  If you are NC, KU, UCLA, Kentucky you dont need to wait for a player to develop they already are

[ecompt]

We both know Al stashed players at Saddleback his entire time at Marquette. This was a policy of Al's. Was it wrong?

Np, it's not wrong but not true, either. Al took very few JUCOs at Marquette. He built around his four-year recruits -- George Thompson, Dino, Gary Brell, Chones, Larry McNeill, Maurice Lucas, Bo Ellis, Butch Lee, Toone, Allie -- and filled in here and there.

[wildbill sb]

Chico, what are your thoughts about Jerome Whitehead or Lloyd Walton? 

and Ulice Payne and Jimmy Boylan?

[brewcity77]

Also, I think it's safe to say we aren't at the level of UNC, Duke, or Kansas just yet. But how about these JUCO recruits?

2013 PG Chris Jones - Louisville
2013 C Keanau Post - Missouri
2013 PG Kenny Cherry - Baylor
2012 SG Geron Johnson - Memphis
2012 PF Matt Korcheck - Arizona
2012 PF Tony Criswell - Missouri
2011 PG Pierre Jackson - Baylor
2011 SG De'End Parker - UCLA
2011 C Philip Jurick - Oklahoma State
2010 PF Ricardo Ratliffe - Missouri
2010 PG Lazaric Jones - UCLA
2010 C Eloy Vargas - Kentucky
2010 C Guy-Marc Michel - Indiana
2009 PF Will Coleman - Memphis

Those are just a few examples of programs that are recruiting both 5-star high school players and JUCO players. Four of those schools, Louisville, UCLA, Kentucky, and Indiana are all generally considered blue blood programs. There are countless other schools going after JUCOs that I didn't mention. Florida State, Gonzaga, St. John's, West Virginia, Kansas State, and others that are like us somewhat on the cusp.

But to simply answer CBB's question, yes, UK, UCLA, and IU all recruit JUCOs. There may be some schools that don't, but quite a few blue blood programs do.

[Silkk the Shaka]

Important players for our program, RIP Mr. Whitehead.  Both went to JUCOs.

I prefer going after HS players, even if they don't make it 4 years.

Dwyane Wade
Steve Novak
Wes Matthews
Robert Jackson
Travis Diener
Steve Taylor
Dominic James
Jerel McNeal
Allie McGuire


etc, etc

That's my preference.  Plenty of ways to skin the cat, but that's my preference.  I'd rather they learn their way from Freshmen through Seniors.   Plenty of great examples of JUCOs doing great at MU and elsewhere, no one is denying that.  Nor is anyone saying don't take JUCOs.  We have a very good one coming in next year, but that is my preference.   I wish we had Jae at least one more year.  Here for a second and then gone it seems.  Great players, but gone too quickly.

Do yourself a favor and cut "etc, etc." out of your lexicon completely. Almost as annoying as your constant Crean taint sniffing.

[keefe]

Np, it's not wrong but not true, either. Al took very few JUCOs at Marquette. He built around his four-year recruits -- George Thompson, Dino, Gary Brell, Chones, Larry McNeill, Maurice Lucas, Bo Ellis, Butch Lee, Toone, Allie -- and filled in here and there.

Precisely, just like Buzz. Fact is though, Al had a "relationship" with Saddleback's coach and other Div I coaches "understood" that arrangement

[ChicosBailBonds]

No. You specifically said players that are there for 4 full years. I'm saying if you get someone with the talent and impact of a Jae Crowder, DJO, or Butler for 2-3 years, you take them. And FWIW Kentucky did offer Jimmy Butler a scholarship and Joe Fulce convinced him to stick with Buzz and Marquette.

The 4-year argument just doesn't hold up the way it used to. The elite programs are all trying to get guys they know will be there for 1-2 years. I fail to see how recruiting a JUCO All-American is different.

Well...I guess it is different. The JUCO guys have a much better chance of leaving with a degree.

Fair point. 

For me, personally, I would still rather have HS players and I believe that's why the elite programs go there first, second, third, fourth.  If there is a need for a JUCO to fill, why not.  You used Kentucky as an example, on the other end there is Duke with Plumlee as a senior, Kelly as a senior, Curry as a senior (yes, I know he's a transfer).   Kansas roster, Withey as a senior, Johnson as a senior, Releford as a senior, Young as a senior. 

Etc, etc. 

There was an interview with Jae Crowder last year in which he said it took him nearly the entire year (his first year) to figure out what was even going on.  Steve Taylor said the same thing in an interview this year.  I'd prefer that happens in their freshman year and not when they only have one year left of eligibility once they have figured it out.

Happy Easter

[ChicosBailBonds]

Gee, just a few short days ago you pontificated that if Gonzaga was in the Big 10 they'd have 4-5 losses.  Just Like Indiana at 14-4.  Ironic.

Yeah, poor pontification on my part a few short days ago.  No way they would get through with 4 or 5 losses.  They couldn't even beat Illinois on their home court.  Put another way, how many of the top 10 teams would go undefeated in the WCC?  Every one of them

[Lennys Tap]

Yeah, poor pontification on my part a few short days ago.  No way they would get through with 4 or 5 losses.  They couldn't even beat Illinois on their home court. 

One game. Crapshoot. Matchups. Blah,blah,blah. Remind you of anyone?

[Dr. Blackheart]

Also, I think it's safe to say we aren't at the level of UNC, Duke, or Kansas just yet. But how about these JUCO recruits?

2013 PG Chris Jones - Louisville
2013 C Keanau Post - Missouri
2013 PG Kenny Cherry - Baylor
2012 SG Geron Johnson - Memphis
2012 PF Matt Korcheck - Arizona
2012 PF Tony Criswell - Missouri
2011 PG Pierre Jackson - Baylor
2011 SG De'End Parker - UCLA
2011 C Philip Jurick - Oklahoma State
2010 PF Ricardo Ratliffe - Missouri
2010 PG Lazaric Jones - UCLA
2010 C Eloy Vargas - Kentucky
2010 C Guy-Marc Michel - Indiana
2009 PF Will Coleman - Memphis

Those are just a few examples of programs that are recruiting both 5-star high school players and JUCO players. Four of those schools, Louisville, UCLA, Kentucky, and Indiana are all generally considered blue blood programs. There are countless other schools going after JUCOs that I didn't mention. Florida State, Gonzaga, St. John's, West Virginia, Kansas State, and others that are like us somewhat on the cusp.

But to simply answer CBB's question, yes, UK, UCLA, and IU all recruit JUCOs. There may be some schools that don't, but quite a few blue blood programs do.

Let's not forget recruits Mario Little at Kansas or Carrick Felix at Duke (who signed but got Coach K'oed.)

[ChicosBailBonds]

One game. Crapshoot. Matchups. Blah,blah,blah. Remind you of anyone?

Correct. 

Lenny, if Gonzaga was in the Big East, ACC, or Big Ten...how many losses do you think they would have?  Do you think they would have won any of those leagues?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Also, I think it's safe to say we aren't at the level of UNC, Duke, or Kansas just yet. But how about these JUCO recruits?

2013 PG Chris Jones - Louisville
2013 C Keanau Post - Missouri
2013 PG Kenny Cherry - Baylor
2012 SG Geron Johnson - Memphis
2012 PF Matt Korcheck - Arizona
2012 PF Tony Criswell - Missouri
2011 PG Pierre Jackson - Baylor
2011 SG De'End Parker - UCLA
2011 C Philip Jurick - Oklahoma State
2010 PF Ricardo Ratliffe - Missouri
2010 PG Lazaric Jones - UCLA
2010 C Eloy Vargas - Kentucky
2010 C Guy-Marc Michel - Indiana
2009 PF Will Coleman - Memphis

Those are just a few examples of programs that are recruiting both 5-star high school players and JUCO players. Four of those schools, Louisville, UCLA, Kentucky, and Indiana are all generally considered blue blood programs. There are countless other schools going after JUCOs that I didn't mention. Florida State, Gonzaga, St. John's, West Virginia, Kansas State, and others that are like us somewhat on the cusp.

But to simply answer CBB's question, yes, UK, UCLA, and IU all recruit JUCOs. There may be some schools that don't, but quite a few blue blood programs do.

Correct.  Always going to be some, no one said differently...on occasion those programs will take JUCO players.  They rely, however, mostly on HS players.  As should Marquette in my opinion. 

[Lennys Tap]

Correct. 

Lenny, if Gonzaga was in the Big East, ACC, or Big Ten...how many losses do you think they would have?  Do you think they would have won any of those leagues?

Close, but probably not. All I'm saying is using one relatively meaningless preseason game to extrapolate a season and them dismissing the most important measuring stick games as crapshoots is absurd.

[Lennys Tap]

Np, it's not wrong but not true, either. Al took very few JUCOs at Marquette. He built around his four-year recruits -- George Thompson, Dino, Gary Brell, Chones, Larry McNeill, Maurice Lucas, Bo Ellis, Butch Lee, Toone, Allie -- and filled in here and there.

Gary Brell was a transfer. Chones was here 1.75 years, McNeill and Lucas left early.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Close, but probably not. All I'm saying is using one relatively meaningless preseason game to extrapolate a season and them dismissing the most important measuring stick games as crapshoots is absurd.

Preseason game, or do you mean non-conference game?

Of course the difference is that they knew they were playing Illinois as they put the schedule together. They knew months ahead of time who they were playing.  This is what changes the crapshoot level considerably for the postseason. You don't know who you are playing until seeds come out.  Even then, you don't know who your second opponent is until that game is determined as well.  Thus, crapshoot at a whole different level.  Sorry, but Gonzaga didn't prove anything in the regular season other than they can win a terrible league and can lose to the 6th place Big Ten team and home and the 5th place A-10 team on the road.  They also proved they can beat Oklahoma State by 1 point.  In a real league, they end up as a 3 to 6 seed.

[4everwarriors]

Just to put my historian hat on, Jim Chones (#22) left MU as a junior in February 1972, or 2 3/4 years after matriculation. He did, however, have 1 3/4 years of varsity experience since freshman weren't able to compete right out of high school. Therein, lies any possible confusion.

[jesmu84]

Yeah, poor pontification on my part a few short days ago.  No way they would get through with 4 or 5 losses.  They couldn't even beat Illinois on their home court.  Put another way, how many of the top 10 teams would go undefeated in the WCC?  Every one of them

No way you can make that claim. IU lost at Minnesota. You're telling me they couldn't have lost at St. Marys? Kansas lost at TCU. You're saying they wouldn't have lost at home to San Diego St? Etc, etc. I don't think Gonzaga would have won the Big Ten. But you absolutely cannot discount Gonzaga going undefeated in their conference. That's a great achievement for any team in any conference because nearly any team could lose to another on any night. Garbage argument.

Edit: Fixed Kansas loss

[brewcity77]

No way you can make that claim. IU lost at Minnesota. You're telling me they couldn't have lost at St. Marys? Kansas lost at home to TCU. You're saying they wouldn't have lost at home to San Diego St? Etc, etc. I don't think Gonzaga would have won the Big Ten. But you absolutely cannot discount Gonzaga going undefeated in their conference. That's a great achievement for any team in any conference because nearly any team could lose to another on any night. Garbage argument.

Kansas didn't lose at home to TCU, they lost on the road. And Kansas isn't a Big Teen team. Agreed that it was a big achievement for Gonzaga, but anyone that thought they were really the best team in the country was simply delusional. The only reason they got to the #1 ranking and a 1-seed was because of attrition. They really shouldn't have been any better than a 2-seed, and I could see an argument for a 3-seed based on that #75 SOS.

[jesmu84]

Kansas didn't lose at home to TCU, they lost on the road. And Kansas isn't a Big Teen team. Agreed that it was a big achievement for Gonzaga, but anyone that thought they were really the best team in the country was simply delusional. The only reason they got to the #1 ranking and a 1-seed was because of attrition. They really shouldn't have been any better than a 2-seed, and I could see an argument for a 3-seed based on that #75 SOS.

I quoted Chico's saying that every top 10 team would go undefeated in the WCC. That's what I was arguing against. So Kansas being not a Big 10 team doesn't matter. 

I was never saying Gonzaga was the best team in the nation or even should have been a #1 seed. I was simply saying that Gonzaga's undefeated conference season was impressive and to state that all top 10 teams would have gone undefeated is totally ridiculous.

[ChicosBailBonds]

No way you can make that claim. IU lost at Minnesota. You're telling me they couldn't have lost at St. Marys? Kansas lost at TCU. You're saying they wouldn't have lost at home to San Diego St? Etc, etc. I don't think Gonzaga would have won the Big Ten. But you absolutely cannot discount Gonzaga going undefeated in their conference. That's a great achievement for any team in any conference because nearly any team could lose to another on any night. Garbage argument.

Edit: Fixed Kansas loss

Fair enough.  You are right, I can't make a 100% prediction that they would go undefeated in the WCC.

Let's just say I thought Gonzaga was overrated most of the year (for the record, I said the same thing about IU, no depth) and would struggle in the post season once they saw teams that were much better than the WCC.  It's hard to go 6 to 8 weeks and playing mostly mid level DI teams and then suddenly have to play high level competition.  IMO, Gonzaga was several steps below IU.  The Hoosiers beat some very quality teams this year, Michigan twice (Final Four), Michigan State twice (Sweet 16), Ohio State (Elite 8), Georgetown (Big East co champ), Minnesota (R32), Illinois (R32)...a far better results driven record than Gonzaga.  The tournament is a crap shoot, but even there IU went further.  Just my opinion.

[jesmu84]

Agree Gonzaga was overrated. Agree Gonzaga was overseeded. Gonzaga got to their spot by attrition. Again though, going undefeated in conference is something special.