Looks Like I Get to Flaunt...

[brewcity77]

I hope this thread serves as a reminder to all the Chicken Littles that one non-con loss isn't worth panicking about. I'm going to take a lot of pot-shots. I don't discriminate, I only looked at the comments made on December 19th and the days following. If your quote is here, it's not personal.

I'll start with the quote that inspired this thread:

Maybe we're growing up and realizing that bad as this may be, it's still just one game.

We'll beat LSU Saturday. We'll be in the NCAAs in March. I always expected this game to be tough. 6 of Green Bay's 7 losses came away from the Resch. I still think that if Brown plays to form they'll be a strong contender for the Horizon title.

Well, we did beat LSU. We are in the NCAA Tournament. Sunny days are here for all Marquette fans!

Oh, and Green Bay finished 4th & was a buzzer-beater away from playing for a NCAA berth. So what was the rest of the board saying? Let's get in the way-back machine...

We will not be dancing.  Can't shoot from the outside.  Just not that good.

I think, unfortunately, this is it. Lots of individual talent, but a lousy team. On the plus side, that's a recipe for getting better. On the downside, we've been watching some ugly, ugly basketball.

The great thing about sports: there's always next year!

When you said "there's always next year!", did you mean "three months later"? Because on the calendar, this IS next year

This team will have to claw to finish in the top half of the conference.

We started 4-0, then 6-1, and were never out of the top 4. Suffice to say these Golden Eagles barely scuffed their claws.

Right now, it feels like 2004 and 2005, without the two future NBA'ers.

Actually the opposite. We went 25-3 in games before January 9 in 2004 and 2005. Those teams fell apart as the year went on, this team improved. I feel much better about this team in March than I did those ones.

I like Vander Blue a whole lot, but if he is your go to guy (which he is right now), you're probably not going to have a great year.

14+ ppg, hit arguably Marquette's biggest shot in over 35 years, won us the Big East title, great may be subjective, but that meets my definition.

For a while I've felt this season is just a long funeral.  

Obviously, the Big East is dying as we know it, and I'm just not optimistic Buzz will remain at MU after this year .. which means we'll lose big chunks of the awesome recruiting class too.  

Losing to UWGB?  Just chapter 4 of this year's funeral.

So I guess after playing the Phoenix, we rose from the ashes?

Not really sure why people "can't wait for conference play"

Have you watched any MU games this year?  I don't think MU will be in the top half of the conference this year judging by the way they've played.

It's okay...even Sheldon is wrong sometimes.

Do people truly believe this is a real talented team depth wise?

In a word, yes.

This is an odd season.  First, the team isn't very talented. In the past Buzz found a super talented JUCO to step right in, becoming a catalyst for a good season. Paired with the schism from the off season, hard to be gung ho.

No JUCOs. I think we did okay.

MU weak vs zone defense

There, I fixed it for you.

I come from Marquette. You not say Marquette is weak. Marquette is game to you? How about I take your little board and smash! Marquette is strong!

(Regarding Vander Blue) He looks the part, can't play the part though.  Not a good leader.

Listen to this. Now who's playing the part?

This is exactly right.  Basketball isn't about 1-13 talent.  It is about top level talent.  And while this might be a real talented team depth wise, they don't have enough talent at the highest levels.

I love college basketball because statements like this are wrong. Depth, strategy, it all comes into play. In the NBA you're right, but there are different ways to win at this level. We beat 4-1 Syracuse, Georgetown, and Pitt, all of whom have more top level talent.

There is, I believe, a realization that there are serious deficiencies on this team.  They may have the most top to bottom talent, but they lack the one or two players that make the whole so much better. There is no explosive DJ or Wes that can either hit a three or drive by you.  There is no outside threat, (no matter how much irrational lusting we express for Jake Thomas to come in and start draining 3's --face it--that's not going to happen), and that is going to allow defenses to sag on both post and perimeter players, decreasing both the impact of our slashers and our posts and taking away from whatever talent they have.

This post missed what makes Buzz a great coach. People forget is there are different ways to win in college basketball. Blue is as explosive to the rack as we've seen in the past few years, he just had to improve his finishing. Very few teams were able to lessen DG's and CO's post efficiency, which improved as the year went on as Otule got back to health.

That's exactly why I said this could be Buzz's best team. Because the wealth of options makes it hard for teams to stop us. Shut down the post and Jamil will drop elbow jumpers on you. Come out to guard the midrange and Blue and Junior will drive by you. Use post defenders decide to close down the drive and they'll dish it to the players in the paint you are no longer guarding.

Yes, I think we have some very good athletes (Jamil and Vander in particular), but not necessarily a great basketball team.  Our PG makes too many mistakes, we do not have a consistent scorer or outside shooter.  Our bigs can be neutralized.  We are not able to get to the line much and when we do we are not able to convert.  The defense is not all bad, but there are lapses.  It's just a rebuilding year for us and there will be some growing pains.  I'm expecting that we will be middle to lower part of the of the Big East and play in the NIT.

If this is a rebuilding year, I expect Marquette to compete for the NBA Central Division crown in 2014.

I am not as upset as I would have been in years past because I just don't think we're that good.  I figured we'd win a close one, but a loss didn't surprise me.  I thought before the season started that we were either going to be among the last in or first out of the NCAA tournament, and now I just think we'll be among the first out.

We are that good. Definitely not first four out.

For the next post the names of the sets are in italics...

Based on how we've looked so far this year I'd think going 8-10 in conference is probably realistic.

Cincy, Cuse, Pitt x 2, ND, UL, GTown x 2

At best, go 2-6 in the first set of games above (win Pitt @ home and Gtown @ home)

UConn and Providence

1-1 in next set (lose to UCONN win vs Providence)

'Nova, USF x 2, Rutgers, SJU, DePaul, SHU x 2

Go 5-3 in the last set (win USF/Depaul/SH at home, go 2-3 on the road)

Just don't see us winning on the road except against the bottom of the barrel.  Hoping for some improvement sometime soon, but we've played a third of the season and we should have seen something by now...

Instead we went 5-3 in the first set, 2-0 in the second, and 7-1 in the last. But what difference does 6 wins make? (Spoiler...a conference title)

All those close games against cupcakes and now this.  This team has some real problems that are going to continue to plaque them.

Junior has never been able to reach the level of our prior point guard leaders and now he isn't able to become the senior leader.

CO isn't going to lead anything.  Lockett good rebounder but no shot and no leadership. Theres the senior class.

Wilson has great talent but doesn't concentrate and is too up and down.

If you had to have a 3 to win your only real choice is Vander and he is not a 3 point shooter.  The rest of them I would have very little confidence of making a 3, they just aren't good outside shooters.

I'm not as disappointed in this loss as say DePaul a few years ago because this MU team is simply not very good.  They remind me of a Providence or Seton Hall team.  They could beat a good team if they got hot but they will lose most of their games.  The guys who think this can become a Tournament team, I'm sorry I just don't see it.

Apparently the dental students fixed the plaque. Junior stepped up as a leader. Otule improved all year long. Lockett has been a fantastic glue guy that does a bit of everything. Maybe not a great outside shooting team, but a number of guys have hit big threes this year as I mentioned. This MU team IS very good, definitely better than Providence and Seton Hall. Of all the comments I have looked at, saying "they will lose most of their games" is maybe the most short-sighted comment I read. But since you didn't see them even becoming a Tournament team, I guess short-sighted is no surprise.

This simply is not a very good Marquette team.

Some folks I really respect here have said many times that they think this might be the most talented team we've had in years. Sorry, but those folks are wrong.

We are not strong enough at point guard, not consistent enough at several other positions and cannot shoot well enough ... period. You have to hit shots to beat a zone. You have to hit shots to win games.

I'd love to believe we are an NCAA tourney team but I don't know what anybody has seen so far to suggest we are one. We haven't beaten anybody, we lost to the best team on our schedule by a gazillion points and we lost to a 3-7 team in our big "road test."

Panicking? Please. Teams ebb and flow. Even "legacy" programs like UNC and UCLA and Indiana have down years. I love our recruiting class coming in next season. I'm not panicking, just being realistic based on all the evidence the Warrior Eagles have presented.

If calmly stating the facts qualifies as a meltdown, then I guess I plead guilty.

I'm going to assume that when 82 said that bolded bit, I was one of the people he was referring to. Regarding the rest of it...Junior proved he is a Senior. The shot against UConn displayed ice-water veins. This team was the best 2P% shooting team in the Big East and the second best FT shooting team. In the era of the three-point shot, everyone has become convinced you have to be able to hit threes to win but the simple truth is most of the scoring still comes inside the arc, and this team is very good at that. And when we've needed a clutch three, guys like Junior, Vander, Mayo, and even Jake have stepped up and delivered.

You may not have been melting down, but you were certainly disconnected from reality. I hope hearing our name called out on the Selection Show today plugged you back in.

Here's news:

This team is not goin' to suddenly improve with the addition of Mayo. Fact is they are seriously devoid of talent in the senior class.

What's most disturbing is Buzz said they had a terrific practice on Tues. Then, they let GB dictate the tempo and take the game to 'em.

We'll find out this season how good of a coach Buzz is.

They were never going to suddenly improve, it was a development process. I'd say while maybe not the most talented players on the team, guys like Junior and Trent definitely led the way to a number of victories, and there's a ton of talent in our junior class. We did find out how good of a coach Buzz is, though. In terms of recruiting, game-planning, and in-game adjustments, I think he's one of the better guys out there. There isn't another coach in the country I'd rather have in charge of our program.

just watching this team, it's hard to see them winning any big games this season. i think that's because they are so different from the past 4-5 years teams's in style of play. they really have no defined identity right now. seems like the D was solid last night, but was terrible in the 1st H against Sav St. Looks like Wilson has bursts of greatness, but also long lulls where he's invisible. Lockett plays good D and gets a ton of boards, but has no idea what's going on on offense.

the biggest difference though is toughness. one thing you always knew about MU was that they would scrap, fight, bother, harass, whatever to keep games close and out hustle teams. maybe that only shows when they are playing the underdog, but i just dont see it so far this year.

so, while the numbers are suggesting that MU's not too bad, the eye test says they have a long way to go and have shown no signs of improvement so far. hope i'm wrong...

You were. Identity found, toughness present, character revealed, Big East champs.

Buzz was a spectacular hire and I've never been happier to be so wrong.

With that said, as far as this team is concerned, if you'd all just listen to me you wouldn't be surprised. Wilson has been a better player than Junior since he stepped on campus. Our best player is Jamil, but he's too passive to be effective. Unfortunately, our most assertive player is Blue and he possesses almost zero offensive ability unless the stars are aligned and his running floaters start miraculously coming off the glass at the exact right angle and finding their way through the hoop. Gardner has some ability, but no real athleticism. Thomas is terrified out there. Lockett is a poor man's Joe Chapman.

About the only guy I've been pleasantly surprised with has been Taylor.

Our heavy minutes should come from:

D Wilson
J Wilson
Anderson
Taylor
Blue/Mayo
Gardner

I said it last year.  I don't think Cadougan belongs on a high D1 floor. He's unathletic, overweight and not a particularly good game manager. We can't sit around waiting for him to have his one game in 10 when he plays well. The season is on the line. Get Wilson in there, play Anderson for his energy and maybe those two guys can light a fire under Jamil, Davante and the rest.

That was a bad, bad loss. In fact, I thought GB was so bad at the Bradley Center last year that Wardle could be fired...and he might be after this year.

Hopefully this season has helped you realize that when it comes to basketball, Buzz is much, much, much smarter than you are. Wilson at this point is a game manager and doesn't have nearly the vision, finishing ability, or late-game calm of Junior. Players with zero offensive ability don't score 14+ ppg. Gardner has more than just "some ability". A rotation that didn't include Junior, Otule, or Lockett in the first 7 much less starting wouldn't have been nearly as successful and Wardle isn't getting fired. Pretty much your entire post was wrong. And while losing to Green Bay was a bad loss, they will finish around 150 in the RPI. On the road, there are worse teams to lose to. But even worse...someone AGREED with you!

Puerto Rico hit the nail on the head.

Derick is light years ahead of Junior this year.  Many make the arguement that "the offense runs better through Junior"  I have a question for those people, What offense?  Have you seen any this year?

For the people who say Junior makes the offense better, please give me an example this year other than his fluke second half game against Madison. That was his best game in 4 years here...  Junior is far too slow on defense, he's a liability, who looks like he's in quick sand as Horizon league guards run around him.  What do you think BEast guards are going to do?

If anybody should be critisized it's definitely Cadougan.

Trimmed some here, but how long can this post be? (The answer is 20,000 characters) Yes, I've seen offense. According to Pomeroy, it's a top-20 offense in terms of efficiency. You want examples from this year? Maybe it's not fair to take games after you said this, but it's my thread so I play by my rules. How about LSU, UNCC, UConn...and those are just the next three games we played. If the games against Butler, Wisconsin, and UMBC didn't convince you he could step up, I don't know what team you were watching.

There was a lot of hand-wringing following the Green Bay game, but personally, I never doubted this team would make the Tournament. Honestly, how could anyone? Buzz's teams are always playing their best at the end of the year. The only possible exception was after DJ's injury in '08.

I don't expect everyone to offer mea culpas, but I hope this is a bit of a fun (if sarcastic) look back at how much this site can go over the cliff after a loss, and serves as a reminder in the future that one loss is just that. Bottom line, s**t happens, but that's no reason to dump on the team or the coaching staff because quite simply they know a lot more about what's going on and where they are trying to get than any of us ever will.

Let's finish with a look at Chiclets' season checklist:

(x) Non-conference near-miss against inferior opponent (Butler)
(x) Non-conference stinker to inferior opponent (UWGB)
(x) Non-conference loss on big stage convinces board MU not ready for Big East (Florida)
(X) Unmentionable conference loss (Villanova)
(X) Road Game we weren't supposed to win (Pitt)
(X) Late surge (Won 6 of last 7 in conference)
(X) Top-half Big East Finish (First is top half, right?)

[brewcity77]

I wasn't the only one who still believed in this team after the Green Bay loss. Here are a few other posters that still felt this team had the goods:

I'm really upset they lost but ill give them the benefit of the doubt and say it was just a bad/fluke game. We have to remember that three of the starters that started tonight were key parts to getting MU to 2 straight sweet sixteens. Ill give em a break on this one.

One game at a time approach, still quality players there that were the foundation of a lot of success.

okay, as a recent graduate of 2012, I have yet to see Buzz lose to a team that he had no business losing too.  This is probably the first loss to a non power conference team at home in Buzz's tenure, Crean lost many of these games.  Im not worried, it was just a matter of time before this team lost to a team they should have beaten.  Lets all move on, and focus on the Big East Schedule.

While I would (and in that thread, did) point to DePaul as a team we had no business losing to, flash was exactly right in that we just lost a game we should have won and that the Big East slate was more important than this game.

Again, let's consult Chiclet's list (maroon yet to occur):

Season checklist
(x) Non-conference near-miss against inferior opponent (provisional X--didn't happen this year, or Butler??)
(x) Non-conference stinker to inferior opponent (UWGB)
(x) Non-conference loss on big stage convinces board MU not ready for Big East (@Florida, MU Avenue crawls out of his doom bunker to concern troll)
( ) Unmentionable conference loss
( ) Road Game we weren't supposed to win
( ) Late surge
( ) Top-half Big East Finish

I amended that in the above post for you, but lab was dead on right here. That's why the checklist is the greatest thing in Scoop history. Because it seems to always bear out true.

One thing I was concerned with going into the season is that every player was stepping into a new role.

EVERYBODY is going to have to play better than last season for this team to be good.

With this said, I think it's reasonable to think that this could be an early season growing pain and this team could be playing well in March. The talent is there, but they are all going stepping up from role players/bench players to major contributors/bench players. It can be a little painful to watch.

There is reason for concern, but there is also reason for hope.

Guns was bringing it all night, and if you look back with 20/20 hindsight, he was right. Junior adapted to being a leader, Blue stepped into the leading man role, Lockett went from first option to glue guy, Gardner (on defense) and Otule (on offense) both displayed they could be more effective players at both ends.

I think Buzz hit it on the head in his post game show a few games ago. He said "The good news is that there is very little drop off in talent from the starters to the subs". "The bad news is that there is very little drop off in talent from the starters to the subs." The fact is that most team's starters are as good as or better than ours, but most team's second teams cannot compete with our second team. That is why we see some of the lesser teams play us close for a long time and still end up losing to us. As fans we look at our depth and think we are talented. However, we are missing a DJO or Crowder that can put the team on their back to a win.

As the season progressed, we saw Blue, Cadougan, Wilson, and Gardner all emerge as "get on my back" guys. But that depth was exactly what led to us being so good. Sure, teams like Rutgers, St. John's, and even lowly DePaul were able to compete with us for a time, but by the end of the game, after Green Bay we didn't lose a single game we had no business losing. And before anyone says Villanova, let's not forget Syracuse, Louisville, and Georgetown all also lost there.

Maybe it's because my first year at MU coincided with Buzz's first season, but I have no reason to doubt that there will be improvement going into and through the BE season.

MU has consistently disappointed in non-conference only to really turn it on at the end of the season. Are we as good as last year? Probably not. But there isn't a team in the country who can't lay an egg (pretty much everything that could go wrong did go wrong against UWGB) and every team has issues and weaknesses. While I agree that our strengths may not be as great as they were last year, it seems easy to highlight every weakness after a loss and conclude that we suck. This is not a good way to draw conclusions from a loss.

Learn from this. Improve. Hopefully the team now realizes that they will have to bring 100% to every game to win (as do 90% of teams in the NCAA).

I still think upper-middle of the conference and a tourament birth are very attain't I dimble. For those who think we finish in the bottom half and out of the tournament, I wonder what BE teams you put ahead of us?

I don't think I gave akmarq the credit he deserved when this post was made. If hindsight is 20/20, his foresight is 20/1.

When MU had the embarassing loss to ND State, they made the NCAA Tournament.

When MU had the embarassing loss to USF, they made the NCAA Tournament.

When MU had the embarassing loss to DePaul, they made the NCAA Tournament.

All is not lost.

The wise man studies history because it has a tendency to repeat itself.

Another stinker that MU barely escaped with over in-state inferior talent?  What is missing so far are stars to step up to pull it out at the end. Who will that be to turn around this season?  btw, we were bad last night...but apparently the slow tempo loss is a good thing as KPom only dropped us to #43.  MU is not that bad---just has to find its mojo.

http://www.crackedsidewalks.com/2010/11/marquette-nearly-loses-to-uw-milwaukee.html

One game does not a season make. UW lost when they went to the Resch, then beat Duke. The road is tough. That doesn't make Marquette bad.

There are dozens if not hundreds of other posts from those days on both sides. There were plenty more I could have put in here but unfortunately there is a limit to how big a post on MUScoop can be (learned that today). If you want to go back and see for yourself, I suggest you click here.

Now let's get back to enjoying what has become an annual ritual here at Marquette under Buzz Williams: OUR WARRIORS IN THE TOURNAMENT!

[Coleman]

How early this morning were you up working on this post?

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

Wow, bro.

[4everwarriors]

Don't you have a fire to put out!

[MUMBA]

I'm going to wait for the movie version of this post.

[tower912]

Well played, brew.  

[77ncaachamps]

You know it don't mean squat if they lose their game.

[lab_warrior]

Epic post.  Epic.  

[Cooby Snacks]

Lol this is awesome. Although I'm sure most of those folks are more than happy to be wrong.

[Tugg Speedman]

Epic post.  Epic.  

+1

This board is better when people are called on their statements ... Good and bad.

[MUeng]

Well, consider me impressed

[chapman]

I was hoping we'd get something good when the e-brag thread finally came.  That was awesome.

[tower912]

I will defend my statement by saying it was more to draw a rise from CBB than it was my opinion of where the team was going to be at the end of the year.  

[The Process]

Touch 'em all Brew - you deserve this!

[nathanziarek]

I wonder if you'd have done the same if you were wrong?

...but I'm happy you were right!

[Eldon]

I'm going to wait for the movie version of this post.

LMAO!  Gut laugh from me, thanks man.

[LloydMooresLegs]

Oootstanding!!!

[🏀]

So glad I didn't make this thread.

[Skatastrophy]

So glad I didn't make this thread.

Haha,  same!   

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Well researched. Well written. Well done.

[warriorchick]

What makes me think that Brew has been working on this post all season long?

So Brew, let me just ask this:

Why did you post this now and not after our season was completely over?  Did you want to post it before we crapped the bed in the tourney?

[moomoo]

I'm going to wait for the movie version of this post.

Classic!!!!

[Dawson Rental]

Well researched. Well written. Well done.

Taking brew's invitation to look back I found this post of yours.

Newsflash:

MU is going to win a couple games they should probably lose.

MU is going to lose a couple of games they should probably win.

This is college basketball.

I remember thinking at the time that your post pretty much summed things up nicely.

[Dawson Rental]

Well played, brew.  

This isn't even my favorite Brew post.  I really liked the one where when told by Keefe that he was probably in front of a computer in his mom's basement in his underwear, he said that actually he was in his own living room in his pj's.