St John's thoughts

[ChicosBailBonds]

I think some of you might want to read your own comments in the thread yesterday of the game to show exactly what I was talking about...the line is thin and the despair would have been tremendous.

Just read what was said

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=36822.125

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=36822.150

[denverMU]

...and just think what will be said if we lose our first game of the BEAST Tournament!  Let's keep supporting MU win or lose.

[mu03eng]

<gulp> I actually agree here.
Bigger days (in no particular order):
- Beating Kentucky to go to the Final Four
- Dwyane Wade signs to play for Marquette
- MU hires Buzz Williams
- MU hires Tom Crean
- MU hires Kevin O'Neill
- Appearing in the Final Four (despite the painful result)
- Beating Kentucky in 1994 to go to the Sweet 16 (MU becomes relevant again)
- Getting invited to the Big East
- Getting invited to C-USA
- Beating Syracuse in 2011 to make Sweet 16

I'm sure there are others.
Winning a share of the conference regular season title is a great accomplishment, but ultimately the BE deems its tournament winner as the "official" champion. MU has had, and will have, bigger and brighter days.

To be fair the bolded days are in hindsight not necessarily at the time.  I think you have to categories things like yesterday as an instant gradification moment with instant tangible results.  Yesterday was certainly a top 10 moment in MUBB history, winning a conference championship is a tough thing to do I don't care if we shared it with ~20% of the league 

[Pakuni]

To be fair the bolded days are in hindsight not necessarily at the time.  I think you have to categories things like yesterday as an instant gradification moment with instant tangible results.  Yesterday was certainly a top 10 moment in MUBB history, winning a conference championship is a tough thing to do I don't care if we shared it with ~20% of the league 

Are their occasions when one isn't using hindsight when reflecting on important occurrences in history?

I mean, sure, it's easy to say now that the election of Abraham Lincoln was an important event in American history, but that's just hindsight.

[mu03eng]

Are their occasions when one isn't using hindsight when reflecting on important occurrences in history?

I mean, sure, it's easy to say now that the election of Abraham Lincoln was an important event in American history, but that's just hindsight.

And what if Abraham Lincoln had lost the war?  Those events can be good or bad, sure they are turning points but in the context of the program they are inevitable.  Winning a conference championship has to have major significance in our history and count as something more than a footnote.  Otherwise conference championships don't matter, which would be a great thing because then we truly are a top 15 program which I was criticized for believing.

[Earl Tatum]

Where in the hell was "Ox"? The last 10 m inutes or so, that Obekpa ate him up around the boards.
He played like he wanted the game, as Ox was in a trance.
Hate to bring it up, When Newbill didn't come to MU, who took his schollie?

[AirPunches]

Jamil Wilson

[mu03eng]

Where in the hell was "Ox"? The last 10 m inutes or so, that Obekpa ate him up around the boards.
He played like he wanted the game, as Ox was in a trance.
Hate to bring it up, When Newbill didn't come to MU, who took his schollie?

Can we record this as the greatest overreaction in the history the internets overreactions ever times infinity?

And yes I'm being ironic.  However, Ox has one or two sub-par games and Newbill resurfaces?

[Dawson Rental]

<gulp> I actually agree here.
Bigger days (in no particular order):
- Beating Kentucky to go to the Final Four
- Dwyane Wade signs to play for Marquette
- MU hires Buzz Williams
- MU hires Tom Crean
- MU hires Kevin O'Neill
- Appearing in the Final Four (despite the painful result)
- Beating Kentucky in 1994 to go to the Sweet 16 (MU becomes relevant again)
- Getting invited to the Big East
- Getting invited to C-USA
- Beating Syracuse in 2011 to make Sweet 16

I'm sure there are others.
Winning a share of the conference regular season title is a great accomplishment, but ultimately the BE deems its tournament winner as the "official" champion. MU has had, and will have, bigger and brighter days.

I'd like to nominate Kevin O'Neill's first fall signing day.

[Dawson Rental]

Where in the hell was "Ox"? The last 10 m inutes or so, that Obekpa ate him up around the boards.
He played like he wanted the game, as Ox was in a trance.
Hate to bring it up, When Newbill didn't come to MU, who took his schollie?

MARQ_13 is correct, Jamil Wilson, not Davante.

[Pakuni]

And what if Abraham Lincoln had lost the war?  Those events can be good or bad, sure they are turning points but in the context of the program they are inevitable.

Yes. And that's exactly my point. When judging the historical importance of any event - whether it be in MU basketball or American history - it can only be done with the benefit of hindsight.
So to suggest the important events I listed don't really count because they're only important "in hindsight" kind of misses the entire point.

Winning a conference championship has to have major significance in our history and count as something more than a footnote.  

I think, then, that we're disagreeing over what makes something significant. You seem content to say an event is significant just because, in and of itself, regardless of what comes next, i.e. winning a conference championship is significant because it is.
I'm not saying that's entirely wrong, but suggesting that real significance is measured by not just the event, but its consequences. And those can only be judged in hindsight.
For example, hiring Kevin O'Neill was significant because he put MU back on the map and made the program relevant again. Without KO, there's no Great Midwest, no C-USA, no Big East. We're Detroit Mercy and Loyola. Tom Crean, Buzz Williams, Dwyane Wade, etc., don't come to Milwaukee.

A shared regular season conference title is a nice accomplishment, but it's not likely to alter much about MU basketball. Recruits won't come to Marquette because of it. Conference affiliation won't change because of it. TV deals won't change because of it. Buzz won't stay (or go) because of it. It's something really cool for the trophy case, but has no major consequence beyond that.
In fact, I'd argue that winning the conference title was the second most important event this week in the history of Marquette basketball.

[Goose]

Little Murs

KO's first recruiting class was a game changer and I agree. He signed a class few could have ever expected. They went from nowhere to S16 and put us back on the map.

[mu03eng]

Yes. And that's exactly my point. When judging the historical importance of any event - whether it be in MU basketball or American history - it can only be done with the benefit of hindsight.
So to suggest the important events I listed don't really count because they're only important "in hindsight" kind of misses the entire point.

I think, then, that we're disagreeing over what makes something significant. You seem content to say an event is significant just because, in and of itself, regardless of what comes next, i.e. winning a conference championship is significant because it is.
I'm not saying that's entirely wrong, but suggesting that real significance is measured by not just the event, but its consequences. And those can only be judged in hindsight.
For example, hiring Kevin O'Neill was significant because he put MU back on the map and made the program relevant again. Without KO, there's no Great Midwest, no C-USA, no Big East. We're Detroit Mercy and Loyola. Tom Crean, Buzz Williams, Dwyane Wade, etc., don't come to Milwaukee.

A shared regular season conference title is a nice accomplishment, but it's not likely to alter much about MU basketball. Recruits won't come to Marquette because of it. Conference affiliation won't change because of it. TV deals won't change because of it. Buzz won't stay (or go) because of it. It's something really cool for the trophy case, but has no major consequence beyond that.
In fact, I'd argue that winning the conference title was the second most important event this week in the history of Marquette basketball.

OK, I'm get where you are coming from and I guess I am on board.  I think I'm looking at things like this conference tourney in the sense of I remember where I was when MU won the CUSA conference tourney in 2003 or I remember being in the stadium for Novak's shot against ND.  Those are events within the life of a fan that have significace and can be recalled at reunions and bars years later.  The forming of the new Big East I think will be a top 10 event in Marquette history but it won't be "remembered".  I think maybe the distinction I'm searching for is this is a top 10 emotional event in Marquette history without being a top 10 event in total.  Or maybe I'm just the south end of a north bound horse.

[Lennys Tap]

<gulp> I actually agree here.
Bigger days (in no particular order):
- Beating Kentucky to go to the Final Four
- Dwyane Wade signs to play for Marquette
- MU hires Buzz Williams
- MU hires Tom Crean
- MU hires Kevin O'Neill
- Appearing in the Final Four (despite the painful result)
- Beating Kentucky in 1994 to go to the Sweet 16 (MU becomes relevant again)
- Getting invited to the Big East
- Getting invited to C-USA
- Beating Syracuse in 2011 to make Sweet 16

I'm sure there are others.
Winning a share of the conference regular season title is a great accomplishment, but ultimately the BE deems its tournament winner as the "official" champion. MU has had, and will have, bigger and brighter days.

Why not include the day Fr Wild bent our standards to let Wade in? Or the day Dwyane was conceived? Sorry, when it comes to accomplishments I'll stick to one's on the court. Winning the best basketball conference ever's (not this year but historically) regular season championship in its final year of existence (after never really coming close until last year and with a team picked to finish 7th) is an infinitely greater moment/accomplishment than being invited to play in a conference (wasn't DePaul invited also?) or the hiring of a coach.

[Blackhat]

Never in a million years thought this would be the team to win a championship.   Still can't believe it.  Buzz is doing something right to take these guys to this level!

[Pakuni]

Why not include the day Fr Wild bent our standards to let Wade in? Or the day Dwyane was conceived? Sorry, when it comes to accomplishments I'll stick to one's on the court.

Ummm, OK.
But my post was in response to "second biggest day," not accomplishment. Go back and read it again. More carefully, this time.

But, hey, if you believe that finishing in a three-way tie for an unofficial conference championship has more bearing on the history of Marquette basketball than the hiring of Buzz Williams or invite to the Big East, that's your prerogative.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Little Murs

KO's first recruiting class was a game changer and I agree. He signed a class few could have ever expected. They went from nowhere to S16 and put us back on the map.

Thank God Wisconsin sucked arse back then as it make it a lot easier.  History, as Pakuni and others have pointed out, is viewed in hindsight.  It was fortunate for us from a timing perspective that Wisconsin was still in their 54 year drought at the time.  If MU had to rebuild with Wisconsin playing at the level they have in the last 15 years, MU may not have gotten that class.  Timing worked out well for us.

[Lennys Tap]

Ummm, OK.
But my post was in response to "second biggest day," not accomplishment. Go back and read it again. More carefully, this time.

But, hey, if you believe that finishing in a three-way tie for an unofficial conference championship has more bearing on the history of Marquette basketball than the hiring of Buzz Williams or invite to the Big East, that's your prerogative.

What is unofficial about this conference championship? My original post said second biggest accomplishment, my second post said second biggest day. I understand your argument with the latter even if we disagree. As to the former, we'll be quite rightly hanging a banner to honor yesterday's accomplishment, and to me it's the 2nd most significant one we've hung in the last 36 years.

[Pakuni]

What is unofficial about this conference championship?

The official Big East Champion is the tourney winner.
That's not meant as a swipe at winning the regular season crown, but, to put it in hockey terms, it's the difference between winning the President's Trophy and the Stanley Cup.

and to me it's the 2nd most significant one we've hung in the last 36 years.

More significant than the 2005 Great Alaska Shootout? Surely you jest.

[CTWarrior]

As to the former, we'll be quite rightly hanging a banner to honor yesterday's accomplishment, and to me it's the 2nd most significant one we've hung in the last 36 years.

Does the last 36 years include or exclude the National Championship, which was 36 years ago?  Because I think this banner is behind 1977 and the 2003 Final Four.