Rove is leaving Bush

[ChicosBailBonds]

Can someone tell me how to post a new topic on this board?
Thanks.

In the upper right corner (a few inched down from the top) are 4 tabs....click the one that says "new topic"

[Chili]

At least Rove had an "exit strategy"!!! 

So does Bush...win! 

I asked this question a few weeks ago and no one answered it, what is winning? What really is the objective of this war?

And if you say stability I will laugh as this region has never been stable for any point in modern history.

I think people did answer it. 

No, you answered with the question of what is defeat. That is not an answer.

By the way, "define stable"...you may laugh but I would argue there are plenty of stable states in that region, including Israel...a democratic state.  Turkey, a muslim nation that is a democracy...stable.

Israel is a stable state under constant battery. If not for full pledged US support, they would be toast. We also allow them to have a nuclear program. Are we going to allow any other Middle East nation this power? Hell no.

Turkey is a fringe country and is a much a part of Europe as it is the Middle East.

In my opinion winning means the Iraq freely elected government can function as a government body to do it's job of running the state for the Iraqi people.  This includes protecting them (security), enforcing laws (police), collecting revenues (taxes, oil revenues, etc), providing goods and services (education, etc).  And doing this in a fashion where US troops can have a minimal presence (which I think will be years from now).  Right now, the government can't do that there....mostly because security isn't in place.  Get the security in place and it allows a lot more flexibility to get the business at hand started and on it's way. 

I believe Bush has defined winning on his terms on several occasions.

Let's put it this way, I believe if we "re-deploy", then winning is impossible. 

If you honestly believe a united Iraq will live in democracy within the next two decades please purchase my bridge in New York. You have tribes of people who have been at war for about 2,000 years. I doubt they will take onto democracy well when they have to take orders from a rival tribe.

And isn't this a war on terror in Iraq where we are fighting Al-Quida? Or do I have my wars mixed up?

I guess the fact the focus of this campaign has never had a clear direction could be the reason that there really is no chance for victory. If they finally get some direction with CLEAR objectives that troops know about (by the way, the two Marines and one Grunt I am friends who returned each with two tours agree that they had no idea what they were doing) what they are supposed to do, we can do something positive. But the best thing is to divide the country along tribal lines and keep them apart.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I see the Rove thing is about a Reagan electoral map in a nutshell -  your logic is very clear

Well, I was hopeful that you could actually answer a question but as has usually been the case, you are unable.  A simple request of who was the last uniter was all.  Nothing to hard.  I used Reagan as an example because people of all walks of life, Democrat, Republican, liberal, conservative, union, whatever voted for him....in overwhelming numbers.  That was the last uniter we had.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I have no idea how long it will take for them to live in "democracy".  Hell, it took the United States technically from 1776 until the War of 1812 to fully live in democracy so I shouldn't expect anything less there.  In fact it might take longer.

Is that a reason not to try? 


I remember when people used to care about others being slaughtered.  When did this change?  Why should we turn our backs on the folks of Rwanda, Darfur, Iraq under Hussein?  Why is it that the UN is so inept that we do not do what is morally right?  It sucks being the only super power in the world, but that's the deal we have.  Yes, we have to pick our battles and can't be everywhere...we've made that perfectly clear.  The middle east, due to the enormous politicial and economic stakes it possesses for this country is a place we need to be and to assert our influence.


And to ride along your coattails...no, we absolutely shouldn't let a Middle Eastern country have a nuclear weapon.  Exactly one of the reasons why we went into Iraq in the first damn place.  Exactly why we need to have a presence next door to the nutcase that is trying to acquire one right now.  The same nutcase that again today said the world can only succeed under one monotheist religion and it is the duty of all Muslims to make sure this happens.  Do you want this guy controlling such weapons?

I sure don't, but some people in this country think "if we just talk, if we just get to know them better" we can win them over.  Hah.  Based on what?  Based on what over the last 2 millenium of extremism is this possible or even conceivable?

Iraq's messy.  Too bad.  Pulling out would be an unmitigated disaster short term and an untold world changing affair long term in my opinion.  Is it the lesser of two evils...perhaps, but I believe we MUST STAY.

[Chili]

I have no idea how long it will take for them to live in "democracy".  Hell, it took the United States technically from 1776 until the War of 1812 to fully live in democracy so I shouldn't expect anything less there.  In fact it might take longer.

Is that a reason not to try? 

Sure, I have no problem if the Iraqi people want to try. I just really hate nation building as does any self respecting true Republican. That is a very socialist idea that I cannot believe you support. I do not believe that the United States should be involved in this as an independent agent.

I remember when people used to care about others being slaughtered.  When did this change?  Why should we turn our backs on the folks of Rwanda, Darfur, Iraq under Hussein?  Why is it that the UN is so inept that we do not do what is morally right?  It sucks being the only super power in the world, but that's the deal we have.  Yes, we have to pick our battles and can't be everywhere...we've made that perfectly clear.  The middle east, due to the enormous politicial and economic stakes it possesses for this country is a place we need to be and to assert our influence.

Wow, that is freaking socialism!

And to ride along your coattails...no, we absolutely shouldn't let a Middle Eastern country have a nuclear weapon.  Exactly one of the reasons why we went into Iraq in the first damn place.  Exactly why we need to have a presence next door to the nutcase that is trying to acquire one right now.  The same nutcase that again today said the world can only succeed under one monotheist religion and it is the duty of all Muslims to make sure this happens.  Do you want this guy controlling such weapons?

No. I am just saying the reason Israel is stable is because we control what happens to them. Also, they are not a tribal State like the rest of the Middle East.

I sure don't, but some people in this country think "if we just talk, if we just get to know them better" we can win them over.  Hah.  Based on what?  Based on what over the last 2 millenium of extremism is this possible or even conceivable?

Iraq's messy.  Too bad.  Pulling out would be an unmitigated disaster short term and an untold world changing affair long term in my opinion.  Is it the lesser of two evils...perhaps, but I believe we MUST STAY.

I believe we should stay too. But it is going to be like Europe and Korea. We might as well start building permanent bases right now. As soon as we do this we will stand a chance at bringing most people home.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I have no idea how long it will take for them to live in "democracy".  Hell, it took the United States technically from 1776 until the War of 1812 to fully live in democracy so I shouldn't expect anything less there.  In fact it might take longer.

Is that a reason not to try? 

Sure, I have no problem if the Iraqi people want to try. I just really hate nation building as does any self respecting true Republican. That is a very socialist idea that I cannot believe you support. I do not believe that the United States should be involved in this as an independent agent.

I remember when people used to care about others being slaughtered.  When did this change?  Why should we turn our backs on the folks of Rwanda, Darfur, Iraq under Hussein?  Why is it that the UN is so inept that we do not do what is morally right?  It sucks being the only super power in the world, but that's the deal we have.  Yes, we have to pick our battles and can't be everywhere...we've made that perfectly clear.  The middle east, due to the enormous politicial and economic stakes it possesses for this country is a place we need to be and to assert our influence.

Wow, that is freaking socialism!

And to ride along your coattails...no, we absolutely shouldn't let a Middle Eastern country have a nuclear weapon.  Exactly one of the reasons why we went into Iraq in the first damn place.  Exactly why we need to have a presence next door to the nutcase that is trying to acquire one right now.  The same nutcase that again today said the world can only succeed under one monotheist religion and it is the duty of all Muslims to make sure this happens.  Do you want this guy controlling such weapons?

No. I am just saying the reason Israel is stable is because we control what happens to them. Also, they are not a tribal State like the rest of the Middle East.

I sure don't, but some people in this country think "if we just talk, if we just get to know them better" we can win them over.  Hah.  Based on what?  Based on what over the last 2 millenium of extremism is this possible or even conceivable?

Iraq's messy.  Too bad.  Pulling out would be an unmitigated disaster short term and an untold world changing affair long term in my opinion.  Is it the lesser of two evils...perhaps, but I believe we MUST STAY.

I believe we should stay too. But it is going to be like Europe and Korea. We might as well start building permanent bases right now. As soon as we do this we will stand a chance at bringing most people home.

I hate nation building too, I think Bush does as well.  9/11 changed everything in his mind and the minds of many others.  Will it work, I have no idea.  Is it worth trying...hell yes.  Is 4 years enough time to give it a try....Gosh, we are really impatient if it is.




Socialism....sorry, but that is not the definition of socialism in any text I ever learned at MU or KU.  I don't see where that comes from in your mind.  Socialism is primarily an economic and social system (brought about by political means) that embodies the collective community supports one another internally through policies (i.e. nationalization of industry, etc).

Coming to aid of people that are slaughtered by a dictatorship or his armies is socialism?