Catholic 7 12th member

[Norm]

The point is, if we're only making this decision on basketball, VCU's claim to fame is two weeks in March....once. Are those two weeks enough to trump the other programs considering that the Rams have made just one second-weekend appearance in their school's history? After all, VCU gained a lot of notoriety from the Final Four run, but since 2005, VCU has missed the tournament as often as they've made it. Does that make VCU the wrong choice or the right choice? I don't know.

Well, then lets look at other sports too. VCU has a good men's soccer team that finished at #25 in College Soccer Poll and went to the NCAA tournament. Actually, St. Louis is a traditional soccer power, and finished ranked #12 this past season. Dayton's team, on the other hand, was not ranked and did not go to the tournament.

If you had a new conference of the C7 plus Butler, Xavier, Creighton, VCU and St. Louis, the league would have had 7 teams in the NCAA tournament this past fall:

Georgetown #2 (NCAA Runner Up)
Creighton #4 (Final Four)
Marquette #15
St. Louis #19
VCU #25
St. John's
Xavier

That's a pretty damn good soccer conference. In fact, that league would lead all conferences with bids with 7, followed by the ACC with 6 (including Pitt, Syracuse, ND and Louisville), Big Ten with 5, C-USA with 4, and the Pac 12, Big East (minus C7 and ACC bound teams), Mountain West, Big South, CAA, and Ivy League with 2 bids each.

So, again, I'd take both VCU and St. Louis over Dayton, especially with Xavier already in the mix.

[RTutton]

I was going to say the same thing.

Sweet #6 banner.

The entire VCU fan base hates it and wants it taken down. Last year we were a couple of missed free throws against Indiana away from that being reality, as there would have been a Sweet 16 banner instead.

[Eldon]

A few pages back somebody wrote "VCU is not a commuter school"  And then someone else compared VCU to Seton Hall on admissions data.

1)  Commuter school doesnt necessarily mean crappy academics/admissions, it simply relates to the % of student body that lives on campus (many of Temple's undergrads commute and arent stellar academically, but its grad/professional programs are all highly-ranked).  

According to the Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching, which is the gold standard on institutional information (it's the group that gives research institutions their research designations, e.g., RUVH, RUH, i.e., Research I, Research II, etc.), Seton Hall is classified as "primarily residential," while VCU is classified as "primarily nonresidential."  For a bit of perspective, this is the same classification as UW-Milwaukee and University of Ill-Chicago.  To be fair, there are only like four categories with respect to residential makeup of the school, but nonetheless, for what it's worth, VCU is more of a commuter school than Seton Hall (but by this measure, DePaul is also classified as "primarily non-residential)

2)  Another measure of "commutership" of a school is the number of national alumni chapters/clubs.  DePaul, for instance, has alum chapters/clubs in SoCal, DC, NYC, Denver, Arizona, Houston, Seattle, and on, while VCU only has alum chapters in VA, North Carolina, NYC, and Atlanta.

In any case, comparing VCU's acadmics/commutership to Seton or Depaul, etc., is futile.  The reason is that Seton and DePaul are already in the new conference, in other words, they are a "sunk cost" as it were. That is, compare yourselves to the new, potential members, not members who are already in.

However, I feel like all of this is a moot point.  Is VCU like UNLV--a mid-major turned perennial contender, or are they like GMason--a three year wonder?  EVEN IF VCU is like UNLV, should we still add them to the conference?

The answer depends on how you make the trade-off between academics and athletics. Do you want to build a national brand like the B10?  Those guys put market potential, academics, and school similarity first.  There is a reason they chose Maryland over Louisville to join the conference.  Or, do you think we should be like the BE of a couple years ago, a hodgepodge mix of institutions who are united around one goal--the best basketball games possible.

If you see the conference goal as being a smaller version of the B10 (ie, building a national identity/brand), then why not pick up Fordham (overlap with St Johns notwithstanding)?  If you really want a brand of solid academics and intitutional similarity, would you really turn down Louisville if they wanted to join (suppose for a minute that they relegated their football to FCS)?  

If you see the goal of the new conference as being a hodgepodege mix of schools solely built on bball, then yes, VCU makes sense.  But is national brand/identity and institutional similarity worth nothing?  Your division rivals are your peers to some extent.  They will be the businessmen and professional contacts with whom (avoiding the grammar police here) you will do the most networking.  If that's your goal, then PICK UP UCONN AND CINCY while they are in limbo if your sole goal is stellar bball.

We have to make a trade-off between best bball available and institutional similarity/academics. As I see it, SLU is a good balance.  They have market potential (TVs AND RECRUITING!), great academics, and while not great at basketball, they surely aren't Chicago State either.

[Eldon]

Also, I don't buy the 'we need VCU to shed the Catholic moniker'.

1) I like bulleted lists

2) I agree that being marketed as the Catholic league is not a good idea

3) However, Butler already helps us shed the "Catholic" moniker

4) The WCC has nine schools and I'm pretty sure that all are religious; yet nobody calls them the "religious league" or their tourney spot the "Jesus bid" or anything like that (though I admit that the WCC isn't talked about a lot)

[Avenue Commons]

I'm guilty of it as well, but it is unfair to "discount" VCU's Final 4 run. We know how difficult it is. They should be given credit for that accomplishment.

[RTutton]

Georgetown and Marquette in the Atlantic 10?  You must be visiting the Dayton forums.

I didn't mean that I thought it would actually happen...rather that we are seeking stability in a high level basketball conference. However that occurs is fine by me.

And a couple of corrections. The city of Richmond has a population of 210,000, not the metro area. The metro area (1.3 million) isn't much smaller than Milwaukee (1.5 million). The difference is that you guys have the Brewers, Packers and the Bucks, and we have VCU basketball. That allows us to dominate a very decent sized market.

Also, to me a commuter school implies that it's a place where the majority of students are locals who attended high school within 30 minutes or so of the area. I believe the number is 70%+ of students are from either DC Metro or Virginia Beach, both a 1.5-2 hour drive. Most of them live on campus their freshman or sophomore years, and then as upperclassmen, many move into the Fan/Museum District (similarish to Lincoln Park in Chicago) which borders the VCU campus. You can literally live off campus in The Fan and walk to class in 10 minutes. VCU's campus is not separated from the city in any way. It's not meant to be an enclave (like UR). Many would argue that it's not only one with the city, but it is the heartbeat of Richmond that has been essential to its rebirth.

[GGGG]

2)  Another measure of "commutership" of a school is the number of national alumni chapters/clubs.  DePaul, for instance, has alum chapters/clubs in SoCal, DC, NYC, Denver, Arizona, Houston, Seattle, and on, while VCU only has alum chapters in VA, North Carolina, NYC, and Atlanta.

That's actually not a good way of measuring it at all.  Many alumni programs don't put an emphasis on chapter development.

[martyconlonontherun]

2)  Another measure of "commutership" of a school is the number of national alumni chapters/clubs.  DePaul, for instance, has alum chapters/clubs in SoCal, DC, NYC, Denver, Arizona, Houston, Seattle, and on, while VCU only has alum chapters in VA, North Carolina, NYC, and Atlanta.

I don't think that is fair. Of course a private institution will have a greater national distribution. There is no instate tuition, so if I decided on going to a catholic school the cost doesn't matter as much. If I'm going to a public school I am most likely going to stay in state and save the dough. Just because its in state or close to home doesn't mean it's a commuter school.

I think parkside is a commuter school because they offered automocatic acceptance for most students and that students who went there weren't going for school but rather something to do after hs. Compare that to someone in Madison who ends up at Madison. That's a whole different story.

[Pretzel]

Hi ElDonBDon,

Thank you for the well thought out responses. I do appreciate it and have a couple counter-points:

1) Regarding the commuter stigma, I don't think it will weigh into the selection process. I do want to point out that VCU resides in a residential area within the city of Richmond (The Fan) that is surrounded by thousands of older townhouses which have been converted to apartments. A large majority of students live in this area and while technically not living on campus they still walk to class. I did it myself for 4 years. So I do understand the designation of commuter school but want to point out that most students walk to campus and do not drive.

2) Regarding academics, the comparison to Seton Hall was only to point out that a current BE7 school has the same admissions profile. This was to demonstrate that VCU wasn't lowering the academic standards of this new league. VCU also offers great post-graduate programs including a great medical school. More about ranked programs http://www.vcu.edu/ranking/

I don't believe the academic trade-off for basketball is as great as you're making it out and thus my comparison. I do believe the conference will be built on stellar basketball (no football) while maintaining high academic standards.

I do concede that SLU and probably most schools being considered have higher academic admittance standards for their students. No idea what the standards are for athletes and assume most try to get the best athletes available while adhering to NCAA academic standards.

3) A three year-wonder? Really?? I could run you through all the numbers again to discredit this statement but I won't. I'll only refer back to ESPN's ranking of Division I basketball programs over the last 50 years where VCU came in at 53 and SLU at 216 (Mason was 109).

4) Finally, I agree that SLU is a great university and would be a very good addition to the BE7. Excellent in academics and great potential in basketball. If anything, the C7 "shake up" has taught me more about schools (peers) in the A10 and has given me an appreciation for each. I honestly believe the BE7 would be missing out by not adding Dayton, SLU or Richmond. If I had a vote I would include 7 schools Xavier, Butler, VCU, Dayton, SLU, Richmond and Creighton and build a 14 team conference. This would also give an even East/West divide allowing for playing teams in your region twice a year and the other region once a year to reduce costs.

All are worthy candidates and leaving behind a VCU, SLU, Richmond or Dayton just doesn't make much sense.

[Litehouse]

This would also give an even East/West divide allowing for playing teams in your region twice a year and the other region once a year to reduce costs.

This is a deal breaker to me, if we're going to divisions this whole thing isn't worth it.  We shouldn't split off and leave behind millions of dollars with our current conference so we can play Dayton, Creighton, and SLU twice a year in the West Division and lose games against Georgetown, Villanova, and St. Johns.

[Pretzel]

This is a deal breaker to me, if we're going to divisions this whole thing isn't worth it.  We shouldn't split off and leave behind millions of dollars with our current conference so we can play Dayton, Creighton, and SLU twice a year in the West Division and lose games against Georgetown, Villanova, and St. Johns.

It's not a deal breaker, it's reality. Do you plan to play every team twice in a 12 team league for 22 conference games? There has to be some sort of division or round robin where you play certain teams only once a year. Geographic divides make since not only from a cost perspective but giving the fans the ability to see more games that are in driving distance. This is even more important for cost reductions regarding all the other Olympic sports.

[AirPunches]

This is a deal breaker to me, if we're going to divisions this whole thing isn't worth it.  We shouldn't split off and leave behind millions of dollars with our current conference so we can play Dayton, Creighton, and SLU twice a year in the West Division and lose games against Georgetown, Villanova, and St. Johns.

I'm okay with divisions for all sports except men's basketball. Season ticket sales would drop too much for MU having Gtown and the other Big East teams at the BMO only every other year. Divisions would be a nice deal for Butler and Xavier (and VCU if they are in) though.

[RTutton]

This is a deal breaker to me, if we're going to divisions this whole thing isn't worth it.  We shouldn't split off and leave behind millions of dollars with our current conference so we can play Dayton, Creighton, and SLU twice a year in the West Division and lose games against Georgetown, Villanova, and St. Johns.

I don't think it necessarily means divisions, it just means an even geographic balance. After thinking about it, if we were in the new conference, I would want a couple of primary opponents to play twice a year while rotating the other eight with home and homes (play four teams twice one season, the other four twice in the next season).

Edit: That's only eleven teams. I'm not sure how the scheduling would exactly work, but rotating the home/home opponents on a yearly basis would be fine.

[Aughnanure]

Hi ElDonBDon,

Thank you for the well thought out responses. I do appreciate it and have a couple counter-points:

1) Regarding the commuter stigma, I don't think it will weigh into the selection process. I do want to point out that VCU resides in a residential area within the city of Richmond (The Fan) that is surrounded by thousands of older townhouses which have been converted to apartments. A large majority of students live in this area and while technically not living on campus they still walk to class. I did it myself for 4 years. So I do understand the designation of commuter school but want to point out that most students walk to campus and do not drive.

2) Regarding academics, the comparison to Seton Hall was only to point out that a current BE7 school has the same admissions profile. This was to demonstrate that VCU wasn't lowering the academic standards of this new league. VCU also offers great post-graduate programs including a great medical school. More about ranked programs http://www.vcu.edu/ranking/

I don't believe the academic trade-off for basketball is as great as you're making it out and thus my comparison. I do believe the conference will be built on stellar basketball (no football) while maintaining high academic standards.

I do concede that SLU and probably most schools being considered have higher academic admittance standards for their students. No idea what the standards are for athletes and assume most try to get the best athletes available while adhering to NCAA academic standards.

3) A three year-wonder? Really?? I could run you through all the numbers again to discredit this statement but I won't. I'll only refer back to ESPN's ranking of Division I basketball programs over the last 50 years where VCU came in at 53 and SLU at 216.

4) Finally, I agree that SLU is a great university and would be a very good addition to the BE7. Excellent in academics and great potential in basketball. If anything, the C7 "shake up" has taught me more about schools (peers) in the A10 and has given me an appreciation for each. I honestly believe the BE7 would be missing out by not adding Dayton, SLU or Richmond. If I had a vote I would include 7 schools Xavier, Butler, VCU, Dayton, SLU, Richmond and Creighton and build a 14 team conference. This would also give an even East/West divide allowing for playing teams in your region twice a year and the other region once a year to reduce costs.

All are worthy candidates and leaving behind a VCU, SLU, Richmond or Dayton just doesn't make much sense.

2. Standards for athletes doesn't matter, but overall academic fit may. Is the drop off that bad? Probably not, you certainly are not a Memphis. But SLU is significantly more well-regarded - especially among these mostly private, religious schools. They also have an outstanding medical program. Not sure how much it matters -  but it does at least some as I think these schools want to create a consistent brand (and academic similarity is certainly part of that). That and public schools haven't exactly done well by us lately, so trust may be an issue (remember, it wasn;t that long ago UCONN was a bball-only too).

3. We are well aware of SLU's history. I don't know how or why ESPN felt the need to rank to the pint of #200, but I doubt there is much difference b/t 150 and 250(just like RPI). That ranking also did happen at a very convenient time for your program -  so just saying let's not take a random off-season (aka slow news) ESPN.com ranking and make too much of it. I don't think VCU is as far ahead as many of you think (which is fair as you're still riding the high of the Final 4).

4. Would rather keep this to 12 (at least initially), but if we are going to 16 it would be very disappointing if we didn't find a way for Gonzaga to get in. Also, I think and hope the C7 want the voting power at least for the short term - so adding an additional 7 seems problematic to our interests.

[Aughnanure]

But that's just it, if VCU gets an invite to the C7 conference, I don't think Shaka ever leaves. Remember Duke before coach K?  They were AWFUL. You can either be the coach that moves to a basketball school and be under constant pressure to preform, and given around 5 years to produce a championship before they start the talk about firing you, or you can be the coach who builds a dynasty like coach K. If VCU goes to the new conference, we would be able to double Shaka's salary now and give him a much larger recruiting budget. After building a new coliseum in Richmond for VCU games, there would be no incentive for him to leave.

My prediction, if VCU gets an invite, Shaka retires at VCU. If we don't get an invite and are left behind in the A-10, he's gone in 2-3 years if we are lucky.

You should never get your hopes up like that. Your coach WILL change. I don't know why Butler and VCU fans profess that their coach is the loyalest coach of all coaches, but they're not. Maybe you get lucky, but only time will tell - not a quote to ESPN. Pitt, Marquette, Xavier and much more have all lost their coaches and all had more success, were making more money, and were in better conferences. it scares me how much VCU's identity is being tied to Shaka Smart.

And Duke has far more history before K than VCU ever has.

[vcuboy22]

2. Standards for athletes doesn't matter, but overall academic fit may. Is the drop off that bad? Probably not, you certainly are not a Memphis. But SLU is significantly more well-regarded - especially among these mostly private, religious schools. They also have an outstanding medical program. Not sure how much it matters -  but it does at least some as I think these schools want to create a consistent brand (and academic similarity is certainly part of that). That and public schools haven't exactly done well by us lately, so trust may be an issue (remember, it wasn;t that long ago UCONN was a bball-only too).

3. We are well aware of SLU's history. I don't know how or why ESPN felt the need to rank to the pint of #200, but I doubt there is much difference b/t 150 and 250(just like RPI). That ranking also did happen at a very convenient time for your program -  so just saying let's not take a random off-season (aka slow news) ESPN.com ranking and make too much of it. I don't think VCU is as far ahead as many of you think (which is fair as you're still riding the high of the Final 4).

4. Would rather keep this to 12 (at least initially), but if we are going to 16 it would be very disappointing if we didn't find a way for Gonzaga to get in. Also, I think and hope the C7 want the voting power at least for the short term - so adding an additional 7 seems problematic to our interests.

So do u want VCU or SLU????

[Aughnanure]

SLU.

If we start moving to a 16 team conference (assuming no ND or Gonzaga), you and Wichita St. starting moving to the head of the class.

[muwarrior69]

It's not a deal breaker, it's reality. Do you plan to play every team twice in a 12 team league for 22 conference games? There has to be some sort of division or round robin where you play certain teams only once a year. Geographic divides make since not only from a cost perspective but giving the fans the ability to see more games that are in driving distance. This is even more important for cost reductions regarding all the other Olympic sports.

First off what other sports play as many games or more than the basketball teams (why I think Gonzaga should be considered)? Secondly, let the league and/or the network determine the 5 or 7 mirror games depending if you have a 16 or 18 game conference season like we do now.

[🏀]

4) Finally, I agree that SLU is a great university and would be a very good addition to the BE7. Excellent in academics and great potential in basketball. If anything, the C7 "shake up" has taught me more about schools (peers) in the A10 and has given me an appreciation for each. I honestly believe the BE7 would be missing out by not adding Dayton, SLU or Richmond. If I had a vote I would include 7 schools Xavier, Butler, VCU, Dayton, SLU, Richmond and Creighton and build a 14 team conference. This would also give an even East/West divide allowing for playing teams in your region twice a year and the other region once a year to reduce costs.

All are worthy candidates and leaving behind a VCU, SLU, Richmond or Dayton just doesn't make much sense.

Pretz, you put together a nice narrative but lost me on the bolded parts.

[vcuboy22]

SLU.

If we start moving to a 16 team conference (assuming no ND or Gonzaga), you and Wichita St. starting moving to the head of the class.

So tragic your is descion.... Sorry about that..... vcu>>>>slu

[vcuboy22]

Pretz, you put together a nice narrative but lost me on the bolded parts.

Personally the best teams are Butler Xavier and VCU.... Hands down

[foreverwarriors]

Personally the best teams are Butler Xavier and VCU.... Hands down

But you're not biased at all, right?

[Norm]

But you're not biased at all, right?

He may be, but he's right - the best A-10 teams are Xavier, Butler and VCU.

[RTutton]

We love VCUBoy22 for the energy he brings to our board, but sometimes he posts first and thinks later. Take it with a grain of salt.

[vcuboy22]

He may be, but he's right - the best A-10 teams are Xavier, Butler and VCU.

Haha yes that is what I mean