DJ Newbill

[forgetful]

Having "a better college career" and/or putting up better numbers is not the same thing as being a better basketball player. DJ Newbill is a nice player who's having a nice career so far and putting up some solid numbers, numbers that may even be better than Blue's but so what? Germantown's own Ben Averkamp has put up better numbers than Blue and having an outstanding career for Loyola. Does that mean MU really missed the boat on him and he'd be putting up 16ppg for MU this season? How about Keifer Sykes at GB? He has better numbers than Blue. Does that make him a better player? Sammy Mejia and Wesley Matthews had very similar college numbers. Does that mean they're equal players?

Why are you bringing logic into this discussion.  Message boards are for rampant speculation and wild personal beliefs.

[brewcity77]

Around August?  Just how cruel do you think Buzz is?  More like June.  He gave Newbill a couple of months to try and get a new gig.

They're both summer months

And can I echo the "Sultan, why do you bother?" comment? There is no point arguing with someone who doesn't even understand the premise. Ignore is truly your best friend. This site becomes much more enjoyable when you click that button. And imagine if everyone did it...

[real chili 83]

You made that comment before regarding a certain poster.  I was considering that when I commented on this poster's response to Sultan.  This dude (not Sultan), kept going on, and on, and on..... In a couple of threads.

[Hards Alumni]

Is this debate for real? 

DJ Newbill is fine, Blue is far superior.

[rocky_warrior]

Is this debate for real? 

DJ Newbill is fine, Blue is far superior.

Only "real" because several took Ner's bait and ran with it.  Other than that, no debate to see here.

[Hards Alumni]

Only "real" because several took Ner's bait and ran with it.  Other than that, no debate to see here.

Moral of the story: Don't feed the trolls... even if they don't know they are trolling.

[NersEllenson]

You made that comment before regarding a certain poster.  I was considering that when I commented on this poster's response to Sultan.  This dude (not Sultan), kept going on, and on, and on..... In a couple of threads.

Well there is no going on and on and on....if other posters...such as Sultan and Brew don't continue going on and on and on with their posts...and these are simply opinions being debated..point/counterpoint..so not sure what's to get offended about?

May want to check history a little and see how BrewCity discredited Gardner while championing Blue over and over and over in a debate with me and couldn't let it go....Brew also championed Otule's value over Gardner for quite awhile...the reality is, at the end of the day...Brew and Sultan are Blue's biggest backers....which is fine...but they refuse to acknowledge the reality of his MU performance..or performance benchmarked against other players....Blue was awful as a freshman....serviceable (at best) as a sophomore.....and is now playing at a caliber worthy of being a starter.  His scoring is up, yet the things he did well his first 2 years when he couldn't put the ball in the basket are way down - rebounding, assists, blocks.  Is he really this amazingly complete player?

Seems funny many want to point to how good Vander is this year, when the only thing that has improved is his scoring, yet they also want to discredit scoring as a stat, and say there are so many other things involved in evaluating a players value...see Lockett thread.  At the end of the day, your best players are your highest scorers.  Period.  You can have a glue guy of course and those are necessary on a team, but lets not act as if the glue guy makes/breaks a season.

[NersEllenson]

They're both summer months

And can I echo the "Sultan, why do you bother?" comment? There is no point arguing with someone who doesn't even understand the premise. Ignore is truly your best friend. This site becomes much more enjoyable when you click that button. And imagine if everyone did it...

The feeling is mutual Brew...btw...that avatar is a little weird for a grown man....

[Golden Avalanche]

They're both summer months

And can I echo the "Sultan, why do you bother?" comment? There is no point arguing with someone who doesn't even understand the premise. Ignore is truly your best friend. This site becomes much more enjoyable when you click that button. And imagine if everyone did it...

I'm imagining this site wouldn't exist.

[Badgerhater]

Comparing Newbill to Blue is utterly stupid and is the height of trolling.

It was never a choice of Blue or Newbill.  Blue was the centerpiece of that recruiting class.

The only possible comparison is Newbill vs. Wilson, because Newbill not enrolling cleared that roster spot for Wilson.

Wilson was indispensible last year.  We don't finish 2nd in the BE and get to the Sweet 16 without him.

If we are going to use the hindsight machine....then Jamail Jones should have been encouraged to find another school so Newbill could have stayed on the team.

[g0lden3agle]

Well there is no going on and on and on....if other posters...such as Sultan and Brew don't continue going on and on and on with their posts...and these are simply opinions being debated..point/counterpoint..so not sure what's to get offended about?

May want to check history a little and see how BrewCity discredited Gardner while championing Blue over and over and over in a debate with me and couldn't let it go....Brew also championed Otule's value over Gardner for quite awhile...the reality is, at the end of the day...Brew and Sultan are Blue's biggest backers....which is fine...but they refuse to acknowledge the reality of his MU performance..or performance benchmarked against other players....Blue was awful as a freshman....serviceable (at best) as a sophomore.....and is now playing at a caliber worthy of being a starter.  His scoring is up, yet the things he did well his first 2 years when he couldn't put the ball in the basket are way down - rebounding, assists, blocks.  Is he really this amazingly complete player?

Seems funny many want to point to how good Vander is this year, when the only thing that has improved is his scoring, yet they also want to discredit scoring as a stat, and say there are so many other things involved in evaluating a players value...see Lockett thread.  At the end of the day, your best players are your highest scorers.  Period.  You can have a glue guy of course and those are necessary on a team, but lets not act as if the glue guy makes/breaks a season.

A guy who’s finding his scoring touch isn't going to dish the ball as much as he used to.  There's a limited number of possessions in a game... his shooting percentage has gone up, resulting in a lower assist percentage. His overall offensive efficiency has gone up season to season, which would indicate that he is truly a more well-rounded offensive player.  

In terms of rebounding, that can be explained by the fact that 1) this is the best shooting % team he's been a part of here, and 2) there’s been more big men on the floor at any given point in time this season than the past two years.  Last year blue was called on to rebound more, and he did.  This year there isn’t that need anymore. There’s no need for your guards to crash the boards if you have bigger guys able to do that dirty work for you.  The guards would be better off getting back on D.

[bilsu]

I'll simply suggest that if Vander Blue were to announce he intends to transfer, programs far better than Penn State would be seeking his services.

In August there are not a lot of programs that have available scholarships. He was also an under the radar player.

[GGGG]

In August there are not a lot of programs that have available scholarships. He was also an under the radar player.

While Newbill announced he was transferring FROM USM in August, and TO Penn State less than a week later,  I think it is safe to say that the idea of transferring was in the works earlier than that.

[NersEllenson]

A guy who’s finding his scoring touch isn't going to dish the ball as much as he used to.  There's a limited number of possessions in a game... his shooting percentage has gone up, resulting in a lower assist percentage. His overall offensive efficiency has gone up season to season, which would indicate that he is truly a more well-rounded offensive player.  

In terms of rebounding, that can be explained by the fact that 1) this is the best shooting % team he's been a part of here, and 2) there’s been more big men on the floor at any given point in time this season than the past two years.  Last year blue was called on to rebound more, and he did.  This year there isn’t that need anymore. There’s no need for your guards to crash the boards if you have bigger guys able to do that dirty work for you.  The guards would be better off getting back on D.

Thank you for at least making an argument with some thought/rationale put into it....but when I see a player like Newbill scoring more points, out rebounding Vander at a 3 to 1 rate, out assisting Vander at a 2 to 1 rate...just makes me think the guy is at least as good as Vander..if not better.  To the bolded above....it would be tragic if Blue's offensive efficiency did not improve year over year...

[mu03eng]

Thank you for at least making an argument with some thought/rationale put into it....but when I see a player like Newbill scoring more points, out rebounding Vander at a 3 to 1 rate, out assisting Vander at a 2 to 1 rate...just makes me think the guy is at least as good as Vander..if not better.  To the bolded above....it would be tragic if Blue's offensive efficiency did not improve year over year...

Again, Newbill is the LONE SCORER on a bad basketball team that played one of the softest NC schedules this year.  Compare Newbill's supporting cast to Vander's supporting cast and you will see Vander doesn't have to/ isn't expected to rebound, score, or assist as much as Newbill has to.  Newbill doesn't have a Gardner, Wilson, Anderson, or Otule to clean up the boards and he certainly doesn't have JC or Wilson to provide the assists.

This is why offensive efficiency is such a better comparison statistically because it normalizes the team side of basketball for the most part.

The fact that you are debating Newbill is better than Vander tells me you aren't really interested in the debate, you just dislike Vander.  That's your call, but why not just say that and then move on a save everyone the inane debt?

[jmayer1]

Thank you for at least making an argument with some thought/rationale put into it....but when I see a player like Newbill scoring more points, out rebounding Vander at a 3 to 1 rate, out assisting Vander at a 2 to 1 rate...just makes me think the guy is at least as good as Vander..if not better.  To the bolded above....it would be tragic if Blue's offensive efficiency did not improve year over year...

Blue is scoring more points per 40 minutes with a higher efficieny than Newbill, but don't let facts get in the way.

Do you think Lockett is a better player than Blue? His stats for a bottom-feeder team last year are comparable to Vander and DJ's stats this year.

[MerrittsMustache]

Thank you for at least making an argument with some thought/rationale put into it....but when I see a player like Newbill scoring more points, out rebounding Vander at a 3 to 1 rate, out assisting Vander at a 2 to 1 rate...just makes me think the guy is at least as good as Vander..if not better.  To the bolded above....it would be tragic if Blue's offensive efficiency did not improve year over year...

Jake Thomas put up better numbers than Vander during his freshman and soph seasons. By your logic, one could argue that he's a better player than Vander.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I blame Buzz.

Obviously guys with less talent (than Blue) have gone to other schools and have become better players.

Buzz needs to be held accountable!

[Lennys Tap]

This is an interesting argument/discussion.

On one hand, I agree that on bad teams somebody has to get the points, rebounds, etc. (see Trent Lockett)

OTOH, I would be interested in how Vander and Newbill stack up according to offensive efficiency, which should mitigate some of the bad team/good numbers advantage Newbill has.

So, what say the sabermatricians?

[hairy worthen]

This could be a top 5 in the most ridiculous threads ever. Which means it will probably go 20 pages.

Newbill and his Philly coach are gone, why does Ners care other than to take another shot at Blue. It was not a case of Vb or Newbill anyway, it would have been Newbill or Wilson.

[real chili 83]

I blame Buzz.

Obviously guys with less talent (than Blue) have gone to other schools and have become better players.

Buzz needs to be held accountable!

I also blame LW, cause he's a domer.  And FP.  And Cottingham.  And Scott Walker.  And the fiscal cliff.  And the Mayan calendar.  And...

Guns, I am with you.

Didn't anyone read Rocky's sage advice on some of the wisdom being put forward on this thread?  I, for one, am going to follow Brew's advice too.  Click.

[ATL MU Warrior]

I'm imagining this site wouldn't exist.

+1000

[ATL MU Warrior]

In terms of rebounding, that can be explained by the fact that 1) this is the best shooting % team he's been a part of here, and 2) there’s been more big men on the floor at any given point in time this season than the past two years.  Last year blue was called on to rebound more, and he did.  This year there isn’t that need anymore. There’s no need for your guards to crash the boards if you have bigger guys able to do that dirty work for you.  The guards would be better off getting back on D.

WHAT!?!?  How can this be true?  I've watched us clank shot after shot after shot.  Is it because we are relying less on 3-point shooting overall and more on our interior game?  The impression I get (and has been discussed ad nauseum here) is that we can't shoot for you-know-what.

[Silkk the Shaka]

This is an interesting argument/discussion.

On one hand, I agree that on bad teams somebody has to get the points, rebounds, etc. (see Trent Lockett)

OTOH, I would be interested in how Vander and Newbill stack up according to offensive efficiency, which should mitigate some of the bad team/good numbers advantage Newbill has.

So, what say the sabermatricians?

According to bama's Value Add, Blue is the #1224 player in the country this year, Newbill is #3050.

According to offensive efficiency, Blue is currently at 100.4 and Newbill is at 97.1

Blue's ORtg trend: 89.1, 95.6, 100.4
Newbill: 113.0, 97.1


Complete tangent but something I thought interesting nonetheless when compared to Blue is McNeal's ORtg trend: 87.7, 93.7, 104.4, 108.6

[NersEllenson]

For the record...I don't dislike Vander....but I'm not seeing his production/performance as a freshman and sophomore through Gold colored glasses.  He's improved TREMENDOUSLY over his freshman and sophomore years.  Quite frankly, I'm startled and thrilled by the level of his improvement.  He's turned himself into a quality, Big East, guard - and I had serious doubts about his ability to do so after watching his first 2 years.  So kudos to Vander for putting in the work and becoming a good player.