Author Topic: For our pro-war friends on the board (Read 16209 times)

mviale · « **on:** July 27, 2007, 06:26:33 PM »

Good read about vietnam-iraq
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sen-mike-gravel/dying-in-vain-in-vietnam-_b_58091.html

Murffieus · « **Reply #1 on:** July 28, 2007, 07:08:32 AM »

Gravel is an idiot----even his fellow presidential candidates laugh and bite their lip when he speaks at the debates.

But anyway----there are a lot of differences between Vietnam back then and Iraq now. Gravel says that back in 1971 people were saying better to fight them there than to have to fight them here----that was NEVER an issue back then (never even mentioned)-----the issue back then was the domino effect in SE Asia. (was it coincidence that as a result of the fight we put up there that communism which had spread quite a bit prior to Vietnam never spread even one inch after?

Another difference is that the 58,000 deaths were conscripted soldiers not volunteers as all of the 3,600 dead soldiers are in Iraq. Back then there were weekly huge demonstations to pull out of vietnam-----I don't even recall one large demonstration on Iraq in the last 4 years, which shows the public isn't as upset about this war as the media and polls portray.

In Vietnam (despite Gravel's lie)----no one thoght the vietcong were going to followup with hits on America------but i don't see how any sane person can deny that should we lose in Iraq that this will enbolden and stregthen Al Quida to the extent that they WILL followup here in the USA with attacks (Bin Laden aqlready told Zarqawi to prepare to do so according to intercepted messages)-----and in this day and age of concentrated population centers and WMD availability (dirty bombs or whatever) that is completely unacceptable.

One thing that Gravel doesn't mention and that is the huge ethnic cleansing that went on in Vietnam after we left (millions slaughtered)-----there is reason to belive it would be exceedingly worse-----were we to leave Iraq prematurely!

mviale · « **Reply #2 on:** July 28, 2007, 09:28:42 AM »

Quote from: Murffieus on July 28, 2007, 07:08:32 AM

One thing that Gravel doesn't mention and that is the huge ethnic cleansing that went on in Vietnam after we left (millions slaughtered)-----there is reason to belive it would be exceedingly worse-----were we to leave Iraq prematurely!

Please site your reference to this slaughter.

Murffieus · « **Reply #3 on:** July 28, 2007, 09:59:32 AM »

Most of the "slaughter" or ethnic cleansing took part by the communist party in Cambodia in 1975 as a direct result of the withdrawl of American Forces----but a great deal of slaughter was commited by the vietcong on the supporters of American forces in Vietnam in the post Vietnam war as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_Rouge

mviale · « **Reply #4 on:** July 28, 2007, 03:40:31 PM »

Thank goodness that the vietnamese conquered the Khmer rouge as our involvement in Cambodia led the khmer to power.

Murffieus · « **Reply #5 on:** July 28, 2007, 04:25:25 PM »

Mvaile----quit drawing things out of thin air when you say that "US involvement in Cambodia" led the Khmer Rouge to power"----there is no evidence of that-----the link I provide above clearly shows that the North Vietnames sponsored the Khmer takeover of Cambodia----aided by the US Congress in 1973 which cut off all aid to Cambodia!

BTW----whose side are you on anyway?----seems that everytime there is a conflict you blame America and cheer for the otherside!

ChicosBailBonds · « **Reply #6 on:** July 28, 2007, 09:24:21 PM »

I'm on the road right now with my blackberry so limited search functionality.

However, an estimated 2.5 millio were killed in Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia after we left.

After that idiot John Kerry made his stupid statement last week that there was no bloodbath (I posted the link) there were several stories following that day and the day after asking what dimension of reality Kerry was in.

Millions dead, an estimated 800,000 in Vietnam alone where people checked into the camps and didn't check out.

Even Barak Obama hints a genocide is coming...of course he also says preventing a genocide isn't worth....how sad.

PS. No one is "pro-war". Sometimes it is necessary

jutaw22mu · « **Reply #7 on:** July 29, 2007, 10:18:12 AM »

i was wondering when someone was going to bring this up. to even attempt to compare iraq with vietnam is ridiculous. isnt gravel the guy from alaska who went off during the first dem debate and everyone laughed at him. as a matter of fact i think i watched his monologue on youtube.

mviale · « **Reply #8 on:** July 29, 2007, 03:15:00 PM »

Chicos & Murf - where is your reference to millions slaughtered in vietnam after we left?

77ncaachamps · « **Reply #9 on:** July 29, 2007, 07:41:18 PM »

Quote from: Murffieus on July 28, 2007, 07:08:32 AM

Gravel is an idiot----even his fellow presidential candidates laugh and bite their lip when he speaks at the debates.

But anyway----there are a lot of differences between Vietnam back then and Iraq now. Gravel says that back in 1971 people were saying better to fight them there than to have to fight them here----that was NEVER an issue back then (never even mentioned)-----the issue back then was the domino effect in SE Asia. (was it coincidence that as a result of the fight we put up there that communism which had spread quite a bit prior to Vietnam never spread even one inch after?

Domino Effect...existed in Asia and exists in Iraq.

If Iraq is politically unstable, those militant Islamic yahoos will begin to run amok within the middle east and threaten stable, U.S.-friendly countries and *gasp* Israel.

Murffieus · « **Reply #10 on:** July 29, 2007, 07:50:23 PM »

Mvaile----You didn't read the link i provided----so i will provide it again. Scroll down to the sub headline CAMBODIA GENOCIDE and Number of Deaths------the consensus is 2,000,000 lost their lives as a direct result of our leaving Vietnam------what's the difference if the genocide was in Vietnam and Cambodia ( a death is a death)----most of them were in Cambodia.

The important thing is that the khmer rouge came to power as a direct result of 3 things ------two of which reflect on the Dem congress of the time:

A) the US congress cut off aid to the Cambodian Government in 1973
B) about that time North Vietnam armed the Khmer Rouge
C) we left Vietnam in 1975 which gave the khmer rouge the green light to move in

Having been driven out of Vietnam by the congress is one of the things that gives radical islam the idea that they can drive us out of Iraq and then Afghanistan
(draw out the war and the American people will lose their will and congress will follow and legislate a surrender/pullout)

ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_Rouge

Mayor McCheese · « **Reply #11 on:** July 30, 2007, 04:01:55 PM »

Well I'll throw in my few cents on this topic of the slaughter in Vietnam after we left. My cited source is my Foreign Relations Textbook in my "History of US Foreign Relations" course I took in college (us History Majors get to take fun classes like this, after classes like this and the book "Overthrow" by Stephen Kinzer, you look at US invasions in a different light) .... however this is what I understand

most of the people killed in Vietnam, and those that are still being slaughtered in Vietnam and Cambodia are that of the group that we call the Hmong. These people helped America during the war, being guranteed by the American soldiers and our govt that after the war, whether win or lose, we would support them. We left, said screw you to the Hmong people, and to this day they hide in the woods, not allowed to participate in everyday life in these countries, do to the governments over there declaring them "traitors".

From what I got out of the book written by Kinzer is that America goes to war for personal gain, not to free countries like our politicians preach. Iraq is no difference, we went over there for personal gain, whatever it may be, cough oil cough, and now we are, in plain words f***ed... no matter what we do, you don't want to leave, but to stay there is pointless, it won't ever end, it is impossible to kill an idea, sorry, it is.

mviale · « **Reply #12 on:** July 30, 2007, 10:42:20 PM »

Murf - so there was no slaughter in Vietnam after we left - gotcha

Murffieus · « **Reply #13 on:** July 31, 2007, 08:29:01 AM »

mviale-----the Major above says that his history books states that the Hmong were slaughtered in both Vietnam and Cambodia as a direct result of our leaving Vietnam-----the site i gave you says it came to 2 million people with most of the deaths occurring in Cambodia, but as the Mayor points out in Vietnam as well.

Reread my link and also the Mayor's post above!

Murffieus · « **Reply #14 on:** July 31, 2007, 08:34:28 AM »

Mayor----of course we only go to war to protect our interests----how else are you going to gain public support for war?

As far as Iraq----I'm sure oil is part of it-----we're not there to steal it as Michael Moore says----we're there to make sure it continues to flow and at a reasonable price. Radical Islam ever gets a hold of Saudi/Iraq/Kuwait oil----the USA economy will completely fold with all the social and economc hardships that would entail!

mviale · « **Reply #15 on:** August 01, 2007, 02:37:18 PM »

so let me get this right Murf - you think we should put out every fire in the world such as cambodia? Dont you think our money is better spent at home

Murffieus · « **Reply #16 on:** August 02, 2007, 07:44:36 AM »

If not us who?

The Vietnam war was not fought to win---it was fought to contain. The moral of that story is you win things kike the Khmer Rouge atrocities and genocide in Cambodia wouldn't have happened. Remember too that The Dem congress pulled the financial support from the Gambodian Gov't in 1973----so they had nothing to defend themselves with.

But the genocide and ethnic cleansing in Cambodia after we pulled out of the area in 1975----is a very good model of what would happen today in Iraq should we leave prematurely!

mviale · « **Reply #17 on:** August 02, 2007, 01:36:03 PM »

The Vietnamese took care of Khymer Rouge in 1979. Just like the ME will eventually manage Iraq.

Murffieus · « **Reply #18 on:** August 02, 2007, 02:18:06 PM »

The situation in Iraq is far different than SE Asia in 1975----you have shia supported by an ambitious Iran, you have the sunnis supported by SA, and you have the Kurds on their own against Turkey----then too there is Al Quida. All this with massive armaments available to all these players. Much more complicated than SE Asia in 1975!

We leave and the likely sceanario is:

Shias and sunnis escalate a civil war with support as listed above----meanwhile Al Quida does everything (as now) to escalate that civil war----also Turkey invades Kurdish Iraq. When one side or the other starts overwhelming the other, then Iran physically comes to the Sunnis aid and Iran physically come to the aid of the Shia. Al Quida carves out a section of Iraq and has a sanctuary to plan attacks, train, and recruit from.

The whole thing becomes a huge mess with massive ethnic cleansing ala Yugoslavia 10 -15 years ago. Millions get killed----the price of oil goes sky high----and our economy goes into recession/depression----perhaps mviale loses his job!!

ChicosBailBonds · « **Reply #19 on:** August 02, 2007, 10:12:16 PM »

Quote from: mviale on July 30, 2007, 10:42:20 PM

Murf - so there was no slaughter in Vietnam after we left - gotcha

HORSE$hit MVIALE. Absolute horse$hit on your part and Kerry's. I call hundreds of thousands a SLAUGHTER. I call more than a MILLION boat people fleeing for their lives with untold thousands dying at sea a slaughter.

Good God.

Kerry haa ANY credibility at all with his utterly moronic statements on this. Just ridiculous. Several articles, as I mentioned, just in the last week. I also suggest reading many of the books written about the post war world of Vietnam that focuses on Cambodia, Laos and Vietnam. Sure, Cambodia was the worst slaughter, but Vietnam saw 100's of thousands die and for this idiot to say otherwise flies in the face of the dead. Pathetic.

Wall Street Journal - 7-26-2007

"....after "the liberation of Vietnam" for which John Kerry fought so diligently, 1 million Vietnamese were imprisoned without formal charges or trials, some for as long as 17 years. 165,000 perished in "re-education camps," a pseudonym for tropical gulag; untold thousands were tortured; tens of thousands of refugees were relocated to collective farms in malaria-infested jungles. This only scratches the surface of the suffering and death inflicted on the freedom-loving South Vietnamese by those Sen. Kerry lionizes today. "

mviale · « **Reply #20 on:** August 03, 2007, 08:16:43 AM »

I am sorry chicos, but your cartoon doesnt have the weight of a legitimate news source. Please let me know where it is referenced that millions were slaughtered in vietnam in after the war in vietnam. It is a key fact as several of your types have claimed a similar slaughter will occur after the US leaves Iraq.

Please educate me.

Murffieus · « **Reply #21 on:** August 03, 2007, 02:23:19 PM »

mvaile------millions did die in Vietnam and Cambodia as a direct result of our out of SE Asia in 1975. But the ethnic situation in Iraq is more like Yugoslavia where after Tito died, ethnic cleansing killed millions there as well.

I hope you don't believe the shia and sunni kiss and make up after we leave prematurely----typical liberal/leftist stance----act and hope for the best, but ignore the consequences!

mviale · « **Reply #22 on:** August 03, 2007, 07:08:41 PM »

I think it will be painful, but not any worse than the hell hole in Iraq right now.

Murffieus · « **Reply #23 on:** August 03, 2007, 08:34:03 PM »

mvaile----you have to be kidding- or deceiving yourself or both---the only thing that prevents the lid from blowing off the pot is our presence----Saddam kept the lid on the pot with excessive brutality----we're doing it with the new strategy of attacking and occupying neighborhood by neighborhood (notice the improvement).

The shia and sunnis hate each other----the only opportunity for an accomodation without bloodshed is that both see the oppotunity of democracy/free enterprise within the framework of a constitutional government as the mutually best way to go!

ChicosBailBonds · « **Reply #24 on:** August 03, 2007, 09:33:52 PM »

Not any worse than now? Good God you are delusional.

What remains not in question is that John Kerry's comments that only a few thousand would die was tragically wrong. He remains a collosal idiot that the American people told to get f'd. The guy should be hanging from a rope for treason

ChicosBailBonds · « **Reply #25 on:** August 04, 2007, 06:02:52 AM »

The cartoon quite clearly states Cambodia AND Vietnam, not just Vietnam.

The photographs are from Vietnam and purge of humans at the re-education camps.

Kerry was wrong...dead wrong.

mviale · « **Reply #26 on:** August 04, 2007, 09:12:11 AM »

Chicos - you are hilarious

Murffieus · « **Reply #27 on:** August 04, 2007, 10:03:49 AM »

Kerry has lost all credibility----why do you think he pulled out of the presidential race?

ChicosBailBonds · « **Reply #28 on:** August 05, 2007, 08:53:58 PM »

Quote from: mviale on August 04, 2007, 09:12:11 AM

Chicos - you are hilarious

Why thank you...I notice you still haven't responded to the pictures, the WSJ article, etc....Kerry is a joke.

ChicosBailBonds · « **Reply #29 on:** August 05, 2007, 09:34:34 PM »

I'd like to invite John Kerry to come out here to speak in Orange County, and give us his remarks again in a little section of the O.C. called "Little Saigon". He can tell his theories to those people, many of them former boat people that came to the United States and many who lost loved ones as they fled.

He is utterly laughable and disgusting at the same time.

Mviale...you want more sources...in 1986 the San Diego Union Tribune did a story citing the UN Refugee Commission that at least 250,000 died on the seas as the boat people fled...IN VIETNAM. Additionally, at LEAST 175,000 "prisoners" at the re-education camps were never accounted for....IN VIETNAM.

This doesn't even begin to address the 1,000,000+ that suffered but survived the re-education camps.

These re-education camps were basically concentration camps...they would BEG for something like Gitmo compared to what they got. His video makes it sound like the re-education camps were some kind of Summer camp...wow how much has the Vietnamese gov't paid this guy the last 40 years. It's incredible.

And of course then there was the 2.3 million dead in Cambodia.

John Kerry...America's traitor and class 1 a-hole...oh and Democrat nominee for President in 2004. Reporting for duty. What a guy.

mviale · « **Reply #30 on:** August 06, 2007, 07:01:23 PM »

hogwash. where is the link?

ChicosBailBonds · « **Reply #31 on:** August 06, 2007, 07:15:25 PM »

Hogwash...sorry, 1986 they didn't have the links posted. Go to the San Diego Tribune archives...I've given you that much.

I've given you pictures. I've given you Wall Street Journal stories. What the hell else do you want? Go to Little Saigon if you must. Spend the entire week last week (as I did) with 4 Vietnam Vets that were losing their minds about Kerry (2 of those guys diehard Democrats).

He is a fraud, a traitor, an idiot (IQ, grades, and just plain being Kerry) and flat out in another sphere on this issue.

As are you apparently.

ChicosBailBonds · « **Reply #32 on:** August 06, 2007, 07:37:35 PM »

Mviale, since you are prochoice should we start a thread that says "for our pro-baby murder friends on the board"?

By the way, the San Diego Union Tribune article is from July 20, 1986....it references the UN Refugee Commission from that same week.

Links for you on John Kerry

John Kerry rewriting history http://www.rep-am.com/menu/subsind/index.html?taToken=b4388a0f0ad9f906df03cf54e2dfff80

Vietnam Boat People http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boat_people

It Didn't Happen (Wall Street Journal) http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110010382

Historical Atlas of the 20th Century says 165,000 dead in camps alone

http://www.boulderweekly.com/thedanishplan.html

And on and on....the guy is a JOKE!

thekahoona · « **Reply #33 on:** August 06, 2007, 08:33:56 PM »

not to get into this...

but google, properly used, is a fine tool:

Vietnamese (post-war) "democide:"
http://freedomspeace.blogspot.com/2007/07/post-vietnam-war-bloodbath.html

i know, you don't like that website...how about following his first link to an outside source:
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP6.HTM

Cambodian "genocide:"
http://www.mekong.net/cambodia/toll.htm

ChicosBailBonds · « **Reply #34 on:** August 06, 2007, 08:45:51 PM »

RB, how are you and your brother's family doing? I assume he is out of Iraq for good but not certain.

mviale · « **Reply #35 on:** August 06, 2007, 09:11:11 PM »

CNN missed this amazing!

ChicosBailBonds · « **Reply #36 on:** August 06, 2007, 10:11:13 PM »

Quote from: mviale on August 06, 2007, 09:11:11 PM

CNN missed this amazing!

The Clinton News Network missing it...hardly amazing, more like par for the course. Hell, how long did it take Jack McCafferty over there from blaming the Minnesota bridge collapse was Bush Fault...was it 10 minutes of 15 minutes it took him?

mviale · « **Reply #37 on:** August 06, 2007, 10:28:26 PM »

Off topic again

mviale · « **Reply #38 on:** August 06, 2007, 10:40:20 PM »

Let me help you guys out as you have changed history above. Millions were not slaughtered in vietnam after we left. Actually, the causualties dropped dramatically on the south and northern sides. Millions FLED vietnam as you may remember in the late 70's, our public schools made us familiar with names like quan or nguyen. The vietnamese eventually became a very stable force in american cities that were suffering from middle class white flight in the 70's. They also produced some very good American citizens and we could probably handle the same from Iraq if we decided to leave.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1243686.stm

ChicosBailBonds · « **Reply #39 on:** August 06, 2007, 11:33:36 PM »

Talk about CHANGING the damn topic...congratulations.

John Kerry said it was not a bloodbath...that was the topic. We said 100's of thousands were killed in Vietnam and millions in CAMBODIA. We were right. John Kerry was wrong.

Unless in John Kerry's world 100's of thousands slaughtered is not a blood bath. Then again, this is the same man that looked Dick Cavat in the eyes on the national television and said only a few thousand would die at the most (as if it that were no big deal). He was wrong, dead wrong.

THAT WAS THE DAMN TOPIC mviale!! Kerry was wrong, disgustingly wrong and 100's of thousands died in Vietnam and millions in Cambodia....all AFTER WE LEFT.

And now the far left libs want to make the same mistake all the while preaching to everyone else about "not making the mistakes of the past"...wow...the balls. Pot meet kettle!!

thekahoona · « **Reply #40 on:** August 07, 2007, 07:29:32 AM »

hey chicos...

all is well. my brother came back in last year and had a lot of interesting stories to tell, and interestingly enough, not a single one of them sounded like pvt. beauchamp's...

i'll give you a buzz this week and we'll catch up. i was just out in calif. hangin' out on the beach.

mviale · « **Reply #41 on:** August 07, 2007, 07:07:25 PM »

who was talking about Cambodia - we didnt fight in cambodia.

Murffieus · « **Reply #42 on:** August 07, 2007, 08:29:02 PM »

Sure we did----we bombed the hell out of the vietcong in Cambodia-------when the Dem controlled congress pulled its financial support in 1973 for the Cambodian governmet it gave the Khmer Rouge the opportunity with North Vietnam support to move in an ethnically cleanse the country (2 million lives lost)!

Then in 1979 North Vietnam turned on the Khmer Rouge and pushed them out of Cambodia (more deaths)

ChicosBailBonds · « **Reply #43 on:** August 07, 2007, 08:30:00 PM »

Quote from: mviale on August 07, 2007, 07:07:25 PM

who was talking about Cambodia - we didnt fight in cambodia.

That's funny....John Kerry said he was in Cambodia on Christmas Eve during the war.

ChicosBailBonds · « **Reply #44 on:** August 08, 2007, 12:53:24 PM »

who was talking about Cambodia - we didnt fight in cambodia.
- mviale

mviale, a brush up on history for you

US Dept of State http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/2732.htm

"In April 1970, U.S. and South Vietnamese forces entered Cambodia in a campaign aimed at destroying NVA/VC base areas. Although a considerable quantity of equipment was seized or destroyed, NVA/VC forces proved elusive and moved deeper into Cambodia. NVA/VC units overran many Cambodian Army positions while the Khmer Rouge expanded their smallscale attacks on lines of communication."

You may remember the Kent State shootings? They were a result of the Cambodian incursion that Nixon announced.

The Kent State shootings, also known as the May 4 massacre or Kent State massacre, occurred at Kent State University in the city of Kent, Ohio, and involved the shooting of students by members of the Ohio National Guard on Monday, May 4, 1970. Four students were killed and nine others wounded, one of whom suffered permanent paralysis.[1]

Some of the students who were shot were protesting the American invasion of Cambodia which President Richard Nixon announced in a television address on April 30. However, other students who were shot were merely walking nearby or observing the protest at a distance. [2][3]

There was a significant national response to the shootings: hundreds of universities, colleges, high schools, and even middle schools closed throughout the United States due to a student strike of eight million students, and the event further divided the country along political lines.

mviale · « **Reply #45 on:** August 08, 2007, 01:29:33 PM »

We were unofficially in cambodia. By 1978, the new Vietnam was able to do good things in the region such as taking out the evil kymer rouge. Hell, the Vietnamese became good trading partners soon after that. Lets move on with Iraq, so they can become most valued trading partners in the near future too. As long as we dont start an unofficial war in Iran, we should be good.

ChicosBailBonds · « **Reply #46 on:** August 08, 2007, 02:56:22 PM »

It sucks not being right - huh.

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Author Topic: For our pro-war friends on the board (Read 16209 times)