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Author Topic: ...but at least al qaeda is under control.....  (Read 13646 times)

tower912

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...but at least al qaeda is under control.....
« on: July 11, 2007, 07:13:19 PM »
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19717961/site/newsweek/site/newsweek/s.

Oops.   Perhaps that diversionary war didn't really weaken al qaeda after all.
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

Murffieus

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Re: ...but at least al qaeda is under control.....
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2007, 07:33:16 PM »
Well the proof of the pudding is in the tasting-----and no terrorist attacks here in six years tastes pretty good (have GWB to thank for that as he took it to them)----taking the offense to Al Quida and radical islam in Iraq and afghanistan has taken a toll on the jihadists.

However reports may be true that Al Quida ia reassembling training camps in Pakistan-----Bush is between the rock and the hard place on that one for the time being because of the precarious situation Musharrif finds himself in. If the US stages attacks on Pakistan soil it will rile the natives and strengthen his foes -----Pakistan has Nukes----if Musharrif falls and civil war ensues are the nukes safe? Worse yet if a Taliban government comes to power in Pakistan----what then?


mviale

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Re: ...but at least al qaeda is under control.....
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2007, 10:39:46 PM »
Middle east is about to erupt and countless americans have been killed or injured - that tastes bad

Bin Laden is still free
« Last Edit: July 11, 2007, 10:42:15 PM by mviale »
You heard it here first. Davante Gardner will be a Beast this year.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=27259

muarmy81

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Re: ...but at least al qaeda is under control.....
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2007, 06:02:46 AM »
When isn't the middle east about to erupt?  What do you expect of an area where religion drives behavior and every other tribe seems to have a different version of the religion?

Murffieus

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Re: ...but at least al qaeda is under control.....
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2007, 07:23:24 AM »
The problem isn't Bin Laden----may not even be alive----the problem is Pakistan, which is off limits from attack for reasons I describe above!

ChicosBailBonds

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Re: ...but at least al qaeda is under control.....
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2007, 09:26:21 AM »
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19717961/site/newsweek/site/newsweek/s.

Oops.   Perhaps that diversionary war didn't really weaken al qaeda after all.

Wait....is this the same CIA that said there were WMD....interesting.   ;D

Murffieus

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Re: ...but at least al qaeda is under control.....
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2007, 10:52:10 AM »
BTW----who are these phantom intelligence sources? Anyone can draw up an article without having to footnote specific sources!

Sorry, but a "gut feeling" without raising the alert level doesn't cut it!
« Last Edit: July 12, 2007, 10:55:02 AM by Murffieus »

Pakuni

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Re: ...but at least al qaeda is under control.....
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2007, 10:56:27 AM »
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19717961/site/newsweek/site/newsweek/s.

Oops.   Perhaps that diversionary war didn't really weaken al qaeda after all.

Wait....is this the same CIA that said there were WMD....interesting.   ;D

Actually, the analysis comes from the National Intelligence Estimate, which is the combined product of 16 agencies including the CIA, Dept. of Defense, Dept. of Energy, Dept. of Homeland Secuirty, the DEA, Treasury and State Department.
It's worth noting that all these agencies are headed by Bush appointees, i.e. people with an interest in making the administration look good. So when they issue a report doing just the opposite, it's worth noting.

Or, we could stick our heads in the sand and blame the messenger for news we don't want to hear.

Pakuni

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Re: ...but at least al qaeda is under control.....
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2007, 10:59:49 AM »
BTW----who are these phantom intelligence sources? Anyone can draw up an article without having to footnote specific sources!

Sorry, but a "gut feeling" without raising the alert level doesn't cut it!

Three minutes of research would have answered your question, Murff. But why do that when you can blame the evil media?

WASHINGTON: A new threat assessment from U.S. counterterrorism analysts says that al-Qaida has used its safe haven along the Afghan-Pakistan border to restore its operating capabilities to a level unseen since the months before Sept. 11, 2001.

A counterterrorism official familiar with a five-page summary of the document — titled "Al-Qaida better positioned to strike the West" — called it a stark appraisal. The analysis will be part of a broader meeting at the White House on Thursday about an upcoming National Intelligence Estimate.


http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/07/12/america/NA-GEN-US-Terror-Threat.php


What is a National Intelligence Estimate?
A National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) is the U.S. intelligence community's most authoritative, top-of-the-line written judgment on a specific national security issue. Representatives from keyU.S. intelligence agencies participate in writing an estimate, which is then submitted to the president and other policy-makers.


http://www.cfr.org/publication.html?id=7758#1


ChicosBailBonds

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Re: ...but at least al qaeda is under control.....
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2007, 01:23:07 PM »
Pakuni, I don't doubt for a second they are as strong as 9/11...I'm just chuckling at what intelligent sources people want to listen to and which ones they don't.


Now, the question for the day is this...if we did NOT do anything after 9/11 would Al Queda be any stronger?

In 1993 when they attacked the WTC, we took a law/order response...they got strong.  In 1996, 1998, 1999, 2000 when they attacked embassies, USS Cole, etc...we essentially took a law/order response and they still got stronger.

I think what mviale is trying to asert (just like the entire left wing blogosphere today) is that Al Queda is as strong or stronger now due to our wars in Afghanistan (which the left supported by the way) and Iraq.

The question for me is simple, if we didn't go into Iraq and Afghanistan, do these people really believe that Al Queda would not be stronger....or better yet, EVEN stronger then they are now?  I don't believe for a second that we have caused a ton of chaos for them, forced many underground, killed a ton of leadership, etc.


It's interesting, at last night's ESPY awards there was a story about Northern Ireland and how sports has brought the Catholics and Protestants together.  But also stated at the after party just how tenous the Northern Ireland situation is, even though the bombings haven't occurred for years.  It takes a generation or so they said for things to die down.

tower912

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Re: ...but at least al qaeda is under control.....
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2007, 04:05:29 PM »
The point is that al qaeda is who attacked us, there base of operation was Afghanistan and is now in the nether region along the border of Pakistan and Afghanistan.   Rather than finish the job in Afghanistan (and yes, I supported the war in Afghanistan as a necessary eye for an eye) and take out al qaeda and bin Laden, resources were pulled out of there too soon for an invasion of Iraq.   We have been paying Pakistan $1 billion a year for them to ferret out al qaeda while they take bribes from tribal leaders to stay away.
Now, because of our attention being focused elsewhere, al qaeda has strengthened like an anti-biotic resistant strain of bacteria.     They will attack us again.     
BTW, Chico/Carbon footprint/tomato, regarding your shot about who the source of the report is, I must say touche'.   Nice shooting.   But I think Pakuni has the right of it.
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

ChicosBailBonds

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Re: ...but at least al qaeda is under control.....
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2007, 04:14:18 PM »
Tower, we can play that what if game all day.  What if Clinton took out Bin Laden on the nearly dozen chances he had, before he even had a chance to cause 9/11?  Would ofs, could ofs, should ofs.

Let me put it to you this way, if Bush had Bin Laden in his sites, do you think for a nanosecond he wouldn't be dead?  That's the difference I see between this administration and the previous one.

We blasted Tora Bora to hell and back and it didn't do that job, but we sure as hell pounded the living crap out of them.  Pakistan has been marginally helpful at best because of their own internal problems, though the assault on the Red Mosque the other day was encouraging.  Let's see how long before they try to kill Mushariff again.

I guess my fundamental disagreement is this notion that you and others have professed, that Al Queda = terrorism and that Al Queda = Afghanistan.   There are some wonderful articles, books, etc that state otherwise.  Al Queda has been allowed to operate in enclaves in the Phillipines, Mogadishu, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Sudan, etc.  And not just 9/11 or the Iraqi war.  I agree with your contention that there are a lot more there in Iraq now then say 2003 or 2001, but I believe this notion that they were in one nation state is unbelievably naive.  As more and more documents continue to come out they shed more and more light on their tactics, bases of operations, planning, etc and their breadth of globalization.   The idea that they weren't in Iraq I believe has been answered many times by terrorist experts, former intelligence officers, etc but for whatever reason, doesn't get the traction it deserves.


Now...about Brown v Board...   ;)



« Last Edit: July 12, 2007, 04:24:33 PM by ChicosBailBonds »

mviale

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Re: ...but at least al qaeda is under control.....
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2007, 10:15:32 PM »
another diversion - clintion blew it now
You heard it here first. Davante Gardner will be a Beast this year.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=27259

tower912

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Re: ...but at least al qaeda is under control.....
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2007, 05:14:49 AM »
Yeah, I jumped the gun on the Brown v BOE thing.   What can I say?   I had a gut feeling that it was going to happen.   This supreme court seems to like the summer months to attack established law.   Just a feeling in my gut.
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

Murffieus

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Re: ...but at least al qaeda is under control.....
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2007, 07:37:27 AM »
Pakuni----if the threat is so great why hasn't the awareness level been raised? Also Bush and Chernoff deny that Al Quida is at pre 9/11 levels-----again if it were----the terror awareness level would be raised----it hasn't been!

Tower-----Jihadism isn't limited to Al Quida----you're taking too narrow a view of this. And for the umpteenth time-----Saddam was a Jihadist----he was paying the families of p-alestinian suicde bombers huge amounts of money in very public ceromonies with monies he was ripping off from the UN----this was a huge roadblock to an eventual mid east peace (which has to happen). The weapons inspector (Dulfer) post war report told us Saddam retained the capability to manufacture WMD and indeed intended to do so once the sanctions were lifted. Plus shooting at our planes (an act of war)----tried to assasinate a former US President (that's attempted murder).

To quit now sends the wrong message to our foes (radical islam) who know that the USA doesn't have the stomach to stay the course and therefore enboldens them to take the war to the next level----and the wrong message to our allies who see we can't be trusted to keep our commitment!
« Last Edit: July 13, 2007, 09:14:37 AM by Murffieus »

mviale

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Re: ...but at least al qaeda is under control.....
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2007, 08:23:54 AM »
Murf - do you have an auto-reply script whenever Bush or the church is attacked on the site?
You heard it here first. Davante Gardner will be a Beast this year.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=27259

Murffieus

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Re: ...but at least al qaeda is under control.....
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2007, 09:13:02 AM »
Mvaile---- some of you don't seem to get it----you apparently need the reps !
« Last Edit: July 13, 2007, 10:28:37 AM by Murffieus »

mviale

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Re: ...but at least al qaeda is under control.....
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2007, 10:40:51 AM »
Murf - let me put this in bball terms - If you have a Bob Dukiet running your team into the ground for 4 years, you make a change.  I believe no one is calling for isolation, but new tactics that removes our troops from the civil war in Iraq.  The foray into Iraq has not isolated al-queda, but has strengthened their message  to expand to more groups.  Saddam hated militant islam and would only use it as propaganda, just like his propaganda that he had huge weapon caches to instill fear in his neighbors.  We are reaching a 1/2 trillion on this baby and we dont have much ROI to speak of.


« Last Edit: July 13, 2007, 10:42:35 AM by mviale »
You heard it here first. Davante Gardner will be a Beast this year.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=27259

Pakuni

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Re: ...but at least al qaeda is under control.....
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2007, 11:17:23 AM »
To quit now sends the wrong message to our foes (radical islam) who know that the USA doesn't have the stomach to stay the course and therefore enboldens them to take the war to the next level----and the wrong message to our allies who see we can't be trusted to keep our commitment!

So we should continue allowing American troops to die with a failed strategy in a failed war because you don't want to lose face?
Easy for you to say from the comfort of your home, I suppose.

If Iraq truly is part of the "war" on terror (a somewhat specious claim to begin with, but I'll play along), then it's part of a war that will have many battles. And, try as we might, not every battle is going to be won. After nearly 4.5 years, it's becoming more and more clear that Iraq may be one of those battles we don't win.

Since you guys love the WWII analogies, try this one on for size: Bataan. Even MacArthur knew there was a time to throw in the towel. It came a little too late for thousands of Americans and even more Filipinos, but eventually he got out. It didn't cost the Americans victory in the Pacific. It didn't cause the Japanese the become even more emboldened and take the war to the oh-so-scary-sounding "next level". It was a lost battle in a larger war.

The bottom line is that Iraq, at some point, needs to deal with its own problems. With the blood of our soldiers, not to mention billions of our dollars, we've given them the opportunity to get out from under the boot of an evil dictator and create a free society of their own making. It's time for them to sink or swim on their own.

mviale

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Re: ...but at least al qaeda is under control.....
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2007, 11:24:44 AM »
something is up - I expect a cartoon or militant islam auto reply
You heard it here first. Davante Gardner will be a Beast this year.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=27259

muarmy81

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Re: ...but at least al qaeda is under control.....
« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2007, 11:37:57 AM »

The bottom line is that Iraq, at some point, needs to deal with its own problems. With the blood of our soldiers, not to mention billions of our dollars, we've given them the opportunity to get out from under the boot of an evil dictator and create a free society of their own making. It's time for them to sink or swim on their own.

As somebody who's been to Iraq twice, I fully agree with this point.  We've given the Iraqi's all they need to succeed and IMHO its time to cut the cord and let them manage their own country.

ChicosBailBonds

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Re: ...but at least al qaeda is under control.....
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2007, 11:48:33 AM »

The bottom line is that Iraq, at some point, needs to deal with its own problems. With the blood of our soldiers, not to mention billions of our dollars, we've given them the opportunity to get out from under the boot of an evil dictator and create a free society of their own making. It's time for them to sink or swim on their own.

As somebody who's been to Iraq twice, I fully agree with this point.  We've given the Iraqi's all they need to succeed and IMHO its time to cut the cord and let them manage their own country.


I think EVERYONE agrees with that point, including Bush.  The question is, are they READY to do it now?  The generals and the Iraqi government are saying no.

Murffieus

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Re: ...but at least al qaeda is under control.....
« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2007, 12:36:41 PM »
muarmy----are you aware of the fact that it took the continetal congress 5 years to work out a constitution 1782-87 and then another 2 years (1789) before it was ratified by all 13 states?

Nation building takes time !

If we leave now, Iraq doesn't have a chance!

mviale

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Re: ...but at least al qaeda is under control.....
« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2007, 12:45:02 PM »
4.5 years is unacceptable to the vast majorty of americans red and blue, I want a new strategy. I dont want to wait 15 years to have an airlift.



You heard it here first. Davante Gardner will be a Beast this year.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=27259

Murffieus

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Re: ...but at least al qaeda is under control.....
« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2007, 12:54:50 PM »
mviale-----So let's make an emotional decision to get out without considering the consequences----that makes no sense at all----all you do then is compound the problem because we'll have to go back and many more lives will be lost (on both sides).

One can argue whether it was right or wrong to go into Iraq----but that's a moot point now-----the reality is that we are there and owe it to the Iraqi people (and to ourselves) to finish the job-----and it won't take "15 years"!

ChicosBailBonds

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Re: ...but at least al qaeda is under control.....
« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2007, 01:52:51 PM »
Failed war and failed strategy.....looks like you got the Harry Reid talking points down pat.


Pakuni

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Re: ...but at least al qaeda is under control.....
« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2007, 02:23:22 PM »
muarmy----are you aware of the fact that it took the continetal congress 5 years to work out a constitution 1782-87 and then another 2 years (1789) before it was ratified by all 13 states?

Nation building takes time !

If we leave now, Iraq doesn't have a chance!

"I don't think our troops ought to be used for what's called nation-building."

- George W. Bush, Oct. 11, 2000

p.s. Comparing what happened in the late 18th Century at a time when the notion of a representative government was unheard of to something occurring more than 220 years later (when their are dozens of such governments after which Iraq could model itself) is about as silly as it gets.

ChicosBailBonds

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Re: ...but at least al qaeda is under control.....
« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2007, 07:27:57 PM »
muarmy----are you aware of the fact that it took the continetal congress 5 years to work out a constitution 1782-87 and then another 2 years (1789) before it was ratified by all 13 states?

Nation building takes time !

If we leave now, Iraq doesn't have a chance!

"I don't think our troops ought to be used for what's called nation-building."

- George W. Bush, Oct. 11, 2000

p.s. Comparing what happened in the late 18th Century at a time when the notion of a representative government was unheard of to something occurring more than 220 years later (when their are dozens of such governments after which Iraq could model itself) is about as silly as it gets.

At least you got the date right....what happened 11 months later that changed a lot of minds...including his?  I'll give you a hint...NYC 9/11/01.

I guess Tony Blair, Howard of Australia, Spain, Italy, Poland, etc .... were all just "silly" then.  It's funny how "silly" everyone was, when they really only had to seek your advice and others.  It's amazing how "silly" they all were when they went into Iraq...what a bunch of silly leaders this world has.  And God forbid they took out one of the world's worst and are trying to establish a democracy there now.  What disgusting acts on their part.   ::)

I'm off to Vegas.  Have a great weekend.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2007, 08:04:01 PM by ChicosBailBonds »

Murffieus

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Re: ...but at least al qaeda is under control.....
« Reply #28 on: July 14, 2007, 08:10:39 AM »
Chicos-----don't you know that GWB lied to John Kerry, Harry Reid, Hillary, etc who all voted for the war-------as well as Tony Blair, Howard and the rest of the coalition leadership insofar as reasons to invade Ieaq.

Never mind the fact that they all saw the exact same intelligence that GWB did----pre invasion which made the case for war!

Pakuni

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Re: ...but at least al qaeda is under control.....
« Reply #29 on: July 14, 2007, 10:10:23 AM »
muarmy----are you aware of the fact that it took the continetal congress 5 years to work out a constitution 1782-87 and then another 2 years (1789) before it was ratified by all 13 states?

Nation building takes time !

If we leave now, Iraq doesn't have a chance!

"I don't think our troops ought to be used for what's called nation-building."

- George W. Bush, Oct. 11, 2000

p.s. Comparing what happened in the late 18th Century at a time when the notion of a representative government was unheard of to something occurring more than 220 years later (when their are dozens of such governments after which Iraq could model itself) is about as silly as it gets.

At least you got the date right....what happened 11 months later that changed a lot of minds...including his?  I'll give you a hint...NYC 9/11/01.

I guess Tony Blair, Howard of Australia, Spain, Italy, Poland, etc .... were all just "silly" then.  It's funny how "silly" everyone was, when they really only had to seek your advice and others.  It's amazing how "silly" they all were when they went into Iraq...what a bunch of silly leaders this world has.  And God forbid they took out one of the world's worst and are trying to establish a democracy there now.  What disgusting acts on their part.   ::)

I'm off to Vegas.  Have a great weekend.

Ah Chico's ... I hope you weren't as far off the mark at the tables this weekend as you were in this post.

You know full well I never said anything about Britain, Italy, Australia, etc. being silly. Your disingenuity, as well as eagerness to inject a straw man, surprises and astounds me.
The silliness at work was Murff's crazy attempt to make the drafting of the U.S. Constitution more than 200 years ago analogous to what's happening today in Iraq. You and I both know the two situations are nothing alike. If you'd like a detailed list of why, I'd be happy to provide one.

Murffieus

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Re: ...but at least al qaeda is under control.....
« Reply #30 on: July 14, 2007, 11:14:47 AM »
No too situations are "exactly" a like-----but two situations can be "similar".

The continetal congress also had deep philosophical differences about how things should be shaped post war, which is very similar in that there are major differences in Iraq among politicians.

Takes time-----look at our current congress----there is so much devisiveness that they have yet to pass a bill!

77ncaachamps

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Re: ...but at least al qaeda is under control.....
« Reply #31 on: July 14, 2007, 12:52:42 PM »
muarmy----are you aware of the fact that it took the continetal congress 5 years to work out a constitution 1782-87 and then another 2 years (1789) before it was ratified by all 13 states?

Nation building takes time !

If we leave now, Iraq doesn't have a chance!

"I don't think our troops ought to be used for what's called nation-building."

- George W. Bush, Oct. 11, 2000

p.s. Comparing what happened in the late 18th Century at a time when the notion of a representative government was unheard of to something occurring more than 220 years later (when their are dozens of such governments after which Iraq could model itself) is about as silly as it gets.

At least you got the date right....what happened 11 months later that changed a lot of minds...including his?  I'll give you a hint...NYC 9/11/01.

I guess Tony Blair, Howard of Australia, Spain, Italy, Poland, etc .... were all just "silly" then.  It's funny how "silly" everyone was, when they really only had to seek your advice and others.  It's amazing how "silly" they all were when they went into Iraq...what a bunch of silly leaders this world has.  And God forbid they took out one of the world's worst and are trying to establish a democracy there now.  What disgusting acts on their part.   ::)

I'm off to Vegas.  Have a great weekend.

Yes.

This world has a bunch of silly leaders.
SS Marquette

Murffieus

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Re: ...but at least al qaeda is under control.....
« Reply #32 on: July 14, 2007, 02:10:17 PM »
Are you saying that Tony Blair is a "silly" leader?-------I hope you were referring to te leaders of Venuzuela, Iran, and North Korea!

ChicosBailBonds

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Re: ...but at least al qaeda is under control.....
« Reply #33 on: July 15, 2007, 08:59:24 PM »
What I also don't understand is if you're hanging on to the "no nation building" comment from 2000 during a campaign, yet you supported us going into Afghanistan...what did you expect us to do after we went into Afghanistan...bomb and leave?  I mean of course we were going to have to do nation building there so it seems totally contradictory to your own beliefs in 2001 when we went to Afghanistan.



Frankly, I'm still trying to understand the left's position on Al Queda.  For some time now they harp again and again and again that we "should have gone after Al Queda".  Well, we know where Al Queda is in large quantities...Iraq...yet they want to pull us out of Iraq.  So is it that they wanted us to go after Al Queda yesterday, but not today?  Makes no sense.

Murffieus

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Re: ...but at least al qaeda is under control.....
« Reply #34 on: July 15, 2007, 09:23:54 PM »
The liberals think the Al Quida in the Pakistan/Afghanistan area are the real Al Quida-----never mind that Bin Laden himself said that Iraq was the central war on the "crusaders" !

 

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