Notre Dame to ACC

[Knight Commission]

Per Andy Katz....ACC will *not* add a 16th member and is done with expansion.

"Andy KatzþESPNAndyKatz
Agree. RT mcmurphyespn: ACC will not go to 16 teams in hoops, sources tell espn. Notre Dame will be league's last addition."

The timing of this announcement had to be orchestrated with the negotiations with the TV contract. My guess is that the new commissioner (ESPN guy) knew this in advance and wanted to get it out there before a new deal is inked. If the league was going to explode, my sense is that others would have announced today as well. ESPN probably wanted things sorted out before it agreed to a deal. As much as I want a basketball only conference, I dont think its happening.

[brewcity77]

Guys, some of this just isn't reality. What on earth would Marquette bring to any of the major conferences?

Big 10: New market? Nope, the Badgers already lead sports coverage in Milwaukee. And even with lacrosse and soccer, they just don't need the sports we have. The Big 10 is made up of massive state schools. People like us, Creighton, and DePaul don't expand their market and certainly don't raise their profile. All we are is a drain off their lucrative deals. If they didn't want ND as non-football, there's less than zero chance they'd want us. And if they did add basketball-only, they'd look to schools like Georgetown and St John's that would widen their footprint.

SEC/PAC-12: A sub-30 market with a small alumni base compared to their massive state schools and as far out of their footprints as we are? No way. Not even worth considering.

ACC: I get the hope, but they'd certainly go after 'Nova and St John's first, which solidify larger markets and could bring MSG. And that's assuming Maryland tries to block Georgetown, a school that would clearly be the most desirable basketball-only. Our ties to ND and having LW would help, but why would any of those schools let ND come in and dictate that they take us?

Big 12: Would we even want to be there in the unlikely event they saw Milwaukee as a worthwhile enough market to go basketball only? Texas runs things and isn't good at sharing. Like the first three conferences, they are all massive state schools. And honestly, while we have a good program, we don't bring a nationwide brand or a major market. If the Big East crumbles, Louisville and Cincy are far more realistic options as they have football, and I think DePaul's market and Creighton rebuilding their Nebraska base would be more likely fits as basketball-only options, as sacrilegious as that may be to say.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

And the Big Ten had an interest in hockey but simply didn't have enough members playing it.  Notice that they *could* have added "hockey-only" members for years...but didn't.  They waited until a sixth member made a commitment to the sport.

It's a fair point, but they pressed all of the Big10 schools to create a Big10 hockey network. Why? Because they need content... even if it's not a huge amount of money.

My only points are this (and then I'll leave it alone):

#1 Conferences are looking for revenue and content. These have not been primary drivers behind conference affiliations until now. This goes for all conferences.

#2 Football makes the most $, so all of the conferences are raiding each other for top FB programs to build television contracts. Geography doesn't matter. Tradition doesn't matter. Just FB... which is really just $. $.

#3 The Big 10 likes tradition. But, the Big10 also like $. Decisions are increasingly about $, and specifically their television $.

#4 MU is 99% NOT going to be in the Big10. But, I think some of you are focusing on the wrong stuff. If the Big10 thinks it can add significant revenue with some partial members, you bet your ass they will consider it.

#5 Football has been the focus of conferences the past 2-4 years because it makes the most $. You know what makes the second most $? I assure they do, and when the dust settles on football, they are going to go after the next revenue stream.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Guys, some of this just isn't reality. What on earth would Marquette bring to any of the major conferences?

Big 10: New market? Nope, the Badgers already lead sports coverage in Milwaukee. And even with lacrosse and soccer, they just don't need the sports we have. The Big 10 is made up of massive state schools. People like us, Creighton, and DePaul don't expand their market and certainly don't raise their profile. All we are is a drain off their lucrative deals. If they didn't want ND as non-football, there's less than zero chance they'd want us. And if they did add basketball-only, they'd look to schools like Georgetown and St John's that would widen their footprint.

SEC/PAC-12: A sub-30 market with a small alumni base compared to their massive state schools and as far out of their footprints as we are? No way. Not even worth considering.

ACC: I get the hope, but they'd certainly go after 'Nova and St John's first, which solidify larger markets and could bring MSG. And that's assuming Maryland tries to block Georgetown, a school that would clearly be the most desirable basketball-only. Our ties to ND and having LW would help, but why would any of those schools let ND come in and dictate that they take us?

Big 12: Would we even want to be there in the unlikely event they saw Milwaukee as a worthwhile enough market to go basketball only? Texas runs things and isn't good at sharing. Like the first three conferences, they are all massive state schools. And honestly, while we have a good program, we don't bring a nationwide brand or a major market. If the Big East crumbles, Louisville and Cincy are far more realistic options as they have football, and I think DePaul's market and Creighton rebuilding their Nebraska base would be more likely fits as basketball-only options, as sacrilegious as that may be to say.

I don't think any conference is going to want MU for the market, or for the reputation. MU's financials and long term projections will have to look good, and that could make it attractive as an add-on for a conference.

Conferences aren't going to magically stop searching for money. If partial members add revenue, they will be considered.

The question for MU... do they add enough revenue to be worth addition to X conference?

I don't know the answer... and I fear that it might be "no".

[frozena pizza]

I'd say there is a better chance of MU landing Jabari Parker than MU going to the Big 10.

[AlumKCof93]

Assuming that all of the major conferences are done with their expansion, then it might be somewhat realistic to think that the schools of the Big East, A-10 and Conference USA could join together to form one conference, split among divisions for basketball and football.  Simply guessing, it might look something like this;

Basketball-only                Football & Basketball
1. Marquette                    1) USF
2. DePaul                         2) Louisville
3. St. John's                     3) Cincy
4. Georgetown                   4) UConn 
5. Villanova                       5) Rutgers
6. Seton Hall                      6) Temple
7. Providence                     7) UMass
8. Butler (or SLU)                8) Memphis
9. Xavier                            9) Houston
10. Dayton                        10) E. Carolina

[Niv Berkowitz]

1) The brand of ND isn't helping the basketball-only schools at this point any way.

2) Compared to having already lost Cuse, Pitt and WVU, the marginal loss of ND is minimal.  The brand has a floor, and that floor was already approached before ND made it's decision.

3) ND solidifies the Chicago market for a conference network/contract, but with DePaul (and to a lesser extent, MU), you still have Chicago.  You probably lose South Bend, but that's not a big deal.  ND isn't going to win you a market in Texas, but SMU & Houston do.  Same with western Tennessee... Memphis grabs that market, ND does not.



Look at this way... you've got 16 girls in a bar: 4 are smokin' hot, 10 are moderately attractive, and 2 are just plain ugly.  Two of your smokin' girls (Pitt and Cuse) and 1 attractive girl (WVU) just left, but in walked five more girls (3 moderately attractive and 2 ugly) shortly after.  If another smokin' girl (ND) leaves, does it really make a difference at that point (especially given that you didn't have a chance with her to begin with)?

And by the way, one of those girls that did walk in... she may be ugly, but she and two of her friends she came in with have a boatload of cash.  A little cosmetic surgery, some new attractive friends, and all of the sudden, things aren't as bad as you thought they were going to be.

But if they have herpes, who cares? That crape isn't going away! This sucks. Perception is reality. ND is about a big of a brand name as you can get. Love em or hate em, it's true.

[Tugg Speedman]

Here is how I see it.  Thoughts

---

The big losers are Uconn and Rutgers.  B10 and ACC are "full."  They are both football schools with hopes of being a major BCS powers.  That is not going to happen in the BEast and today's move leaves them with no apparent home.

Cincy/Lousiville/USF next biggest losers.  Same problem as above but they might still be able to join the "Misfit BCS football conference" otherwise known as the B12.  Most likely they are not all going to the B12 so one or more of them are going to move into the Uconn/Rutgers camp of being totally shafted.

Who is OK for now are the non-football schools of the BEast.  They still have a decent conference for the next few years and have the realistic option of forming a decent basketball only conference after that.  Of course this has to happen.

[Niv Berkowitz]

You guys are in flippin' la-la land...

The Big Ten has no desire to do this.  None.  This is a conference that went to 11 members, and then sat on adding a 12th member for almost 20 years.  This is a conference that had ND on its backdoor and probably could have made this deal with them at anytime during this stretch.  But they didn't.

Why would they mess around with partial members?  To get a game or two more per week on the BTN???

One thing people forget about is that the Big Ten has very, very high standards for admitting schools. Every memeber is a part of a "top 100 schools" in the country organization and they want to keep that in tact moving forward. Rutgers is not on that list and it's why they weren't looking to add them in over Missouri (who is on the list). Mizzou is now out of the question.

My point is that, unless the Big Ten comes to the realization that they need to relax these policies, it may be stuck in limbo for a while and by the time they decide to make a change, it'll be too late. The same thing is happening now in the Big East. They are on the cusp of losing control of their own destiny. Some would say it's already lost.

[TallTitan34]

Assuming that all of the major conferences are done with their expansion, then it might be somewhat realistic to think that the schools of the Big East, A-10 and Conference USA could join together to form one conference, split among divisions for basketball and football.  Simply guessing, it might look something like this;

Basketball-only                Football & Basketball
1. Marquette                    1) USF
2. DePaul                         2) Louisville
3. St. John's                     3) Cincy
4. Georgetown                   4) UConn 
5. Villanova                       5) Rutgers
6. Seton Hall                      6) Temple
7. Providence                     7) UMass
8. Butler (or SLU)                8) Memphis
9. Xavier                            9) Houston
10. Dayton                        10) E. Carolina

The Big Tens!

[lab_warrior]

One thing people forget about is that the Big Ten has very, very high standards for admitting schools. Every memeber is a part of a "top 100 schools" in the country organization and they want to keep that in tact moving forward. Rutgers is not on that list and it's why they weren't looking to add them in over Missouri (who is on the list). Mizzou is now out of the question.

My point is that, unless the Big Ten comes to the realization that they need to relax these policies, it may be stuck in limbo for a while and by the time they decide to make a change, it'll be too late. The same thing is happening now in the Big East. They are on the cusp of losing control of their own destiny. Some would say it's already lost.

This B10 talk is a non-starter.  No way they're expanding.  They've finally got their 2 divisions, champ. game, network.  They're completely and utterly in control of their destiny, and the furthest from limbo (The Empyrean?) possible.     

They're as fat and happy as can be (even with the PennSt. s***show, and the fact that the quality of football isn't great).  NO WAY they're messing with that. 

[Dr. Blackheart]

How many $$ did ND football bring to the BE TV deal?  None. The big loss is presitige, local and national interest and a possible NBC lead-in for a potential BE football Saturday.

MU may have to park some of their Olympics sports like lacrosse in either the B1G or the ACC.  Not ideal but this ends a one-sided business partnership.

Buehler?  Buehler...why isn't Larry Williams out there in public talking to alums, his press pal Walker like he was for T-Shirtgate?  Silence is golden (domer).  I guess he will have his chance Friday at the B&G Auction.  Should be interesting.

[Tugg Speedman]

How many $$ did ND football bring to the BE TV deal?  None. The big loss is presitige, local and national interest and a possible NBC lead-in for a potential BE football Saturday.

MU may have to park some of their Olympics sports like lacrosse in either the B1G or the ACC.  Not ideal but this ends a one-sided business partnership.

Buehler?  Buehler...why isn't Larry Williams out there in public talking to alums, his press pal Walker like he was for T-Shirtgate?  Silence is golden (domer).  I guess he will have his chance Friday at the B&G Auction.  Should be interesting.

ND was the "Chicago team" for the BE.  So unless DePaul can get its act together, the BE lost a representative from a big TV market.

For the betterment of the BE, should we tell Steve Taylor to transfer and pass of Kendrick Nunn?

[Groin_pull]

How many $$ did ND football bring to the BE TV deal?  None. The big loss is presitige, local and national interest and a possible NBC lead-in for a potential BE football Saturday.

MU may have to park some of their Olympics sports like lacrosse in either the B1G or the ACC.  Not ideal but this ends a one-sided business partnership.

Buehler?  Buehler...why isn't Larry Williams out there in public talking to alums, his press pal Walker like he was for T-Shirtgate?  Silence is golden (domer).  I guess he will have his chance Friday at the B&G Auction.  Should be interesting.

No way will the Big 10 or ACC take MU's olympic sports teams. MU will be lucky to end up in the A-10 when this all shakes out.

[frozena pizza]

Guys, the strategy is fairly simple.  Stay tight with Georgetown, Villanova and St. John's.  Hope that however this shakes out, we are in a package with them.

[Dr. Blackheart]

ND was the "Chicago team" for the BE.  So unless DePaul can get its act together, the BE lost a representative from a big TV market.

For the betterment of the BE, should we tell Steve Taylor to transfer and pass of Kendrick Nunn?

As I said, "local/national"...however, each BE basketball team earned $2mm per year. So, ND got MU an extra 100k?  ND Olympic presitige sports earned us $0, but saved us travel costs....which is why the B1G or ACC could <potentially> take on a MU in a spot sport where there are not enough teams.  MU would get nothing from them or them from us, other than reduced travel costs.

[WarriorDoc]

No way will the Big 10 or ACC take MU's olympic sports teams. MU will be lucky to end up in the A-10 when this all shakes out.

How does this work, by the way?  MU is clearly a higher caliber team than many of the A-10 bottom-feeders.  I'm sure they would be more than happy to kick a Charlotte or Richmond out of the conference for a university with history, facilities, money, etc like Marquette, DePaul, or Nova.  I guess my question is, the Big East kicked Temple out once, could the A-10 do it to their lesser teams and gain something better?

[MerrittsMustache]

How does this work, by the way?  MU is clearly a higher caliber team than many of the A-10 bottom-feeders.  I'm sure they would be more than happy to kick a Charlotte or Richmond out of the conference for a university with history, facilities, money, etc like Marquette, DePaul, or Nova.  I guess my question is, the Big East kicked Temple out once, could the A-10 do it to their lesser teams and gain something better?

Or would the top A-10 teams and bball-only BE teams form their own league?

[GGGG]

How does this work, by the way?  MU is clearly a higher caliber team than many of the A-10 bottom-feeders.  I'm sure they would be more than happy to kick a Charlotte or Richmond out of the conference for a university with history, facilities, money, etc like Marquette, DePaul, or Nova.  I guess my question is, the Big East kicked Temple out once, could the A-10 do it to their lesser teams and gain something better?

Well, they aren't going to do this, but I am sure the procedure for expelling a member is clearly defined in their bylaws.

And Charlotte is adding football and moving to Conference USA.

Or would the top A-10 teams and bball-only BE teams form their own league?

That would be the more viable option.

[Groin_pull]

Guys, the strategy is fairly simple.  Stay tight with Georgetown, Villanova and St. John's.  Hope that however this shakes out, we are in a package with them.

Package? There is no loyalty and no alliances. Georgetown and Villanova are probably begging the ACC to let them in. I'm sure St Johns is eyeing the A-10. MU is now an island.

[Pakuni]

Or would the top A-10 teams and bball-only BE teams form their own league?

This is the best possible outcome, as a non-football conference, under the present circumstances.
Marquette
Villanova
St. John's
Georgetown
Seton Hall
Providence
DePaul
Butler
Dayton
Xavier
St. Louis
VCU
Maybe two more from among St. Bonnies, St. Joe's, Richmond, UMass and GW. That is if G'Town is willing to share a conference with GW, and Nova with St. Joe's.

[Dawson Rental]

Okay, Larry, you finally convinced me.  The ACC would be nice.  Let's do things the ND way!

[frozena pizza]

Package? There is no loyalty and no alliances. Georgetown and Villanova are probably begging the ACC to let them in. I'm sure St Johns is eyeing the A-10. MU is now an island.

I wasn't saying that.  My point is that those schools most closely match up with us in terms of their situation and what they have to offer, i.e., urban private schools with relatively successful basketball programs but no D-1 football.  Even then we may be a bit of an outlier since we are in a smaller market in a different geographic region.  But if we stay with them (and presumably the other basketball only BE schools) I think we'll be fine.

[Dawson Rental]

This is the best possible outcome, as a non-football conference, under the present circumstances.
Marquette
Villanova
St. John's
Georgetown
Seton Hall
Providence
DePaul
Butler
Dayton
Xavier
St. Louis
VCU
Maybe two more from among St. Bonnies, St. Joe's, Richmond, UMass and GW. That is if G'Town is willing to share a conference with GW, and Nova with St. Joe's.

This is why it's in MU's best interest to keep the Big East together.  MU is much better off included with Louisville, Memphis, UConn, Rutgers and Cincinnati.

[Pakuni]

This is why it's in MU's best interest to keep the Big East together.  MU is much better off included with Louisville, Memphis, UConn, Rutgers and Cincinnati.

Except those schools:

a) Will perpetually be on the lookout for a better situation, leading to constant instability and a real chance of MU completing losing in the game of musical conferences (Hello, CUSA or Horizon League!). Louisville and UConn absolutely will jump at the first opportunity to bail on the Big East, and they've got the best chance of landing a better offer. Then what?

b) Have little reason to want basketball-only schools around, or give them much of a voice in conference operations.

At this point, not trying to create some kind of hoops only league with the best of the BE and A-10 hoops only programs seems to be only delaying the inevitable and, possibly, risking a much worse fate.