2012 NFC North/NFL Thread

[MerrittsMustache]

To suggest that these type of questionable calls don't happen (to all teams) with the regular refs is madness. Cutler was awful, the Oline was equally bad, and the Bears got their butts whipped. It happens. Blaming the refs is the losers' lament.

There's a difference between "questionable calls" and calls that are flat-out wrong. When a player doesn't have control of the ball and it hits the ground, that's not a catch. When there are 11 men on the field and the team gets called for having 12 men on the field, that's wrong. When a player blatantly grabs the facemask of another player while making a tackle, that's a penalty. These aren't judgment calls. They're black and white. It's not like pointing out the hold and block in the back on the fake FG. Those are judgment calls. (BTW, the fake FG was an awesome call and play)

As I said before, the Bears looked awful but without a couple missed calls that led to Packer points and one that potentially took points of the board for the Bears, it obviously would have been a very different ballgame. Did the Bears deserve to win? Absolutely not. It actually reminded me of the NFC Championship Game from a couple years ago. The Bears were awful and it felt like they should have been down 30, but the Packers weren't a whole lot better and the Bears were somehow still in the game.

Also, Mathews is a beast. As long as his "trainers" stay ahead of the testing, he's going to be a tough match-up for a long time.

[ATWizJr]

There's a difference between "questionable calls" and calls that are flat-out wrong. When a player doesn't have control of the ball and it hits the ground, that's not a catch. When there are 11 men on the field and the team gets called for having 12 men on the field, that's wrong. When a player blatantly grabs the facemask of another player while making a tackle, that's a penalty. These aren't judgment calls. They're black and white. It's not like pointing out the hold and block in the back on the fake FG. Those are judgment calls. (BTW, the fake FG was an awesome call and play)

As I said before, the Bears looked awful but without a couple missed calls that led to Packer points and one that potentially took points of the board for the Bears, it obviously would have been a very different ballgame. Did the Bears deserve to win? Absolutely not. It actually reminded me of the NFC Championship Game from a couple years ago. The Bears were awful and it felt like they should have been down 30, but the Packers weren't a whole lot better and the Bears were somehow still in the game.



Also, Mathews is a beast. As long as his "trainers" stay ahead of the testing, he's going to be a tough match-up for a long time.

Pass the grapes. Wait, they're sour and taste salty.

[hairy worthen]

There's a difference between "questionable calls" and calls that are flat-out wrong. When a player doesn't have control of the ball and it hits the ground, that's not a catch. When there are 11 men on the field and the team gets called for having 12 men on the field, that's wrong. When a player blatantly grabs the facemask of another player while making a tackle, that's a penalty. These aren't judgment calls. They're black and white. It's not like pointing out the hold and block in the back on the fake FG. Those are judgment calls. (BTW, the fake FG was an awesome call and play)

As I said before, the Bears looked awful but without a couple missed calls that led to Packer points and one that potentially took points of the board for the Bears, it obviously would have been a very different ballgame. Did the Bears deserve to win? Absolutely not. It actually reminded me of the NFC Championship Game from a couple years ago. The Bears were awful and it felt like they should have been down 30, but the Packers weren't a whole lot better and the Bears were somehow still in the game.

Also, Mathews is a beast. As long as his "trainers" stay ahead of the testing, he's going to be a tough match-up for a long time.

How about the Packers "D" flat out kicked the Bears and Cutlers ass. Nothing the do with the refs.

I do not know how you can say those calls were "flat out wrong" I watched them closely on DVR. The interception was a catch there was nothing definitive that showed it even hit the ground. Certainly not enough evidence to over turn it. The 12 men on the field was the correct call, he was not off the field before the ball was snapped that was "black and white " as you say. If you don't think those calls were any different than the regular refs would make, you are not paying attention. The only thing thing you can say about the ref's  is that they are much slower with replays and game management. Complaining about the refs after a loss is losers talk.

[DegenerateDish]

Few key turning points in that game:

-The 12 men on the field call was bogus, there was no way there was indisuputable evidence to overturn it. Not that it cost the Bears the game, but the game was really ugly for both teams at that point, led to first points of the game

-Carimi penalty was an absolute killer. Deserved to be called, second guy always gets flagged

-Fake FG was huge. Credit the Pack for running the exact same play from a few Bears/Pack games ago (Maynard/Lyman TD, exact same play). Bears were stacked heavy on the right side of the line, in full out FG block formation. Perfect call, perfect time by the Pack.

-Cutler's pick right before the half. Led to 3 more Pack points, huge.

-Marshall's TD drop. As poor as the game was at that point, if he hangs on, it's 13-7.

Blaming Cutler for the entire Bears shortcomings is shortsighted. He didn't play great by any means. The last pick hit the ground, shouldn't have been an INT (technically speaking it is correct), and Bennett killed him on that Woodson pick (just like James Jones killed Rodgers on his INT). Offensive line wasn't great by any means, but a few of those sacks have to go to the GB secondary, clearly coverage sacks.

Bears defense was great. Rodgers typically does not have great games against the Bears, and they pressured him a lot last night and forced a couple of TO's.

Credit the Pack for playing a ton of Cover 2 last night, that really is what decided that game. Their execution was outstanding (both defenses execution was very good last night). I have not seen the Pack (under Capers) play much, if any, Cover 2 before, be interested to hear from Pack fans if they have recently.

Didn't think the officiating was great by any means, but as great a game as Matthews had, he was held about 1 in every 3 passing plays.

Congrats to the Pack, both teams 1-1, NFC West opponents coming up for both teams.

[jmayer1]

There's a difference between "questionable calls" and calls that are flat-out wrong. When a player doesn't have control of the ball and it hits the ground, that's not a catch. When there are 11 men on the field and the team gets called for having 12 men on the field, that's wrong. When a player blatantly grabs the facemask of another player while making a tackle, that's a penalty. These aren't judgment calls. They're black and white. It's not like pointing out the hold and block in the back on the fake FG. Those are judgment calls. (BTW, the fake FG was an awesome call and play)

As I said before, the Bears looked awful but without a couple missed calls that led to Packer points and one that potentially took points of the board for the Bears, it obviously would have been a very different ballgame. Did the Bears deserve to win? Absolutely not. It actually reminded me of the NFC Championship Game from a couple years ago. The Bears were awful and it felt like they should have been down 30, but the Packers weren't a whole lot better and the Bears were somehow still in the game.

Also, Mathews is a beast. As long as his "trainers" stay ahead of the testing, he's going to be a tough match-up for a long time.

Yeah, 2 of those of those calls are black and white and you are flat-out wrong.

There was 12 men on the field, you are wrong. Black and white call.

Please show me the block in the back outside the allowed area of the line of scrimmage, you are wrong. Black and white call.

It was inconclusive whether the ball moved when it hit the ground, clearly not enough to overturn it, you are wrong.

Did he twist the facemask or was it incidental? Judgement call, could have been made.

As for the Packers, I'm really happy. They kicked the Bears' a$$ all over the field. I'd much rather see them win this way, with a strong defensive outing, than simply outscore the other team like a lot of times last year, because I know that Rodgers and the offense are going to put up their fair share of points when they start clicking.

[jmayer1]

Few key turning points in that game:

Pretty good analysis Dish. The Bears D did a good job of keeping Rodgers off-balance a bit. With the pressure they gave him, he didn't ever get into a great rhythm. I'm not sure on the Cover 2. I don't really remember them playing it much, but they don't often give you that wide view on TV.

I do disagree with you in regards to the 12 men on the field. Watching frame by frame on DVR (didn't think NFL network did a great job with their replays there), you could see his foot was still on the field when the ball moved.

[hairy worthen]

Few key turning points in that game:

-The 12 men on the field call was bogus, there was no way there was indisuputable evidence to overturn it. Not that it cost the Bears the game, but the game was really ugly for both teams at that point, led to first points of the game

-Carimi penalty was an absolute killer. Deserved to be called, second guy always gets flagged

-Fake FG was huge. Credit the Pack for running the exact same play from a few Bears/Pack games ago (Maynard/Lyman TD, exact same play). Bears were stacked heavy on the right side of the line, in full out FG block formation. Perfect call, perfect time by the Pack.

-Cutler's pick right before the half. Led to 3 more Pack points, huge.

-Marshall's TD drop. As poor as the game was at that point, if he hangs on, it's 13-7.

Blaming Cutler for the entire Bears shortcomings is shortsighted. He didn't play great by any means. The last pick hit the ground, shouldn't have been an INT (technically speaking it is correct), and Bennett killed him on that Woodson pick (just like James Jones killed Rodgers on his INT). Offensive line wasn't great by any means, but a few of those sacks have to go to the GB secondary, clearly coverage sacks.

Bears defense was great. Rodgers typically does not have great games against the Bears, and they pressured him a lot last night and forced a couple of TO's.

Credit the Pack for playing a ton of Cover 2 last night, that really is what decided that game. Their execution was outstanding (both defenses execution was very good last night). I have not seen the Pack (under Capers) play much, if any, Cover 2 before, be interested to hear from Pack fans if they have recently.

Didn't think the officiating was great by any means, but as great a game as Matthews had, he was held about 1 in every 3 passing plays.

Congrats to the Pack, both teams 1-1, NFC West opponents coming up for both teams.

Finally a rational Bears fan. I disagree with you on the 12 man call. Also i do not think Cutler was the only reason for the loss, but he was a big reason. You can not under estimate the effect his kitten like attitude has on the team. This is supposed to be their leader, but he does not show very good leadership qualities at all. Instead of saying how great they are and then bitching at his team mates when things don't go right, how about improving your own play.

[DegenerateDish]

Pretty good analysis Dish. The Bears D did a good job of keeping Rodgers off-balance a bit. With the pressure they gave him, he didn't ever get into a great rhythm. I'm not sure on the Cover 2. I don't really remember them playing it much, but they don't often give you that wide view on TV.

I do disagree with you in regards to the 12 men on the field. Watching frame by frame on DVR (didn't think NFL network did a great job with their replays there), you could see his foot was still on the field when the ball moved.

My only beef with the 12 men on the field call is the ruling on the field was 11 men. Replay rules state you have to have indisputable visual evidence to overturn the call. Just didn't seem like there was enough evidence to overturn it. If anything I give Rodgers credit for snapping it quickly and then running over to the ref to point it out.

My biggest concern for the Bears is that the Pack gave every other team in the league the gameplan to disrupt the Bears offense. If you can play cover 2, or play base and have a safety shadow Marshall all night, Bears passing game will be in trouble. Their lack of a playmaking TE really hurt them last night, Kellen Davis was really bad.

[MerrittsMustache]

Yeah, 2 of those of those calls are black and white and you are flat-out wrong.

There was 12 men on the field, you are wrong. Black and white call.

Please show me the block in the back outside the allowed area of the line of scrimmage, you are wrong. Black and white call.

It was inconclusive whether the ball moved when it hit the ground, clearly not enough to overturn it, you are wrong.

Did he twist the facemask or was it incidental? Judgement call, could have been made.

As for the Packers, I'm really happy. They kicked the Bears' a$$ all over the field. I'd much rather see them win this way, with a strong defensive outing, than simply outscore the other team like a lot of times last year, because I know that Rodgers and the offense are going to put up their fair share of points when they start clicking.

I believe my own eyes and the paid-to-be-unbiased announcer over you.

On the fake FG, Conte (#47) looked like he was being held and I believe it was #93 who threw the block in the back at around 10 yard line , which was incredibly pointless and very dumb on his part but it was probably a good no-call.

In the end, none of it really matters when the o-line can't block and the QB gets frustrated and starts chucking.

[MerrittsMustache]

My biggest concern for the Bears is that the Pack gave every other team in the league the gameplan to disrupt the Bears offense. If you can play cover 2, or play base and have a safety shadow Marshall all night, Bears passing game will be in trouble. Their lack of a playmaking TE really hurt them last night, Kellen Davis was really bad.

Good call. The key to the Cover-2 is getting pressure with the front four. The Bears' most glaring weakness is protecting the passer. It makes sense that teams are going to bracket the big play WRs and take your chances with the Bears' o-line. Oh, and Kellen Davis really is brutal. If only they had a TE with some size and athleticism like, say, Greg Olson, for example.

On a sidenote, does Tice have any quick slants in his playbook? Those tend to kill the Bears in their Cover-2.

[hairy worthen]

I believe my own eyes and the paid-to-be-unbiased announcer over you.

On the fake FG, Conte (#47) looked like he was being held and I believe it was #93 who threw the block in the back at around 10 yard line , which was incredibly pointless and very dumb on his part but it was probably a good no-call.

In the end, none of it really matters when the o-line can't block and the QB gets frustrated and starts chucking.

The packers were the better team last night, period. Just like the 49ers were the better team last Sunday, period. Why can't you just accept that. I ussually enjoy your analysis about everything MU but you are looking at last nights game through blue and orange glasses.

[DegenerateDish]

Finally a rational Bears fan. I disagree with you on the 12 man call. Also i do not think Cutler was the only reason for the loss, but he was a big reason. You can not under estimate the effect his kitten like attitude has on the team. This is supposed to be their leader, but he does not show very good leadership qualities at all. Instead of saying how great they are and then bitching at his team mates when things don't go right, how about improving your own play.

Sure, I won't argue he wasn't a big reason for their loss. He underthrew Marshall on that Williams pick, he had Jeffrey as wide open as you can be in the end zone and never saw him, he made bad reads, didn't audible as much as he did against the Colts.

The only thing I find somewhat ironic is one of the other QB's in the league known for chewing out his offensive teammates is Rodgers. I'm not talking just about the Jones play last night, but within the league he too can/will speak his mind. Not as often as Cutler might, or as often as the cameras catch it.

Cutler is who he is, he's overly confident, not afraid to speak his mind. He's frustrated from getting knocked on his butt, he (to a fault) trusts his arm strength to be able to make any throw he thinks he can. It's his offense (for better or worse). Capers is his kryptonite, the guy calls great game plans against Cutler and his frustration boiled over.

[MerrittsMustache]

Few key turning points in that game:

-The 12 men on the field call was bogus, there was no way there was indisuputable evidence to overturn it. Not that it cost the Bears the game, but the game was really ugly for both teams at that point, led to first points of the game

-Carimi penalty was an absolute killer. Deserved to be called, second guy always gets flagged

-Fake FG was huge. Credit the Pack for running the exact same play from a few Bears/Pack games ago (Maynard/Lyman TD, exact same play). Bears were stacked heavy on the right side of the line, in full out FG block formation. Perfect call, perfect time by the Pack.

-Cutler's pick right before the half. Led to 3 more Pack points, huge.

-Marshall's TD drop. As poor as the game was at that point, if he hangs on, it's 13-7.

Blaming Cutler for the entire Bears shortcomings is shortsighted. He didn't play great by any means. The last pick hit the ground, shouldn't have been an INT (technically speaking it is correct), and Bennett killed him on that Woodson pick (just like James Jones killed Rodgers on his INT). Offensive line wasn't great by any means, but a few of those sacks have to go to the GB secondary, clearly coverage sacks.

Bears defense was great. Rodgers typically does not have great games against the Bears, and they pressured him a lot last night and forced a couple of TO's.

Credit the Pack for playing a ton of Cover 2 last night, that really is what decided that game. Their execution was outstanding (both defenses execution was very good last night). I have not seen the Pack (under Capers) play much, if any, Cover 2 before, be interested to hear from Pack fans if they have recently.

Didn't think the officiating was great by any means, but as great a game as Matthews had, he was held about 1 in every 3 passing plays.

Congrats to the Pack, both teams 1-1, NFC West opponents coming up for both teams.

Great post! (And not just because of the Dustin Lyman reference)

The biggest issue I had with the Carimi penalty was that the ref (#98), as you can see in the replay, was looking RIGHT AT the shoving the entire time. Unless he had his eyes closed, there's no way he missed Hawk's initial shove.

Question: Why is a play like that not reviewable? I mean, it's the type of thing they look at in basketball and the refs obviously know the adage of "hit first then don't hit back." The Bears have benefitted many a-time so I'm not saying this because of this specific incident. It just seems like such a simple fix for something that probably happens at least once a week in the NFL.

[DegenerateDish]

Good call. The key to the Cover-2 is getting pressure with the front four. The Bears' most glaring weakness is protecting the passer. It makes sense that teams are going to bracket the big play WRs and take your chances with the Bears' o-line. Oh, and Kellen Davis really is brutal. If only they had a TE with some size and athleticism like, say, Greg Olson, for example.

On a sidenote, does Tice have any quick slants in his playbook? Those tend to kill the Bears in their Cover-2.

What's funny is they ran a bunch of slants against the Colts last week.

It's easy to play armchair QB, but what's frustrating is they didn't run any slants (that I can recall), only ran one or two pick plays, never made an effort to establish the run early, never threw a screen. When the Packers had success passing, it was Nelson going across the middle, or Driver on his TD doing the same thing. Perfect calls to attack the Cover 2. Also, that Cobb run (out of the H Back set) was outstanding. Why the Bears can't run something like that for Hester is beyond me.

[MerrittsMustache]

The packers were the better team last night, period. Just like the 49ers were the better team last Sunday, period. Why can't you just accept that. I ussually enjoy your analysis about everything MU but you are looking at last nights game through blue and orange glasses.

I never said that the Packers weren't the better team. They obviously were. I said that the Bears were awful, the Packers weren't a whole lot better (though still better) and there were some potentially game/momentum-changing calls that went in GB's favor.

[GGGG]

Few key turning points in that game:

-The 12 men on the field call was bogus, there was no way there was indisuputable evidence to overturn it. Not that it cost the Bears the game, but the game was really ugly for both teams at that point, led to first points of the game

-Carimi penalty was an absolute killer. Deserved to be called, second guy always gets flagged

-Fake FG was huge. Credit the Pack for running the exact same play from a few Bears/Pack games ago (Maynard/Lyman TD, exact same play). Bears were stacked heavy on the right side of the line, in full out FG block formation. Perfect call, perfect time by the Pack.

-Cutler's pick right before the half. Led to 3 more Pack points, huge.

-Marshall's TD drop. As poor as the game was at that point, if he hangs on, it's 13-7.

Blaming Cutler for the entire Bears shortcomings is shortsighted. He didn't play great by any means. The last pick hit the ground, shouldn't have been an INT (technically speaking it is correct), and Bennett killed him on that Woodson pick (just like James Jones killed Rodgers on his INT). Offensive line wasn't great by any means, but a few of those sacks have to go to the GB secondary, clearly coverage sacks.

Bears defense was great. Rodgers typically does not have great games against the Bears, and they pressured him a lot last night and forced a couple of TO's.

Credit the Pack for playing a ton of Cover 2 last night, that really is what decided that game. Their execution was outstanding (both defenses execution was very good last night). I have not seen the Pack (under Capers) play much, if any, Cover 2 before, be interested to hear from Pack fans if they have recently.

Didn't think the officiating was great by any means, but as great a game as Matthews had, he was held about 1 in every 3 passing plays.

Congrats to the Pack, both teams 1-1, NFC West opponents coming up for both teams.

Great summary Dish.  You are level headed about this kind of stuff and it is appreciated.

But one question...were the Packers playing a cover-2?  They had two safeties high, but I don't think it was a zone defense...and isn't the cover-2 only a zone?

That style might be hard for the Packers to replicate because I am not sure they are going to run into offensive lines as bad as the Bears' very much.  Packers got great pressure without blitzing.  

[MerrittsMustache]

What's funny is they ran a bunch of slants against the Colts last week.

It's easy to play armchair QB, but what's frustrating is they didn't run any slants (that I can recall), only ran one or two pick plays, never made an effort to establish the run early, never threw a screen. When the Packers had success passing, it was Nelson going across the middle, or Driver on his TD doing the same thing. Perfect calls to attack the Cover 2. Also, that Cobb run (out of the H Back set) was outstanding. Why the Bears can't run something like that for Hester is beyond me.

I believe they did throw one screen and Hawk sniffed it out. Or maybe that was just a dump-off. I can't remember exactly. Either way, I agree with your frustrations.

The Bears looked like they were trying to get into the middle of the zone with Kellen Davis but he's slow and bad and they were sending him more vertical right into the safeties than across into the open areas.

I said the exact same thing about Hester after the Cobb run.

So goes the life of a Bears fan...  

[hairy worthen]

Sure, I won't argue he wasn't a big reason for their loss. He underthrew Marshall on that Williams pick, he had Jeffrey as wide open as you can be in the end zone and never saw him, he made bad reads, didn't audible as much as he did against the Colts.

The only thing I find somewhat ironic is one of the other QB's in the league known for chewing out his offensive teammates is Rodgers. I'm not talking just about the Jones play last night, but within the league he too can/will speak his mind. Not as often as Cutler might, or as often as the cameras catch it.

Cutler is who he is, he's overly confident, not afraid to speak his mind. He's frustrated from getting knocked on his butt, he (to a fault) trusts his arm strength to be able to make any throw he thinks he can. It's his offense (for better or worse). Capers is his kryptonite, the guy calls great game plans against Cutler and his frustration boiled over.

I knew the Rodgers comparison was coming. The chewing out Rodgers does is different. It is not accompanied by the poutty body language, arrogant look on his face or forcing plays when he is frustrated that Cutler does/has.There is a difference between being competitive and a leader and being a whiney bitch.

[GGGG]

What's funny is they ran a bunch of slants against the Colts last week.

It's easy to play armchair QB, but what's frustrating is they didn't run any slants (that I can recall), only ran one or two pick plays, never made an effort to establish the run early, never threw a screen. When the Packers had success passing, it was Nelson going across the middle, or Driver on his TD doing the same thing. Perfect calls to attack the Cover 2. Also, that Cobb run (out of the H Back set) was outstanding. Why the Bears can't run something like that for Hester is beyond me.

Well, I don't think you are going to get a great deal of innovation out of Mike Tice.  I like the guy, but the first two weeks have been pretty vanilla.  It just really worked last week because the Colts are terrible.

[GGGG]

I knew the Rodgers comparison was coming. The chewing out Rodgers does is different. It is not accompanied by the poutty body language, arrogant look on his face or forcing plays when he is frustrated that Cutler does/has.There is a difference between being competitive and a leader and being a whiney bitch.

The biggest difference being the allegiance of the fan making the comparison.

[MerrittsMustache]

The biggest difference being the allegiance of the fan making the comparison.

Rodgers won a Super Bowl so he gets a pass.

If GB lost the SB to Pittsburgh (or sooner in the Playoffs) and then followed it up with a 15-1 season and one-and-done in the playoffs, he'd be in the Romo/Cutler category of QBs who can't get it done when it matters most.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Cutler pees sitting down. He has run through offensive coordinators like I run through toothpicks after a pulled pork and corn on the cob meal. Green Bay didn't give away the playbook on how to defend him, it is well known. Pressure him and the happy feet return with the poor mechanics throwing flatfooted or off his backfoot.  The three times the Bears ran a screen against the blitz, and the pass was deflected because of his bad mechanics. Three of his four picks were the same, with the fourth being on Bennett for not coming back to the ball. The Marshall drop could have been caught but the thrown arc of the pass was not ideal either.  

Last year it was because Martz's offense was too slow to develop with the Bears' crappy o-line (which they did nothing to improve this offseason).  With his guy Bates directing the offense now, what is Cutler's excuse?  Cutler simply holds the ball way too long and then makes bad decisions with bad mechanics instead of throwing the ball away. He had a lot of time to throw last night on many of the sacks/hurries.  In Denver, they rolled him out more as he is not a classic drop-back passer. Sick of his attitude during and after the games. And I am a Bears fan.

The replacement refs suck. Prolonged the game 30 extra minutes reviewing, trying to explain, and discussing basic plays on both sides. Love that McCarthy told them to play on during that last Bears' play where there was a pick/fourth down review.  

[DegenerateDish]

Great summary Dish.  You are level headed about this kind of stuff and it is appreciated.

But one question...were the Packers playing a cover-2?  They had two safeties high, but I don't think it was a zone defense...and isn't the cover-2 only a zone?

That style might be hard for the Packers to replicate because I am not sure they are going to run into offensive lines as bad as the Bears' very much.  Packers got great pressure without blitzing.  

It's a good question, it was more Cover 2 than Tampa 2, which the Bears play (where the safeties are much deeper). At least that's what I thought. Correct that Cover 2/Tampa 2 is zone coverage, I suppose it was more of a hybrid, because the corners were in man, but not pressing (because they knew they weren't going to get beat deep with the safety help).

It was brilliant by Capers though. He knew he could get pressure without blitzing (as you mentioned). When they did blitz, it worked too. I'm a Bears fan, but a football fan too, and have to respect that game plan on defense last night. As much as the Pack D has taken heat lately, great game plan and execution last night.

[hairy worthen]

The biggest difference being the allegiance of the fan making the comparison.

Obviously, but I bet if you asked 100 non packer or bear fans who is the better leader, 90% or more would pick Rodgers over Cutler.

[JWags85]

The biggest difference being the allegiance of the fan making the comparison.

This is a great point.  Cutler has a reputation among fans, for better or for worse, and really it seems like nothing he's gonna do short of winning a SB is gonna change that.  He gets sacked more than anyone in the league, pops back up, finally gets hurt and is called a quitter.  He gets on his line for blowing blocks and disrupting drives and he's called a crapty leader.  He went over to Marshall as he was sitting alone after blowing the TD catch to tell him to chin up and SC makes some dumb comment like "this is the leader they need".  Its all a frame of reference.

Obviously, but I bet if you asked 100 non packer or bear fans who is the better leader, 90% or more would pick Rodgers over Cutler.

But what does that prove?  Rodgers is the best QB in the league.  I have no problem admitting that.  Just because he's not Rodgers doesn't mean he's a terrible leader and he can't do some of the same things Rodgers does to motivate his team.