New Standards for hoops players

[forgetful]

What are Academic All-American standards? A 3.5? Shoot, I would have been considered a student at the minimum if I was an athlete I guess. I'm sure there have been plenty of successful non-athletes that didn't get a 3.5. Just because you aren't an Academic All-American doesn't mean that you aren't a solid student. I know of many players at MU that were very good, but not All-American players. It's different criteria, but being named a basketball All-American or achieving Academic All-American means you are elite, not that everyone else is just at the minimum.

Academic All-American is a 3.3.  Academic all conference is usually a 3.0.  

[Hoopaloop]

What are Academic All-American standards? A 3.5? Shoot, I would have been considered a student at the minimum if I was an athlete I guess. I'm sure there have been plenty of successful non-athletes that didn't get a 3.5. Just because you aren't an Academic All-American doesn't mean that you aren't a solid student. I know of many players at MU that were very good, but not All-American players. It's different criteria, but being named a basketball All-American or achieving Academic All-American means you are elite, not that everyone else is just at the minimum.

All Conference is merely a 3.0.  Academic All-American minimum of 3.30 and you go through a vetting process based on what the major is, etc.  You need to be nominated and then awarded by a committee.  The athlete must also play in 50% of the team's games.

Then why aren't their graduation rates better than ours?

They are not related, you should know that.  If one team of 12 players had 10 guys make All-Academic Big East but only those 10 graduated the grad rate would be 83.3%  Yet a different team could have 12 of 12 guys graduate with all of them carrying a 1.9 GPA.  End result, one team has a higher GPA and academic honorees and the other one has a higher graduation rate.

Additionally, the most current graduation rates are using 6 year averages that start back when Crean was still here.  The current rates start the average at 2004-05 and determine how many student athletes have graduated within 6 years.  

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/graphics/local/baskgradrates/index.html    

Later this month the 2010-2011 graduation rates will come out and the rolling average will start with the 2005-06 season.

A few things.  Saying that Bo doesn't recruit students at the minimum is a bit misleading.  Bo recruits from outside of the big cities in Wisconsin (he did recruit Vander).  In those areas they frankly don't give less than a C regardless of how poor of a student they were.  Grade inflation is rampant in suburbs and less so in the inner cities.  

Second, I would rather give a kid from a disadvantaged area a chance than requiring top grades.  Some of the brightest kids I worked with over the years are the ones you are saying to pass on and the worst people I have worked with are the academic all big 10 types.

The stories of success despite adversity are worth a ton more to me than PU's 7 academic all americans.  Also, as far as I'm aware the Big East hasn't announced their 2011-12 academic all-conference yet, so to claim we have 0 is just plain abusing statistics.

I have not said to pass on anyone.  I have said that the people here running around suggesting a program can't win with higher standards are wrong.  It is done all the time.  Grade inflation exists in city schools as well.  Don't think for a second it doesn't go on at MPS or any other major city school district.  In my experience, kids educated in the suburbs tend to get a better education than the inner city but that is not a universal truth, merely my experience.  You may encounter something different.


Two years ago MU had zero All-Big East academic student athletes.  Last year they had one - walkon Frozena.  You may be correct on this year.  If so, then I will make a retraction.  The Big Ten does Fall, Winter and Spring selections.

http://www.bigeast.org/portals/5/fls/19400/pdfs/Academics/2010-11/all_conference/marquette.pdf


Based on the fright here exhibited by some posters about some players maintaining a minimum standard, it appears that maybe the administration isn't wrong in desiring we recruit kids that won't be in a struggle every semester to hit that mark.

[NersEllenson]

Sorry but to compare recruiting to Marquette to Indiana, Purdue and Madison is an apples to oranges comparison.  Does MU have a football program?  Is MU the flagship university of its state?  Is MU located in a hoops hotbed state?  

MU's graduation rate of its players is commendable.  Just because MU may not have these Academic All Conference kids....who the f cares??  

I like the kids MU has turned out under Crean and Buzz - Were Wes, Jerel, Dom, Lazar Academic All Conference?  Were they bad kids?  Should we not have recruited them?  Jimmy Butler, Joe Fulce, Jae Crowder, Dwight Buycks?

Like I said, at the end of the day, who the f cares if these kids are Academic All Conference - by and large they are great kids that represent the university well.  Only a latent racist/elitist would object to the kids MU has had in its program over the last decade, yet moreso over the last 5 years.

[Hoopaloop]

Sorry but to compare recruiting to Marquette to Indiana, Purdue and Madison is an apples to oranges comparison.  Does MU have a football program?  Is MU the flagship university of its state?  Is MU located in a hoops hotbed state?  

MU's graduation rate of its players is commendable.  Just because MU may not have these Academic All Conference kids....who the f cares??  

I like the kids MU has turned out under Crean and Buzz - Were Wes, Jerel, Dom, Lazar Academic All Conference?  Were they bad kids?  Should we not have recruited them?  Jimmy Butler, Joe Fulce, Jae Crowder, Dwight Buycks?

Like I said, at the end of the day, who the f cares if these kids are Academic All Conference - by and large they are great kids that represent the university well.  Only a latent racist/elitist would object to the kids MU has had in its program over the last decade, yet moreso over the last 5 years.

Those were the three schools that Lenny's Tap offered as a comparison

Perhaps Father Pilarz is a racist, but I sincerely doubt it.  The race card is played by people when they have nothing else to argue.  It's the easiest fallback position out there and used at an alarming rate in society.

[NersEllenson]

The race card is played by people when they have nothing else to argue.  It's the easiest fallback position out there and used at an alarming rate in society.

Interesting to note the composition of the Wisconsin, Indiana and Purdue rosters you mention, and which players were Academic All Conference...pretty sure roughly 80% of them are white kids - most of which are walk on caliber/bit players at those schools...other than perhaps Hummel and Berggren.  Also interesting to note some here have long argued for MU to recruit more "traditionals," defined as guys who are very fundamentally sound, good shooters, good free throw shooters, etc.  Boy, that sure sounds a lot like the majority of the few white kids that are able to play college ball..

[chren21]

As I really think through the issue it comes down to this, in my mind.  How important is winning?   Personally, it's in my blood.  During the hoops season I live sleep and eat it.  I can talk and think about MU hoops at any moment in the day, and I assume many here feel the same way.  So do I want anyone to screw around with anything that might for an instant put a damper on Buzz's ability to keep the program on the path he has it?   NO, and I wrote this post in some dream state that maybe just maybe it could make some of the right people reconsider what effects they may or may not be having on Buzz's mental state / ability to be successful.  At the end of the day I have so much respect for Buzz and what he has done for our school and how he treats and his process of developing young men he has recruited (both on and off the court) that I firmly believe that no changes need to be made.  He has such the perfect combination of drive to be the absolute best hoops program in the country while also preparing and molding young adults into the best people he can it has given me even more pride in my Alma mater.  If you feel that Buzz's bosses need to be worried about more bad press or players getting in trouble then yes "restrictions" or "rules" should be put in place.  I just am not there and think it could lead to a big change in a short timeframe.  

Personally I think Buzz may be the perfect fit for our school. He has the most incredible gift of pleasing ALMOST everyone.  Time will tell, hopefully it is for a very very very long time.

[GGGG]

Ners I Actually by and large agree with you. I don't really care about players incoming credentials and if they make academic all conference as long as they legitimately progress and graduate. But it is unfair to say that only racists or elitists feel otherwise. Its not wrong to think that athletic teams should be more academically like the student body at large - just a differing opinion.

[cheebs09]

Academic All-American is a 3.3.  Academic all conference is usually a 3.0.  

Ok, thanks. I got the 3.5 off a guess and a not very reliable site. So that would tone down my argument, but still, there are plenty of people that aren't at those levels that are successful.

If all our players are hanging out in the 2.7 range, I'd say that's far from the minimum. There is a pretty wide gap between 2.0 and 3.0. As long as they are graduating and making use of their degree if they don't play professionally, I'm happy. Fulce wasn't academic All-Conference I believe, but based on the CNN article he is using his degree to further his future. That's all I ask for from the players. If they gain those honors great, but I won't look down on them for not reaching that level if they still graduate.

Also, when was the last time that we had someone suspended due to academic problems? Blackledge? Sure we may have a player now that is struggling, but to have one every few years is hardly an epidemic. The all-mighty UW had two of them in one season a few years ago.

[Hoopaloop]

But it is unfair to say that only racists or elitists feel otherwise. Its not wrong to think that athletic teams should be more academically like the student body at large - just a differing opinion.

+1

In my mind if Buzz's guys had stayed out of trouble and out of the headlines, this discussion at the administrative level would not be happening.  They let Buzz down.

What MU, Buzz and others ultimately decide to do is anyone's guess.  If the direction is to get stronger academically on the recruiting side, my faith in MU and Buzz to field a solid team is high.  If Buzz feels he can only win with kids at a lower academic benchmark this would surprise me, but if he were to leave there are other coaches that can make it happen at MU.  Too many resources to not succeed here.

[MUfan12]

I think taking the underclassmen out of Humphrey is absurd. The schools Buzz is recruiting against have an advantage already when it comes to apartments for athletes. Now you're going to downgrade that by putting them in a dorm room? If this is a response to the incidents last year, those could happened anywhere. And they can leave any building to go to the club. It's a ridiculous decision.

That said, ND has athletes in dorms...

[Hoopaloop]

I think taking the underclassmen out of Humphrey is absurd. The schools Buzz is recruiting against have an advantage already when it comes to apartments for athletes. Now you're going to downgrade that by putting them in a dorm room? If this is a response to the incidents last year, those could happened anywhere. And they can leave any building to go to the club. It's a ridiculous decision.

That said, ND has athletes in dorms...

Is any of this true or more internet rumors here?

[LloydMooresLegs]

Hoopaloop:  Here is the origin on this thread

2 very specific items I heard besides the GPA standards.  Hoops players will not be able to live in Humphrey until at least their junior year.  There will be some sort of board that will vote on potential borderline recruits including any junior college possibilities.  How will buzz react to different standards being put on Junior college players when he went to a JC?

[GGGG]

+1

In my mind if Buzz's guys had stayed out of trouble and out of the headlines, this discussion at the administrative level would not be happening.  They let Buzz down.

What MU, Buzz and others ultimately decide to do is anyone's guess.  If the direction is to get stronger academically on the recruiting side, my faith in MU and Buzz to field a solid team is high.  If Buzz feels he can only win with kids at a lower academic benchmark this would surprise me, but if he were to leave there are other coaches that can make it happen at MU.  Too many resources to not succeed here.

My goodness are we in the assumption making mode.

First, you have no idea if the players "being in the headlines" were the origins for this change.

Second, you have no idea if the change in academic standards is occurring.

[NersEllenson]

But it is unfair to say that only racists or elitists feel otherwise. Its not wrong to think that athletic teams should be more academically like the student body at large - just a differing opinion.

Bolded part definitely a good/fair point...however on the other, I do feel that when the basketball team is very unlike the student body at large - (90+% African American, and most* of whom come from single parent households, who live somewhere between the poverty line and middle class, come from poor public school systems, and many of whom will be the first college graduate in their family) - that it is unfair to expect them to be more academically like the student body at large...not to mention the enormous time commitment they put into basketball..

[NersEllenson]

+1

In my mind if Buzz's guys had stayed out of trouble and out of the headlines, this discussion at the administrative level would not be happening.  They let Buzz down.

What MU, Buzz and others ultimately decide to do is anyone's guess.  If the direction is to get stronger academically on the recruiting side, my faith in MU and Buzz to field a solid team is high.  If Buzz feels he can only win with kids at a lower academic benchmark this would surprise me, but if he were to leave there are other coaches that can make it happen at MU.  Too many resources to not succeed here.

So in your opinion, raising academic standards is likely to correlate to kids staying out of trouble (not going to bars, clubs, drinking, or getting into an occasional altercation)?  Do  "smart" kids not drink, go to bars, get into a fight once in their college career?  As for your rebuttal on the sex assault charges - let's remember no charges were filed, the player and girl had a previous sexual relationship, and the sex started as consensual...so quite a gray area with regard to something becoming rape/sex assault.

[Lennys Tap]

+1

In my mind if Buzz's guys had stayed out of trouble and out of the headlines, this discussion at the administrative level would not be happening. 

So you laugh at people with sources and call them names, Then you sum up the situation with "In my mind..." LOL. Sorry, but the "mind" you put on display here on a regular basis won't be enough to carry the day

[Pakuni]

Bolded part definitely a good/fair point...however on the other, I do feel that when the basketball team is very unlike the student body at large - (90+% African American, and most* of whom come from single parent households, who live somewhere between the poverty line and middle class, come from poor public school systems, and many of whom will be the first college graduate in their family) - that it is unfair to expect them to be more academically like the student body at large...not to mention the enormous time commitment they put into basketball..

Without wading into the socio-economic mess that this thread has devolved into (do most MU players really come from poor, single-parent households and lousy public school systems?) ... it would be remiss not to mention that while these kids do make an enormous time commitment to hoops, they also have huge academic advantages - personal tutors, private study facilities, access to data and technologies, etc. - that the average student does not. So, while it's totally accurate to say there are challenges, it's also fair to say there are special benefits as well to level the playing field.

[NersEllenson]

Without wading into the socio-economic mess that this thread has devolved into (do most MU players really come from poor, single-parent households and lousy public school systems?) ... it would be remiss not to mention that while these kids do make an enormous time commitment to hoops, they also have huge academic advantages - personal tutors, private study facilities, access to data and technologies, etc. - that the average student does not. So, while it's totally accurate to say there are challenges, it's also fair to say there are special benefits as well to level the playing field.

Absolutely fair - the special benefits with tutors, etc., needs to be mentioned.  However, if you look at the time away from school/class, the amount of practice time, strength and conditioning, etc. - it is very realistic to say these kids put in about 40 hours per week of time to their basketball...between games, travel, practice, etc - so therefore the special benefits are necessary.

As for the composition of MU's basketball team and their background...hard to quantify....but believe 90% of the kids fall into at least 1 of the categories I mentioned: single parent household, living between poverty line and middle class, attended public school in an urban environment, would be first in family to get college degree, etc.

At the end of the day, MU's players have generally represented MU very well, and to expect our kids to NEVER get into any kind of trouble is ridiculous...given they are 18-22 year old men...and like most in that age group...this is a time in life where many do get into a little trouble..

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

...given they are 18-22 year old men...and like most in that age group...this is a time in life where many do get into a little trouble..

I think every person in the world would agree with this.

The debate come over everybody's definition of "little trouble".

Sometimes, boys will be boys, and you just make them run in practice. Sometimes it's more serious. The line is not the same for everybody, and some bad press from high profile programs has blurred the line in the nation's conscience.

You don't want to be SMU, but you also don't want to handcuff these guys.

[Blackhat]

I think sexual assault is a good place to draw a line.  However the player wasn't convicted but we get another episode yeah I think they'd have to tighten up (curfew for guys, etc. think Williams is banking on increased grades taking care of I guess our "systemic problem".)   

Stuff like this happens at Michigan State, ND, etc.   Except those places stood behind their AD's, then again the guy who hired the AD was still there. (and spare me the gen counsel stuff, C-ham had been gone 3 years if the new gen councel can review policies and change them they should be held accountable.)

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I think sexual assault is a good place to draw a line.  However the player wasn't convicted but we get another episode yeah I think they'd have to tighten up (curfew for guys, etc. think Williams is banking on increased grades taking care of I guess our "systemic problem".)  

Stuff like this happens at Michigan State, ND, etc.   Except those places stood behind their AD's, then again the guy who hired the AD was still there. (and spare me the gen counsel stuff, C-ham had been gone 3 years if the new gen councel can review policies and change them they should be held accountable.)

Yea, I think the cumulative effect comes into play as well. Small stuff can add up over time.

Like, if your varsity football team is consistently getting into altercations at bar-time. It might not technically be illegal, and it might not even make the paper. But, if I'm the coach, I try to get that behavior under control because it's not magically going to go away or get better.

[NersEllenson]

Yea, I think the cumulative effect comes into play as well. Small stuff can add up over time.

Like, if your varsity football team is consistently getting into altercations at bar-time. It might not technically be illegal, and it might not even make the paper. But, if I'm the coach, I try to get that behavior under control because it's not magically going to go away or get better.

Key words bolded - player control is more the coaches responsibility than it is the athletic directors or BOT...yet a coach cannot be with their players 100% of the time.  The real measure should be, is the athlete population at MU getting in trouble at a greater rate than the rest of the student body...or if you want to dissect it further to basketball, does the basketball team get in more trouble than the general student body?  What is the incidence of fights among general student body?  Underage drinking?  Sexual assault allegations, etc.  If after all this administration and A.D., want the athletes (basketball team) to academically perform more like the general student body - shouldn't they too then be measured against the same conduct standards?  Pretty sure this would allow 90% of the basketball team to drink every weekend, etc.

[madtownwarrior]

As I really think through the issue it comes down to this, in my mind.  How important is winning?   Personally, it's in my blood.  During the hoops season I live sleep and eat it.  I can talk and think about MU hoops at any moment in the day, and I assume many here feel the same way.  So do I want anyone to screw around with anything that might for an instant put a damper on Buzz's ability to keep the program on the path he has it?   NO, and I wrote this post in some dream state that maybe just maybe it could make some of the right people reconsider what effects they may or may not be having on Buzz's mental state / ability to be successful.  At the end of the day I have so much respect for Buzz and what he has done for our school and how he treats and his process of developing young men he has recruited (both on and off the court) that I firmly believe that no changes need to be made.  He has such the perfect combination of drive to be the absolute best hoops program in the country while also preparing and molding young adults into the best people he can it has given me even more pride in my Alma mater.  If you feel that Buzz's bosses need to be worried about more bad press or players getting in trouble then yes "restrictions" or "rules" should be put in place.  I just am not there and think it could lead to a big change in a short timeframe.  

Personally I think Buzz may be the perfect fit for our school. He has the most incredible gift of pleasing ALMOST everyone.  Time will tell, hopefully it is for a very very very long time.

other than 2 sexual assault incidents, one major bar fight and an assault charge...

OK - I am not coming down on buzz, but take the blinders off...

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Key words bolded - player control is more the coaches responsibility than it is the athletic directors or BOT...yet a coach cannot be with their players 100% of the time.  The real measure should be, is the athlete population at MU getting in trouble at a greater rate than the rest of the student body...or if you want to dissect it further to basketball, does the basketball team get in more trouble than the general student body?  What is the incidence of fights among general student body?  Underage drinking?  Sexual assault allegations, etc.  If after all this administration and A.D., want the athletes (basketball team) to academically perform more like the general student body - shouldn't they too then be measured against the same conduct standards?  Pretty sure this would allow 90% of the basketball team to drink every weekend, etc.

I know where you are coming from...

But, when something goes "wrong" with a basketball player, and it comes out in the paper, is MU supposed to release an official statement saying "Other kids are doing it too?"

[cheebs09]

other than 2 sexual assault incidents allegations, one major bar fight (depending on who you believe, the video sure didn't signal a major bar fight) and an assault charge...

OK - I am not coming down on buzz, but take the blinders off...

You are looking at things from the most negative view of Marquette and I took the view of wearing Blue and Gold glasses. The truth is in the middle I'm sure. If anything close to the worst case scenario rumors of that bar fight happened, no way a certain player is not walking out in cuffs, no matter his supposed celeb status. Of the two sexual assault allegations and bar fight, the only citations were for being in a bar underage (yes I fully understand that it may have been difficult to move forward on the sexual assault allegations). Those are the facts we have to work with. Very few people know what else happened beyond that. So you may tell us to take the MU blinders off, but that doesn't mean you don't have another form of blinders on.