Flagrant Foul Rule

[cheebs09]

Seth Davis says that was the right call. I thought the rule was intent was a Flagrant 2, but there didn't need to be intent for a Flagrant 1. Heck, I think I remember Lazar getting a flagrant for swinging his elbows and not even making contact.

So what is the rule? Does anyone know? I couldn't hear the commentators well, but it sounded like they were debating 1 vs. 2 and surprised it wasn't called anything.

Edit to add: In no way am I blaming the game on this call or anything. I just don't know what the rule is. Also, to call it a basketball move is iffy. Jamil is much taller than this kid and was behind him. If Jamil was in a defensive stance and in front of him or on the side, I could buy it. Someone on twitter said that Boynton did a similar thing in the Norfolk State game, and this was kind of his MO.

[mu89]

I'm very curious about this as well. I thought that was a guaranteed 2 shots and the ball. Contact was definitely made. Not saying it would've changed the outcome but definitely a big call.

[mr.MUskie]

I'm very curious about this as well. I thought that was a guaranteed 2 shots and the ball. Contact was definitely made. Not saying it would've changed the outcome but definitely a big call.

Especially after that little slap (by DJO?) a couple minutes earlier.  Seemed like he just had his hand up guarding and the guy turned around and ran into him & they called the foul.  Then on this play the guy swings his arm HARD and up and no call at all?

[RubyWiscy]

Could have been a huge opportunity for MU to turn the game around.  Probably wouldn't disagree with the no-call so much if not for the DJO call which seemed similar in non-intent.

[damuts222]

In my opinion the ref's did not make the call because they knew of the possible implications it could have on the game. Essentially they didn't want to play a part in letting MU back in the game. That being said I have mixed emotions on what the call should have been and if Wilson was hit to begin with.

[Warrior3211]

I think this should have been called flagrant 1 and the DJO call with the slap to the head should have been a no call. How many times does that happen in a game and not get called?

I would never go out here saying the refs are the reason we lost, because we played horribly on both ends (minus Todd Mayo), but it just seemed suspicious to me that we weren't getting ANY calls in our favor.

The DJO traveling call in the second half was interesting because I thought he got shoved. Also, anytime they had camera angles under the basket it looked like our guys were just getting hacked on the boards, yet they called a very questionable over the back on Junior for his third foul.

[MUMac]

In my opinion the ref's did not make the call because they knew of the possible implications it could have on the game. Essentially they didn't want to play a part in letting MU back in the game. That being said I have mixed emotions on what the call should have been and if Wilson was hit to begin with.

Disagree.  That would not have stopped them from making the call.  The call should have been made.  He looked back when he swung.  Wilson is 4 or 5" taller than he is.  I thought it could have been a Flagrant 2.  I see no justification for it not being a Flagrant 1 at a minimum.

[copious1218]

In my opinion the ref's did not make the call because they knew of the possible implications it could have on the game. Essentially they didn't want to play a part in letting MU back in the game. That being said I have mixed emotions on what the call should have been and if Wilson was hit to begin with.

There is no question that he was hit.  

[LON]

There is no question that he was hit.  

Exactly.

If you didn't think he got hit, then you also probably think Greg Jennings didn't fumble that ball against the Giants.

[MerrittsMustache]

The officials flat-out got the call wrong. No conspiracy against MU. No attempt to avoid controversy. They just missed it, which is absolutely inconceivable given that they looked at the replay and the rule is very black-and-white.

Sometimes it's just not your night.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Disagree.  That would not have stopped them from making the call.  The call should have been made.  He looked back when he swung.  Wilson is 4 or 5" taller than he is.  I thought it could have been a Flagrant 2.  I see no justification for it not being a Flagrant 1 at a minimum.

Like.  The rule clearly states a Flag 1 is for any nonexcessive contact above the shoulder.  This was not incidental as the offender turned his body to give power as he raised his elbow to create contact.  The rule is very precise and leaves nothing to judgment.  I have no clue what Davis is thinking in his comments.  Teddy Valentine is known in the B1G for bringing his own rulebook.  I have seen Painter and Izzo go nuts on him at games I attended for his judgments this year on headscratchers.  

In a week where the NFL made a strong statement, on injuries this was a hard one to understand.  If Teddy grades out for another NCAA game, it will be mindboggling.  Why waste our time with a video review?

[MUMac]

Like.  The rule clearly states a Flag 1 is for any nonexcessive contact above the shoulder.  This was not incidental as the offender turned his body to give power as he raised his elbow to create contact.  The rule is very precise and leaves nothing to judgment.  I have no clue what Davis is thinking in his comments.  Teddy Valentine is known in the B1G for bringing his own rulebook.  I have seen Painter and Izzo go nuts on him at games I attended for his judgments this year on headscratchers.  

In a week where the NFL made a strong statement, on injuries this was a hard one to understand.  If Teddy grades out for another NCAA game, it will be mindboggling.  Why waste our time with a video review?

I cringed when I saw Valentine was officiating.  He is one of the truly awful officials.  I would prefer Burr, Higgins and Breeden to this buffoon any day. 

[MerrittsMustache]

I cringed when I saw Valentine was officiating.  He is one of the truly awful officials.  I would prefer Burr, Higgins and Breeden to this buffoon any day.  

Instead of Teddy V., I'd prefer to see players call their own fouls like on the playground.

[Benny B]

I'll summarize the thread and agree:

It should have been called a Flagrant 1.  But it's not an excuse for MU's loss.

[Coleman]

I'll summarize the thread and agree:

It should have been called a Flagrant 1.  But it's not an excuse for MU's loss.

+1

[Lennys Tap]

I'll summarize the thread and agree:

It should have been called a Flagrant 1.  But it's not an excuse for MU's loss.

1.True 2.True

[TallTitan34]

In my opinion the ref's did not make the call because they knew of the possible implications it could have on the game. Essentially they didn't want to play a part in letting MU back in the game. That being said I have mixed emotions on what the call should have been and if Wilson was hit to begin with.

They had no problem calling a lane violation on Notre Dame for a guy crossing the three point line to decide a game.

They've had no problem in the past saying a player stepped on the line on an inbounds pass to decide a game.

If something happens you have to call it no matter the situation.

[LON]

They had no problem calling a lane violation on Notre Dame for a guy crossing the three point line to decide a game.

They've had no problem in the past saying a player stepped on the line on an inbounds pass to decide a game.

If something happens you have to call it no matter the situation.

The worst part:  they made all those calls without the benefit of an HD flat screen in front of their faces.

And no, I'm not blaming refs.  But that no-call.  Just...yuck.

[PickNRoll]

I agree it should have been a Flagrant 1.  However, I'm guessing the refs relied on the following, which is from the NCAA rule book:

Major Officiating Concerns for Men

Flagrant 1 or Flagrant 2 Fouls for Elbow Contact
Officials are reminded that there can be incidental contact with the elbow above
or below the shoulders; swinging of the elbow is required for the foul to be
classified as a flagrant 1 or 2 foul. Some incidental contact is being penalized
improperly.

I think there was elbow swinging and it was more than incidental contact, bur unfortunately my opinion doesn't count.  Under this standard I think they also got the call on DJO wrong, as his contact was nothing compared to the elbow hitting Jamil.

[StillWarriors]

Definitely thought it was a Flagrant I. On the other hand, very fortunate Jamil didn't tear up his knee on that play the way it folded under him. That would have been a disaster. Love his potential. He has the capability to be as versatile as Jae with continued development in my opinion. Nice length with skills.

[TallTitan34]

At the least shouldn't it have been called a regular foul? 

They can't make it foul after reviewing it, but in live play it was clear what happened.

[Golden Avalanche]

The part that rankles me is the "basketball play" variation.

Certainly, I feel what Will Sheehy of Indiana did was more of a "basketball play" (the swinging of a ball up top to clear space) than what occurred last night. Movement in the trailing arm definitely happens. Swinging the trailing arm in a slapping motion as you clearly pass the attempted defender is not a "basketball play".
Of course, Sheehy was nailed with the Flagrant 1 which nearly cost his team the game whereas Boynton got away with no punishment.

Then again, it wasn't as bad a unnatural carnal knowledge up as those donkeys in the Louisville-State game where they couldn't even identify which Cards player should be taking foul shots. Officials suck.

[Skatastrophy]

I thought they Florida player contorted his body trying to get around Wilson while staying inbounds.  Once past Wilson he flailed his arms trying to keep his balance without losing the ball.  I'm sure we've all been off balance to the point that your arms do whatever is necessary to not fall over.  Wilson's face happened to be where that guy's arm needed to go to keep balance.

That being said.  Is an elbow to the face a foul no matter what?  If I'm playing hockey and I flail my stick around and pop somebody when I'm trying to keep my balance I'll get whistled for a high-stick.  Intent doesn't matter, it's a dangerous play.

[injuryBug]

the thing that makes it more than jsut a basketball move to me is the pure size of the players involved.  His elbow had to be extended very high to even reach Jamil's face.  If he was jumping for a rebound and his elbow came down on Jamil's head that is one thing, but he was trying to clear Jamil out which is a foul to begin with.

[CTWarrior]

Am I the only one that isn't sure there was contact?  Wilson's reaction seemed a little too late after the supposed elbow for it to be genuine.  I was hoping against hope they would give us that call, because if they did we suddenly had a chance to be down only 4 with the ball and plenty of time.  Seems to me the refs could not 100% confirm it and since that call would have been inordinately huge considering the consequences and game situation decided not to make the call.  So while I wanted that call, I don't feel like we got robbed.