Double Secret Probation

[Lighthouse 84]

I take it, then, that you would have no problem with your daughter chugging 12 beers at a frat house full of drunk, horny boys.

I agree Warriorchick.  I wouldn't want my daughter chugging 12 beers.  I didn't know many girls at MU who "chugged" 12 beers.  There were definitely some who could drink a lot, but not chug 12.  But for Hards, and many of us at MU back even longer ago than when he was there, 12 was a primer before we went out to the bars.  Guys would have case races.  MU had free block parties (until 1984 when Mike Poss ran the famous penny protest).  Vic, I can't believe the problems today are because the kids "are just getting really, really, drunk...a lot."  It can't be more than it was back in the day.

While I do agree that the drinking needs to be curtailed and cut down from when we were there, I'm with Tower.  What happened to just helping a roommate to his bed and having him sleep it off?

[GGGG]

What I don't understand is why they would do it. All MU just did (beyond pissing off some of their Greek students) is make the alums who were Greek not feel wanted my their university. I wouldn't give money to MU right now. They are trying to eliminate the organization that I felt defined a large part of my college experience.

In the long run, eliminating the Greeks is the best thing for MU simply because of this attitude.  Not saying your experiences are misguided or wrong, but in my experience in higher ed outside of MU, the Greek system and Greek alumni are a hinderence for universities more than they are a help.

[warriorchick]

  MU had free block parties (until 1984 when Mike Poss ran the famous penny protest). 

Don't remind me.  I was an ASMU Treasurer that year and I missed the entire block party because I had to count all those f*cking pennies.

[Lighthouse 84]

Don't remind me.  I was an ASMU Treasurer that year and I missed the entire block party because I had to count all those f*cking pennies.

Good times.....good times.


Did you ever make it over to the Lighthouse back in the day Warriorchick?

[warriorchick]

Good times.....good times.


Did you ever make it over to the Lighthouse back in the day Warriorchick?

If I did, I was too drunk to remember.....

[MUSig54]

I take it, then, that you would have no problem with your daughter chugging 12 beers at a frat house full of drunk, horny boys.

Good lord, no! I'd want her chugging those 12 beers at a non-greek house party full of drunk, horny boys!

[🏀]

Good lord, no! I'd want her chugging those 12 beers at a non-greek house party full of drunk, horny boys!

Probably better, frats are filled with deviant sexual predators. Right?

[warriorchick]

Good lord, no! I'd want her chugging those 12 beers at a non-greek house party full of drunk, horny boys!

Well, then, let's put her in the Wayback Machine, crank it back 28 years, and send her to the Lighthouse.

Lighthouse84: she's all yours, buddy.   

[Tommy Brice for Coach]

I take it, then, that you would have no problem with your daughter chugging 12 beers at a frat house full of drunk, horny boys.

I hate to say this - but it doesn't matter if it is a frat house or not. There are drunk, horny boys everywhere on and off campus on a Friday or Saturday night. Could be a house party, could be a bar, could be a frat house, too.

If I was a parent, I'd want my daughter somewhere with some sort of rules - where there is less of a chance of her getting black out drunk. The bar is a good place for that - there are laws against over serving patrons, plus there is a cost to each drink. A frat party is second to that in terms of control - there are rules, and you generally need to know someone that lives there to get a beer. Beer is only given in exchange for a ticket and a patron can only get one beer at a time. Now, while these rules are sometimes not followed, it is much better/safer than a house party at 19th and Kilbourn, which has no rules at all, and binge drinking is encouraged.

Maybe this is harsh to say, but if your daughter (or son for that matter) is chugging 12 beers on a regular basis, something bad could happen anywhere. Doesn't matter if it is at a frat house or not. I'd argue that with the MU imposed rules, it is LESS likely to happen in a frat house. I'd argue the real problem is college students chugging 12 beers - though, IMO that is much more of a societal thing related to the drinking age. But this is not a politics forum, so I will leave that issue there.
 

[tower912]

  There have been drunk horny college boys since there has been college, alcohol, and women.   The nature of young people hasn't changed over the centuries.      Teenagers have been having sex as long as there has been teenagers and sex.     The difference is how it is covered by the media and viewed by the adults in society who did nearly the same thing when they were young. 

[Henry Sugar]

Probably better, frats are filled with deviant sexual predators. Right?

you missed the part where all frat guys are given roofies and special predator training as part of the Initiation ceremony.

A frat party is second to that in terms of control - there are rules, and you generally need to know someone that lives there to get a beer. Beer is only given in exchange for a ticket and a patron can only get one beer at a time. Now, while these rules are sometimes not followed, it is much better/safer than a house party at 19th and Kilbourn, which has no rules at all, and binge drinking is encouraged.

Are those really the current rules?  That blows.  I miss the days of picking up a keg on Friday night and making a few calls.*

*Those actions may have resulted in my house being put on probation as well.

[MUBurrow]

I hate to say this - but it doesn't matter if it is a frat house or not. There are drunk, horny boys everywhere on and off campus on a Friday or Saturday night.

A frat party is second to that in terms of control - there are rules, and you generally need to know someone that lives there to get a beer. Beer is only given in exchange for a ticket and a patron can only get one beer at a time.

I can back a lot of this up as definitely true. As a guy, I was never much a fan of the frats, but in terms of how they handle drinking, its definitely more locked down than non-frat free for alls.  I remember one of the few times I walked into a frat party and some guy at the front handed me a couple of tickets, and I looked at him and said something like "what the ** is this?"  Further, Mrs Burrow was a sorority girl, and I remember how hard/expensive it was to drink at formals/semi formals. Got her into trouble drinking on the bus, had to pay like $7/beer at the formal, had a hell of a time sneaking her underage brother said-bradley-center-priced-beers, etc etc. Much harder to get totally destroyed at greek events.

[MUSig54]

Those have been the rules since about 2004-2005 or so. Don't know how much it's being followed lately, but as I was president of my chapter when the new rules went in, we were pretty strict about it for the next year or so up until I graduated.

And don't get me started on those damn lists of guests.

[warriorchick]

I hate to say this - but it doesn't matter if it is a frat house or not. There are drunk, horny boys everywhere on and off campus on a Friday or Saturday night. Could be a house party, could be a bar, could be a frat house, too.

If I was a parent, I'd want my daughter somewhere with some sort of rules - where there is less of a chance of her getting black out drunk. The bar is a good place for that - there are laws against over serving patrons, plus there is a cost to each drink. A frat party is second to that in terms of control - there are rules, and you generally need to know someone that lives there to get a beer. Beer is only given in exchange for a ticket and a patron can only get one beer at a time. Now, while these rules are sometimes not followed, it is much better/safer than a house party at 19th and Kilbourn, which has no rules at all, and binge drinking is encouraged.

Maybe this is harsh to say, but if your daughter (or son for that matter) is chugging 12 beers on a regular basis, something bad could happen anywhere. Doesn't matter if it is at a frat house or not. I'd argue that with the MU imposed rules, it is LESS likely to happen in a frat house. I'd argue the real problem is college students chugging 12 beers - though, IMO that is much more of a societal thing related to the drinking age. But this is not a politics forum, so I will leave that issue there.
 

I wasn't actually trying to make a point about frat houses.  I was trying to make a point about people like Hards_Alumni who have the attitude that those who don't binge drink often enough to build up a significant tolerance should be objects of ridicule.  Yes, most (if not all) of us on this board have over-imbibed, especially at college.  But calling those who can't or won't "wimps" or worse is something most of us stopped doing when we became mature adults.  Yes, this was tons of binge drinking back in the olden days, and I have occasionally cracked jokes about drinking with my college-aged daughter, but that still doesn't mean I haven't had the conversations about acting responsibly.

[Tommy Brice for Coach]

I wasn't actually trying to make a point about frat houses.  I was trying to make a point about people like Hards_Alumni who have the attitude that those who don't binge drink often enough to build up a significant tolerance should be objects of ridicule.  Yes, most (if not all) of us on this board have over-imbibed, especially at college.  But calling those who can't or won't "wimps" or worse is something most of us stopped doing when we became mature adults.  Yes, this was tons of binge drinking back in the olden days, and I have occasionally cracked jokes about drinking with my college-aged daughter, but that stll doesn't mean I haven't had the conversations about acting responsibly.

+1

I agree with you. The attitude that you must binge drink to enjoy college absolutely needs to go. It's ok to go all out once in a while, but the culture is changing so that you need to go all out every single weekend.

[tower912]

I disagree that this is a culture change.   I knew many people, dorm dwellers all, whose sole plan was to plan their weekend benders.   I didn't spend too much time doing that because I always worked on the weekends.    But I knew many people who engaged in case-races.   I knew one guy who would buy a pitcher of beer, pour you a glass out of it, and then bet he could chug the rest of the pitcher before you chugged your glass.    Dollar imports, quarter taps, weekend starting on Wednesday.   I knew one girl who went out every night of her final semester in college.    No matter how many ways you argue it, the nature of college drinking is not significantly different than it was a generation ago. 

[Tommy Brice for Coach]

In the long run, eliminating the Greeks is the best thing for MU simply because of this attitude.  Not saying your experiences are misguided or wrong, but in my experience in higher ed outside of MU, the Greek system and Greek alumni are a hinderence for universities more than they are a help.

This is interesting to me - something I haven't thought about before. I do think the Greek community usually has an attitude that the university is trying to keep them down (and maybe I'm exhibiting it a little ). I've found that this attitude goes beyond MU. I've met guys in my fraternity from other schools, and they all say that their university is against them - even at schools with very lax rules and large Greek systems like Illinois.

Sultan, I'm curious - does this attitude extend to alums of other campus groups? I'd imagine that people who were in Chorus/Club Sports/Service Organizations/etc all want to see MU support their organization, and would have a fit too if the university did something that stifled it.

[Steve Buscemi]

12 was a primer

Still is.

[GGGG]

Sultan, I'm curious - does this attitude extend to alums of other campus groups? I'd imagine that people who were in Chorus/Club Sports/Service Organizations/etc all want to see MU support their organization, and would have a fit too if the university did something that stifled it.

Well, let me put it this way, and I don't want you to be offended by this...

A lot of schools view Greeks as a headache.  They rarely grab headlines in a positive way. Back in the day, it was a great way for students to get involved and serve, but now there are all sorts of way for students to give back.  Just look at the student orgs that are now active at Marquette.  And look at all the service they perform.  But very rarely do they get in trouble for drinking, etc.  (Probably because they don't have a house in which to do so.)

An example.  A frat does a positive, community service project, and afterwards goes back to their house and has a big party that gets busted.  Now, the student finance association goes out and does a positive, community service project, goes back to the apartment of a member and has a big party that gets busted.  

Which one will be seen as being under the guise of a student organization?  Likely just the former.

[Tommy Brice for Coach]

Well, let me put it this way, and I don't want you to be offended by this...

A lot of schools view Greeks as a headache.  They rarely grab headlines in a positive way. Back in the day, it was a great way for students to get involved and serve, but now there are all sorts of way for students to give back.  Just look at the student orgs that are now active at Marquette.  And look at all the service they perform.  But very rarely do they get in trouble for drinking, etc.  (Probably because they don't have a house in which to do so.)

An example.  A frat does a positive, community service project, and afterwards goes back to their house and has a big party that gets busted.  Now, the student finance association goes out and does a positive, community service project, goes back to the apartment of a member and has a big party that gets busted.  

Which one will be seen as being under the guise of a student organization?  Likely just the former.

Definitely not offended. Was really looking for your thoughts on the issue, and they are much appreciated. I see how they are interpreted as a headache to a university. If they are such a headache, why doesn't MU just come down and get rid of them already then - instead of treating them like second class organizations? In your opinion, what's keeping them from doing this?

(I'd just like to point out that I'm not advocating that, as I was Greek and feel like MU would lose a vibrant group of students from that decision.)

[MUSig54]

Back when I was the Greek Programming Assistant for OSD (it was a student position), the question was asked why OSD was so anti-Greek. Their response was always "If we really wanted to get rid of greek life, we'd have done so already."

Take it with a grain of salt, of course, but Marquette could easily just get rid of Greek Life if they wanted to. The fact that they haven't means that they either recognize some positives with having a greek community. Or just want to avoid any possible bad PR with just getting rid of 15 or so student orgs with the flip of a switch.

[GGGG]

Take it with a grain of salt, of course, but Marquette could easily just get rid of Greek Life if they wanted to. The fact that they haven't means that they either recognize some positives with having a greek community. Or just want to avoid any possible bad PR with just getting rid of 15 or so student orgs with the flip of a switch.

Ding, Ding, Ding!!!!

Banning means negative PR on Marquette.  Saying they violated rules make it the Greek orgs fault.

[Henry Sugar]

Ding, Ding, Ding!!!!

Banning means negative PR on Marquette.  Saying they violated rules make it the Greek orgs fault.

We all know that Marquette has a problem with negative PR issues and how to handle them.

[Tommy Brice for Coach]

We all know that Marquette has a problem with negative PR issues and how to handle them.

What are you talking about!? I think MU is great at handling PR...

[Hards Alumni]

I take it, then, that you would have no problem with your daughter chugging 12 beers at a frat house full of drunk, horny boys.

That is a really nice straw man you set up there.