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Author Topic: Al Quida !  (Read 17305 times)

Murffieus

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Re: Al Quida !
« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2007, 08:25:37 AM »
Al Quida is just one part of "Radical Islam". Saddam was a huge terrorist as well and was no friend of the the USA----tried to kill Bush senior in Kuwaitt in 1993, was paying hefty stipends to Palestinian suicide bomber families in very public ceromonies----had used WMD on the Kurds----was harboring Answar al Islam a terrorist group in northern Iraq (who are still active in Iraq).

Let's face it----things weren't going to get better with Saddam!

GWB has decimated Al Quida-----has caught or killed most of the top leadership except for Bin Laden and Zwahari. Taking the offense in Iraq and Afghanistan and the Patriot Act----have kept us 100% free of Radial Islam terrorism domestically since 9/11.

BTW----Radical Islam did indeed attack us on 9/11------please don't deny that Saddam wasn't part of "radical islam jihadism"! One mistake here is that you are looking at this country by country with border separation------radical islam knows no borders------this is a different enemy!

tower912

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Re: Al Quida !
« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2007, 09:36:20 AM »
Northern Iraq was under Kurd and UN control.   Saddam was a secular thug who had as much animosity and fear of al qaeda as we do.   bin Laden wanted Saddam gone almost as badly as GWB did.   The only two things they had in common was the region of the world they were born in and the USA as an enemy.    Just because Larry Flynt and Pat Robertson both defend the first amendment does not make them allies.   
We have been attacked before, we will be attacked again.  We have been attacked by radical Christians, government haters, loners with an axe to grind as well as muslim extremists.   We have survived all of them.   The only way to truly defeat America is to take away the freedoms and ideals that make America great. Radical Islam is an idea.   Defeating an idea with guns never works.   You defeat an idea by showing it for the folly it is and that you are not the devil it claims.   BTW, it looks like GWB is going to give the surge until fall to work and then look to cut and run himself.  Then what will you do, Murf?
al Qaeda, or a version of it, will always exist, just like the KKK, or organized crime.   Extremists of all religions have existed throughout existence.   Those who distort religion to promote violence and hatred have always and will always exist.    It is the dark side of the nature of human existence.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2007, 10:03:59 AM by tower912 »
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

Murffieus

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Re: Al Quida !
« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2007, 12:57:18 PM »
1)  "defeat an idea by showing what folly it really is" ?

That would be nice, but just how do you propose to go about doing that?

2) "GWB take until the fall to work"-----where do you see that? If that's the case why is he fighting the Dems on a troop withdrawal?

3) Don't you think that Al Quida and other forms of Radical Islam in the age of Nuke proliferation are much bigger threats to national security than the "KKK or organized crime"?????



nathanziarek

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Re: Al Quida !
« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2007, 09:16:16 PM »

Gonna have to agree with Tower, here.

You can't fight an emotion (War on Terror) and you can't beat terrorism. A terrorist is one guy with a bomb strapped to his chest in the middle of the mall. No amount of preparedness or Homeland Security can prevent that.

You _may_ be able to take down individual groups, but we've been told since the beginning that the strength of Al-Qaeda lies in the complete lack of central authority and financing. Let's pretend that we kill the "top" 100 members of Al-Qaeda. Does that kill Al-Qaeda? Now let's say yes, it does kill the organization. Does it kill the hatred these radicals feel for western civilization? No. And if just one decides to wire up some C4 and go for a walk through some populated area, lives are lost.

For all your talk of this being a "different" kind of war, Murf, you are treating it like that same old thing. A typical war against a country (that did not harbor the terrorists this thread is titled after) is not going to win this battle. Destroying a few "key" people won't help much either.

The only that'll help is changing the minds of these people. Short of that, we need to sniff out each and every "plot" and stop it. Maybe we are occupying Al-Qaeda right now in Iraq. Remember the war has been to the tune of nearly 4,000 troops and who knows how many innocent Iraqis. I do not believe that this war has staved off another attack on US soil, but even if it has, look at the cost.

Stephen Colbert said it best, "This presidet is steady. He believes the same thing on Wednesday that he believed on Monday...No matter what happened on Tuesday." I never liked this president, I won't lie. But it seems as if everyone that is for the war says "its different after 9/11 and this is a new type of war" while simultaneously praising the president for remaining vigilant in fighting the same old war.

I just don't get it...
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tower912

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Re: Al Quida !
« Reply #29 on: April 29, 2007, 07:48:36 AM »
GWB giving the surge until fall was on the front page of my local paper yesterday from an AP article.
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

Murffieus

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Re: Al Quida !
« Reply #30 on: April 29, 2007, 08:43:45 PM »
Nathan----you say essentially the same thing as tower that an idea has to be fought with a better idea "to show the folly of their idea"--------as I say that sounds good, but as a practical better how is this executed-------I mean we're dealing with emotional nuts here that saw off peoples heads and give up their own lives in suicide bombings for "72 virgins"----meanwhile these religious emotional nuts are being programmed by the radical Shieks and Mullahs-----the moderate muslims are afraid to intervene less they get their heads chopped off-----so please tell me----how to you beat this with ideas????????

Tower chose not to answer that question----maybe you can!

nathanziarek

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Re: Al Quida !
« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2007, 09:00:25 PM »
Sorry, Murf, I can't. I'm guesing Tower can't either.

What I know is that everyone is telling us that this not a typical war and not an ordinary enemy. And yet, some seem determined to defend the fighting of this war in a completely conventional manner.

I don't know how you win the actual war against radical Islam. But I can't imagine how anyone thinks you will make some one hate you less by beating on them. We need someone less blood thirsty in the office to try new options. Yeah, they might fail, but our current actions are nearly* guaranteed to.

* I suppose we could someone manage to kill anyone with a negative feeling about western civilization, and in that, this war might solve something.

Nate
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Murffieus

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Re: Al Quida !
« Reply #32 on: April 30, 2007, 11:07:27 AM »
We tried a different option under the Clinton regieme-----and that option was strictly defensive while treating domestic terrorism strictly as a law enforcement problem (as opposed to a military problem). So what was the answer from Radical Islam-----nothing less than 9/11.

So now GWB throws out defense and takes the offensive----it's no longer considered to be a "law enforcement problem" but a "military" one. But now as the memories of 9/11 fade, many don't like that either and now want to go back to defense or at least a much less combative posture (pull out of Iraq where we are confronting Al Quida). After that, if thinks heat up in Afghanistan (which they are bound to)----there will be pressure to get out of there too.

IMO under a less combative posture Radical Islam (Al Quida included) will regroup and hit us harder than 9/11----they are bound and determined to do us in----it's a religious thing----they've told us the only thing that will save us is to convert to Islam-----I don't know about you----but I don't want any part of Islam-----and I think I'm in the vast majority on that!

rocky_warrior

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Re: Al Quida !
« Reply #33 on: April 30, 2007, 11:46:38 AM »
We tried a different option under the Clinton regieme-----and that option was strictly defensive while treating domestic terrorism strictly as a law enforcement problem (as opposed to a military problem). So what was the answer from Radical Islam-----nothing less than 9/11.

Wow, I've heard lots of crazy conspiracy theories on 9/11, and seen lots of fingers pointed.  But now it's Clinton's fault we were attacked while GWB was in office?  Would you care to lay out the details of this theory of yours?  Perhaps make a movie, we'll call it "Murff's Pocket Change".

BTW, any religion believes that in order to be saved you need to convert.  Yup, that includes Christianity.  Islam is no different.  Much of this war has been focused against Muslims - it's easy to see why they want us out of the area, or even better, dead.   We've killed thousands upon thousands of Muslims in this war - If I were Muslim I'd be incited to.  And why did we kill them?  Because Saddam had WMDs, or could make WMDs?  No, he didn't, so now we're doing it to remove the Terrorists from Iraq.  Guess what?  We created the terrorists in Iraq, and the more we fight, the more we encounter.  Coincidence?  Not Likely.

Spreading your propaganda that exiting this war in Iraq will lead to more violence at home is rediculous.  Bring our boys home, protect *our* country, and put some of this war money into building businesses in the USA.

Oh and while we're at it, maybe we can find someone to finish the job and take out Bin Laden.
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augoman

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Re: Al Quida !
« Reply #34 on: April 30, 2007, 12:35:43 PM »
wow, Rocky, you mean that, had Clinton treated the first WTC attack with a normal reaction and gone after Bin Laden (or merely accepted his head when offerred), then the second WTC attack would still have occurred?

nathanziarek

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Re: Al Quida !
« Reply #35 on: April 30, 2007, 12:49:13 PM »
It is possible, who knows? Al Qaeda isnt run by bin Laden. The cells work autonomously, which is why they are so hard to track down.

I've never once blamed W for the 9/11 attacks. I'm a pretty firm believer that it is easy to terrorize (even on such a grand scale). What I blame Bush for is his response to the attack, which was to attack a country that had NOTHING to do with the towers. There wasn't even an Iraqi hijacker.

In hindsight, the Clinton administration shouldn't have attempted to deal in back channels for someone who turned out to be such an important figure in this new war. They didn't have the luxury of knowing what we know now. Still, a bit naive to assume that simply capturing Bin Laden would have prevented all terrorism moving forward.
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Murffieus

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Re: Al Quida !
« Reply #36 on: April 30, 2007, 02:47:36 PM »
Nathan----at the time of 9/11 Al Quida was an autonomous group with Bin Laden pulling the strings----post 9/11 a different story as GWB decimated it's leadership right under Bin Laden and at the same time isolated Bin Laden so he couldn't communicate with the cells as he did pre 9/11.

Now cells are calling their own shots pretty much (e.g. Al Quida in Iraq).

However with the first twin tower attack, the attack on the USS Cole and our embassies in Africa it should have been a signal to the Clinton Administration that we have a military problem and not a domestic law enforcement problem----Clinton did attackan Al Quida camp in Afghanistan and a supposed Al Quida Chemical plant in the Sudan-----but whether or not this was done more to diffuse attention off the Monica Lewinski thing or actually taking decisive MILITARY action against Al Quida is still an unanswered question.

Mayor McCheese

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Re: Al Quida !
« Reply #37 on: April 30, 2007, 03:40:14 PM »
Nathan----at the time of 9/11 Al Quida was an autonomous group with Bin Laden pulling the strings----post 9/11 a different story as GWB decimated it's leadership right under Bin Laden and at the same time isolated Bin Laden so he couldn't communicate with the cells as he did pre 9/11.

Now cells are calling their own shots pretty much (e.g. Al Quida in Iraq).

However with the first twin tower attack, the attack on the USS Cole and our embassies in Africa it should have been a signal to the Clinton Administration that we have a military problem and not a domestic law enforcement problem----Clinton did attackan Al Quida camp in Afghanistan and a supposed Al Quida Chemical plant in the Sudan-----but whether or not this was done more to diffuse attention off the Monica Lewinski thing or actually taking decisive MILITARY action against Al Quida is still an unanswered question.

ever hear of the Spanish-American War, where we started a war overa battleship being blown up, the USS Maine... thinking it was Spain, but in fact was just the ship blowing up internally... I dont remember if the Cole was terrorist or not(probably was)... but a small terrorist group is no reason to attack an entire nation... sorry, radical islam and Al Quida is only a small fraction of the population, that is like attacking America over the radical Baptist Churches in the South... or attacking Ireland due to the terrorist groups attacking Britain for years... why don't you ever talk about them, they are just as much of a problem as Al Quida, and have been doing it for longer, yet us as Americans look away... or how about the Genocides in Africa... if it doesn't hurt us getting oil these days, America seems to turn its head, thanks to the government and our presidents deep ties to oil
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rocky_warrior

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Re: Al Quida !
« Reply #38 on: April 30, 2007, 06:47:10 PM »
wow, Rocky, you mean that, had Clinton treated the first WTC attack with a normal reaction and gone after Bin Laden (or merely accepted his head when offerred), then the second WTC attack would still have occurred?

I'm a fair and reasonable person.  The attacks may still have occurred, they may not have - I don't know.  I do blame Clinton for not taking out Bin Laden while he was in office.  Similarly, I blame GWB for not getting him now. 

Maybe I'm more bitter at GWB because of the amount of money he's used to try to accomplish the task.  A trillion or two plus a few thousand lives versus a few Tomahawks at $500,000 each (yes, I know, that was after embassy bombings in 1998, not after the 93 WTC attack).

Anyhow, I'll sign off the political discussions for a while.  I really do find them to be a waste of time.  Very rarely does anyone spout anything new (myself included), and I've never been able to change someone's mind  :P
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nathanziarek

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Re: Al Quida !
« Reply #39 on: April 30, 2007, 07:08:08 PM »
I'm following you Rocky...my wife called me a bad, bad name for continuing this debate on MUScoop...and she's right.

But first,

Quote
but whether or not this was done more to diffuse attention off the Monica Lewinski thing or actually taking decisive MILITARY action against Al Quida is still an unanswered question

And whether or not Bush invading Iraq was more to diffuse attention from the PDB titled "Bin Laden determined to attack on American soil" or the weak economy or based on his neocon buddies simply wanting to attack Iraq for the last 10 years is still an unanswered question.

I think the facts prove that you are almost entirely wrong about Al Qaeda pre W's decimation of their leadership. But, who cares. Facts don't matter here.

I will readily admit that the Clinton Administration should have taken the opportunity to take Bin Laden into custody, but that is entirely in hindsight. In fact, when Bush took office, he was warned that Bin Laden was the largest threat facing the country. Even Clinton will admit that he should have pushed harder for Bin Laden. I don't know why, but it didn't happen (deals were there, but the underground negotiations never panned out).

Can you admit that Iraq has nothing to do with 9/11? Can you admit that the administration knew that going in? Can you admit that we've spent -- in dollars and human life -- untold amounts because our president made a grave error in judgement and repeatedly refused to admit that mistake? "Stay the course!"

I generally disagree with the cut-and-run mentality because I feel like we broke it, we brought it. That said, there have been a ton of respected opinions stating that leaving Iraq now could actually make it stronger than with us there. In that case it isn't "cut-and-run", it is simply the right thing to do.

I'm out Murf! It's been frustrating but fun!

Nate
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Murffieus

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Re: Al Quida !
« Reply #40 on: April 30, 2007, 07:51:06 PM »
It shouldn't be called "cut & run"----it should be called what it is "surrender".

Al Quida is provoking sectarian violence by bombing mosques and attacking sectarian civilian groups mainly crapes who in turn retaliate against suuni civilians. We "cut & run" Al Quida wins----it's ranks swell, money pours in, and they have a new training ground from which to train and plan attacks on America as in afghanistan pre 9/11.

Then the next war in retaliation for those attacks costs even MORE lives!

Democrat Sen Lieberman is 100% correct-----draw a line in the sand right here in afghanistan and Iraq!
« Last Edit: April 30, 2007, 07:53:05 PM by Murffieus »

nathanziarek

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Re: Al Quida !
« Reply #41 on: April 30, 2007, 08:44:22 PM »
dang it, you dragged me back.

ever think that this new training ground wouldn't exist hadn't we invaded and completely distroyed any sense of civility in the area?

hmm...
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Murffieus

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Re: Al Quida !
« Reply #42 on: April 30, 2007, 08:54:18 PM »
Well we're there now----so whether or not we should or should not have invaded is a moot point!

tower912

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Re: Al Quida !
« Reply #43 on: May 04, 2007, 07:08:15 PM »
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/story/0,,-6606115,00.html

And this is why terrorism will always be with us, behind one mask or another.      Another attack here is inevitable.   That is the premise we work under when we do our annual multi-jurisdictional, multi-agency tabletop simulations, bomb scares, chemical spill or attack training.    Even my medium sized midwestern city expects it to happen here sometime.   Will it be al Qaeda, another McVeigh trying to start a race war, militia types, or a loner with anthrax or a gun?   Why should we be exempt from what the rest of the world experiences?
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

Murffieus

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Re: Al Quida !
« Reply #44 on: May 04, 2007, 08:28:57 PM »
Would be nice to get BinLaden----but radical Islam is bigger than Bin Laden. Getting BinLaden will not end this war----in fact Bin Laden might then turn out to be a martyr and make our job tougher----right now he's incommunicado in some cave in Pakistan which at this time is off limits to us. We can't incite the Pakistan citizenry------this is a very pivotable situation as Pakistan has nukes----and if Musharrif gets overthrown by radicals and they get nukes-----the ante in this war acccelerates tremendously!

 

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