collapse

* Recent Posts

Please Register - It's FREE!

The absolute only thing required for this FREE registration is a valid e-mail address.  We keep all your information confidential and will NEVER give or sell it to anyone else.
Login to get rid of this box (and ads) , or register NOW!


Author Topic: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...  (Read 22099 times)

ecompt

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 3339
Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« on: April 13, 2007, 10:28:55 PM »
she accepted $800,000 from a hip-hop star (Timbaland) who hosted a fundraiser at his home in Miami. Two weeks later she calls Imus a bigot. If you want to look at Timbaland's lyrics, look them up on any search engine. He makes Imus sound like Mother Teresa. Hillary is the ultimate sleazebag hypocrite.

Murffieus

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 899
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2007, 01:52:43 PM »
ecompt----on this you and I can agree-----I can't imagine that she will be the first women president----too much baggage!

nathanziarek

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 612
    • Late to the Party
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2007, 03:42:22 PM »
Well, in that case, good luck voting for anyone. They are politicians. Speaking out of both sides of their mouth is, sometimes, the only talent these people have.

My guess: Edwards v. Romney in 2008 with Edwards on top. I'm a pretty staunch Liberal and I just don't like the rhetoric I hear from Hillary. I'd have a hard time voting for her as of right now.
Marquette Basketball on Reddit: http://reddit.com/r/mubb

rugbydrummer

  • Registered User
  • Team Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 457
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2007, 04:20:55 PM »
she accepted $800,000 from a hip-hop star (Timbaland) who hosted a fundraiser at his home in Miami. Two weeks later she calls Imus a bigot. If you want to look at Timbaland's lyrics, look them up on any search engine. He makes Imus sound like Mother Teresa. Hillary is the ultimate sleazebag hypocrite.


Yes well, excuse Timbaland for not being an old white radiocaster.  I mean, he IS a rapper, sheesh--I think you're comparing apples and oranges here.

augoman

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1109
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2007, 05:13:57 PM »
don't know if the rapper/Imus comparison is apt, but do agree that Hillary is a self-seeking opportunist who will do anything for personal gain.
sure wish there could be at least one moderate candidate I could feel good about.  God save us from the phonies.  (Is Edwards still talking about lowering health care costs?)

Murffieus

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 899
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2007, 08:58:38 PM »
Ziarik----(you say you wouldn't vote for Hilliary "as of right now")----do you mean if Hilliary changed her stripes and told you what you wanted to hear----you'd vote for her?

nathanziarek

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 612
    • Late to the Party
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2007, 10:01:16 PM »
I don't even pay much attention to things right now. Nothing they say has any bearing. You are only trying to differentiate yourself from a bunch of like-minded individuals. Now is when you say the things people want to hear. It just doesn't mean anything.

Once the primaries are over, the person has locked up the "core." I don't really expect them to change their tune at this point as much as I expect them to begin to delve into specific agenda items that are important to them. Unless Bush solves it in the next year+, Iraq will obvisouly be the major talking point. But, we're in a lot of trouble in a lot of things in this country and I want to hear someone talk about and take those things on. Education – Healthcare – Environment — the list could go on forever.

So, yes. If Clinton wins the primary, and she has good ideas about serious problems, she'll win me over. I know in some circles that's called a "flip-flop," but I'll admit it if I am wrong about her right now.
Marquette Basketball on Reddit: http://reddit.com/r/mubb

Murffieus

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 899
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2007, 08:22:06 AM »
If you are even only remotely predisposed, Hilliary is going to tell you what you want to hear at any point in the campaign. The Clinton philosophy is take polls, find out where the center is relative to your opponent, and then speak to it.

mviale

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2321
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2007, 09:45:57 AM »
ecompt - what if the media called your daughter a HO?  Do you have a daughter?

You heard it here first. Davante Gardner will be a Beast this year.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=27259

Murffieus

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 899
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2007, 03:43:41 PM »
Mivale----My reaction would be to consider the source (he has to mentally deranged)-----just because Imus calls someone a name doesn't mean it's so-----I wouldn't take him seriously no matter what he said. I never could watch Imus for more than a few minutes and that only happened if he popped up when I turned the TV on-----could never understand what everyone saw in the guy!



« Last Edit: April 15, 2007, 03:45:49 PM by Murffieus »

jutaw22mu

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 655
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2007, 03:48:17 PM »
dont worry im not planning on voting for hillary or any democrat and most republicans for that matter.


its either brownback or fred thompson for me, or else im writing my name in for my vote.

nathanziarek

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 612
    • Late to the Party
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2007, 07:47:38 PM »
If you are even only remotely predisposed, Hilliary is going to tell you what you want to hear at any point in the campaign. The Clinton philosophy is take polls, find out where the center is relative to your opponent, and then speak to it.

You are letting your bias affect your reading comprehension. That isn't what I said. All politicians tell you what you want to hear. Hillary is not different. Where we disagree is that you believe the Clintons will change their opinion based only on the polls. I believe they will change what they talk about based on the polls. And if they talk about things I care about, in ways I agree with, I'll vote for her.

Politicians as a whole walk a line where they can tell as many people what they want to hear while alienating the fewset possible numbers. You can replace the words "Clinton" and "Hillary" in the above sentence with "Romney" and "Mitt" and it still rings true.

nate
Marquette Basketball on Reddit: http://reddit.com/r/mubb

Murffieus

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 899
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2007, 07:55:12 PM »
Reagan didn't talk to the polls----GWB certainly doesn't talk to the polls----the Clintons talk the polls more than anyone in recent memory! Bill was a master at that----how else would a little known Southern Governor from Arkansas who hadn't achieved anything of note as Gov. have been his party's nominee and then been elected president!

He told people what they wanted to hear-----and Hilliary is following the same gameplan!

nathanziarek

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 612
    • Late to the Party
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2007, 09:01:21 PM »
I don't know what "talk to the polls" means.

Does it mean "I believe X, but America believes Y, so I believe Y" or does it mean "America cares about X, so I'll talk about X." If it is the former, I need proof. I want a specific example of Clinton saying something, a poll released showing America wants different, and him/her changing their tune. If it is the latter ... duh!

Listen, If I were to run for an office, it would be because I have some agenda to further (even if that agenda is just "better plowing after snowstorms"). That doesn't mean that is the only issue I care about. If I ran a poll and found out people were also really worried about some other issue -- cruising on some local street -- and I agreed, I'd be an idiot not to add that to my campaign base.

Don't let your obvious leanings stop you from seeing that all politicians read the polls.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2007, 09:06:25 PM by nathanziarek »
Marquette Basketball on Reddit: http://reddit.com/r/mubb

muarmy81

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1003
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2007, 06:49:51 AM »

[/quote]


Yes well, excuse Timbaland for not being an old white radiocaster.  I mean, he IS a rapper, sheesh--I think you're comparing apples and oranges here.
[/quote]

So rappers have the right/authority to use profanity, demeaning/racial language, and exploit women?

I know we talked about this earlier but I don't understand this argument.  Yes Imus said something extremely ignorant but how can black culture burn someboy at the stake yet turn a blind eye towards their own people who routinely use the N-word, B*tch, Ho, and parade women around their videos like pieces of meat?  I know I'll probably start a hail-storm with this but in my opinion you could argue that the people holding that culture back the most is black people.  It's "cool" to be stupid (if you're educated you're too white), its glamorous to be a "gangsta", its acceptable to treat woman like objects, etc.

Reminds me of the south park episode where Mr. Garrison got offended by people using the F*G word but he could use since he was gay...I mean come on, how can anyone justify using offensive language?

OneMadWarrior

  • Team Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 303
  • Wish I was at the Maui Invitational
    • The Truth
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2007, 07:31:48 AM »
Sad is the state of current national politics. What has happened to the progressive leaders who spoke their mind and sought change in government. Now we have the same BS spewed by both parties every year and nothing really changes for the better. There is no party or politicians anymore for the people at the center. Democrats are becoming way to conservative in the realm of personal freedoms and the Republicans are becoming too liberal with financial issues. Where is the viable party for the fiscal conservative who is socially liberal? Just goes to show that the Bible-belters are getting their hands into all parts of government.
“When I was losing, they called me nuts. When I was winning they called me eccentric.”

~Al McGuire

Correct morals arise from knowing what man is—not what do-gooders and well-meaning old Aunt Nellies would like him to be.
~Robert Heinlein

Murffieus

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 899
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2007, 07:43:11 AM »
First of all we're fighting wars on two fronts----costs money-----secondly GWB set up Medicare D to help seniors with drug payments (compassion)----costs money!

Finall, though the deficit is high in nominal terms-----as a percentage of GNP it's relatively smaller and it shrinks even futher with each report the last few years!

augoman

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1109
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2007, 08:53:41 AM »
does anyone think Fred Thompson will be a viable candidate inspite of his illness?  I hope.

ecompt

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 3339
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2007, 10:34:17 AM »
mviale--yes, I have two daughters, and I would be upset if anyone called either of them a ho. Imus deserved to be suspended, but not fired. What bothers me is the double standard that rappers can talk about violence and use the n-word and the s-word and the b-word and "ho," and some people rationalize it by saying it's artistic freedom or, as one ESPN host  says, "terms of affection." Why should these hip-hop morons (and anyone who has the use the n-word 15 to 20 times in a song lyric is a moron) be allowed to say whatever they want? Imus was wrong. Jesse Jackson was wrong to call New York "Hymietown". Nothing happened to him. Al Sharpton has spent his entire life trying to incite race riots (google "Tawana Brawley") and we're supposed to listen to him? Please. And for Hillary to ever preach morals to anyone is a farce.

mviale

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2321
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2007, 09:21:43 PM »
Glad he's done.  suspended - please!!
You heard it here first. Davante Gardner will be a Beast this year.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=27259

OneMadWarrior

  • Team Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 303
  • Wish I was at the Maui Invitational
    • The Truth
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2007, 09:03:40 AM »
Wow, this turned into an imus argument. Basically, Hilary is a politician in every sense of the word. She will say whatever it takes to be elected. I will never vote for her. Every election is picking the lesser of two evils.
“When I was losing, they called me nuts. When I was winning they called me eccentric.”

~Al McGuire

Correct morals arise from knowing what man is—not what do-gooders and well-meaning old Aunt Nellies would like him to be.
~Robert Heinlein

jutaw22mu

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 655
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2007, 10:26:35 AM »
its true hillary does suck.  however between her and obama, she is the lesser of two evils.

regarding imus, he should be fired.  good riddance, maybe he will think again before he disrespects women athletes in the future.

77ncaachamps

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 8457
  • Last of the Warrior Class
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2007, 01:54:32 AM »
don't know if the rapper/Imus comparison is apt, but do agree that Hillary is a self-seeking opportunist who will do anything for personal gain.
sure wish there could be at least one moderate candidate I could feel good about.  God save us from the phonies.  (Is Edwards still talking about lowering health care costs?)

I'd like to take that above statement and alter it as it would apply to ANY politician:

"...do agree that ________(insert your favorite politician)________ is a self-seeking opportunist who will do anything for personal gain."
SS Marquette

Mayor McCheese

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1390
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2007, 12:39:20 AM »
If you are even only remotely predisposed, Hilliary is going to tell you what you want to hear at any point in the campaign. The Clinton philosophy is take polls, find out where the center is relative to your opponent, and then speak to it.

Isn't that every politicians way of getting votes????  You bash Democrats like Republicans are saints... come on man, open your eyes and stop hugging Fox News


not saying I am a Hillary fan, because I am not, but I can't stand the mudslinging that every party does... both parties do the same thing, just say what the other person does wrong.... obviously the 2006 elections showed that the American Public wanted change... and I loved every minute of it
« Last Edit: April 26, 2007, 12:43:55 AM by Mayor McCheese »
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/NCAA/dayone&sportCat=ncb

pure genius stuff by Bill Simmons, remember to read day 2

Murffieus

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 899
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2007, 08:48:22 AM »
The American people are being duped by the nightly anti war barrage by the liberal national news media who want us the wave the white flag of defeat and go back to the defensive mentality of the pre 9/11 era.

They are like the British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlin who trusted Hitler in 1937 and signed the Munich peace agreement with him-----then came back to Britain waving the agreement as he proclaimed "peace in our time"!

Like Hitler----the Jihadists are out to get anyone who stands in the way of their anilelating the Jews-----by confrontinting them now----the fewer the number of lives will be lost in the long run!

Mayor McCheese

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1390
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2007, 07:10:25 PM »
The American people are being duped by the nightly anti war barrage by the liberal national news media who want us the wave the white flag of defeat and go back to the defensive mentality of the pre 9/11 era.

They are like the British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlin who trusted Hitler in 1937 and signed the Munich peace agreement with him-----then came back to Britain waving the agreement as he proclaimed "peace in our time"!

Like Hitler----the Jihadists are out to get anyone who stands in the way of their anilelating the Jews-----by confrontinting them now----the fewer the number of lives will be lost in the long run!

thats fine that there is anti-war barrage on the liberal national news media Murff, you just watch Fox News, Bill O'Reilly and Hannity, eat them up!

Hitler and Iraq are completely different matters.... how bout we look at Vietnam, another country that we tried to change their ways of government (sound like something we are trying to do?), but the people in Vietnam wanted otherwise and for 4 years we sat in there killing our American Troops.... hmmmm, sounds a little familiar, but thats ok, here comes Murff to save the Conservative viewpoint by saying that we HAD to go into Iraq RIGHT THEN, that Saddam had Weapons of Mass Destruction (still haven't found any, and that was the MAIN reason Bush and Powell gave the UN for going into Iraq), and that they were our immediate threat!
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/NCAA/dayone&sportCat=ncb

pure genius stuff by Bill Simmons, remember to read day 2

Murffieus

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 899
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2007, 01:52:14 PM »
Hitler and Iraq might be different per se-----but the threat that Hitler posed in the 1930s which was met by apathy is very similar to the threat posed by Radical Islam in the new millenium that also is being met with apathy (McCheese is a good example of that) !

BTW----as I mentioned-----after the fall of Saddam----our arms inspector (Dulfer) in his report stated that Saddam maintained the capability to manufacture WMD at a momennts notice and indeed had plans to do just that after the UN "sanctions" were lifted "if not before"!

In other words the "intent" was still there regardless of the state of inventory at the time of invasion.!

tower912

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 23738
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2007, 05:08:54 PM »
  If you look at a young man on the street corner and decide he has the means and the intent at some time in the future to mug you, do you get to either pre-emptively shoot or incarcerate him?    Saddam was the thug ruler of a crumbling regime unable to project even regionally.   He probably still had madman fantasies for the future, maybe even as far as making friends with the US again so it would give him WMD's to use against those pesky Iranians, like Reagan/Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld did in the 80's.    Any good chemist with access to the internet can be viewed as a threat to be a future terrorist.   Look at McVeigh, that God-fearing right wing Christian.   He used simple, easily purchased chemicals in the right proportions.   
Bush tried to get Clarke to find a way to tie 9/11 to Saddam on 9/12, even though the intelligence community knew it was bin Laden.   Many of the neocons that held his ear wanted a war with Iraq and used this as a convenient excuse.   9/11 gave them the pretense to launch an illegal, pre-emptive war.   The fact that everything has gone so poorly since then is either karma or the proof of a vengeful God who does not like pre-emptive wars.
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

Murffieus

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 899
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2007, 08:40:52 PM »
Well Tower----do you think shooting at our planes, and trying to assasinate George Bush SR-----ripping off billions from us through the oil for food program------and paying hefty stipends to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers to kill Israeli's (the core problem)-----or retaining both the will and capability to build WMD once the UN sanctions are lifted (arms inspector Dilfer)-----and God only knows what else he was up to------that all this was reason to go to war?

Give GWB the benefit of the doubt----he's not in the business of doing this country in-------he's doing based on his info what he has to do to protect this country (long term) and also he has a legacy to protect!

tower912

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 23738
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2007, 06:34:52 AM »
His legacy is going to be one of the worst presidents ever.   That is already written.   
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

Murffieus

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 899
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2007, 08:32:37 AM »
No way----you ignore the booming economy after inheriting an economis mess (a recession) from Clinton. You also take too short a viewpoint here-----history will look at GWB a lot differently than the contemporary media does------radical islam isn't going away----in fact the movement will accelerate if lose in Iraq or Afghanistan.

History will recognize GWB as being the first President to recognize what we are up against and doing something about it------prior to GWB, radical islam was treated as a "law enforcement" problem-------GWB pegged it for what it is (a military problem)----just like Churchill and Truman identified correctly the problems of their day and took the heat for it at the time----but whom have gone down in history as "great leaders!

tower912

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 23738
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #31 on: April 28, 2007, 09:28:35 AM »
History will judge GWB for his attack on civil liberties, the secrecy of his administration, lying his way into war.    The booming economy is an afterproduct of the fiscal sanity of the Clinton years, certainly not the road to bankruptcy he has put the nation on.   Eventually, the bills will have to be paid for this war and for the tax cuts in the face of all reason.    My 4 month old son and 12 year old daughter both owe over $30K to the federal debt because people who support this president's fiscal policies don't believe in paying their bills.   Once upon a time, R's stood for fiscal responsibility.   They will not be able to claim that with a straight face for a generation.
 A war on radical Islam?   By making it a war, or a crusade, if you like, you play into their martyr complex.   If we had simply taken down bin Laden like the criminal he is and tried him in a legitimate court, we would have been able to send a message to all of the moderate muslims that we don't hate them and that we simply punish criminals.   By making it a war in radical islam, we will rally impressionable young men without any other future to the cause and we will be fighting this war long after you and I are gone.    He have created the hydra that bin Laden wanted us to by invading a middle east country that had not attacked us.   To many in the world, we proved bin Laden right and made him a hero.    Well done.
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

Murffieus

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 899
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2007, 01:08:13 PM »
You jump to a lot of conclusions so let me ask you ------- was Tony Blair complicit in "lying about the war" or was he dumb enough to be "duped"-?---was John Kerry who voted for the war dumb enough to be duped by supposed  GWB "lies"?----was Hilliary Clinton dumb enoght to be duped by supposed GWB "lies"?----was Bill Clinton duped too?----he supported the war and had said repeatedly that Saddam was a threat to national security?-----didn't these people do their due dilligence? Weren't they shown the same intelligence that GWB had access too?

If GWB lied and got away with it----there are an awful lot of dumb people running around Washington D.C. and running the British government!

BTW-----I gave you 6 or 7 reasons other than WMD why Iraq should have been attacked----and all the people listed above supported that decision lock, stock, and barrell!

nathanziarek

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 612
    • Late to the Party
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #33 on: April 28, 2007, 09:40:20 PM »
Murf --

No on is jumping to conclusions but you.

Congress never voted for the war. Never. Not once. They voted to authorize the use of force as a means of political pressure. This was to be used after every available resource was spent attempting to negotiate. We did not negotiate. We attacked.

You continue to mention the intelligence data that everyone and their uncle has seen. I assume you've been reading up on the Tenet situation, where he calls the use of the "slam-dunk" term misguided and misused by this administration. Then there was the report declassified last year that said the Senate Intelligence committee repeatedly questioned the ties between Saddam and al-Qaeda even while the administration was spinning the tale publically to garner support for the war.

The entire Congress does not get a copy of all security reports; typically only the committees get the entire thing. Is it that implausible to think that a congressperson would hear all of the distortions -- Tenet says its a slam dunk, al-Qaeda and Saddam are cohorts -- and then vote for, as the bill states, a threat of force?

Now, the question as to should have Iraq ben invaded. Some day, yes. But not in leiu of fighting the real war (the one that can't be fought with guns). Saddam repeatedly tried to capture Zarqawi. I am not and will not defend him (he deserved a fate worse than death), but in this instance, the devil you know was better than the devil you don't. There will never be a end to the war on terror (put it right next to the war on drugs), but had we actually maintained course and thouroughly disrupted the terrorist networks, we would have been able to use some of our 2 trillion dollar war time spending on building good will. There is no détente here. We're locked in an endless war now.
Marquette Basketball on Reddit: http://reddit.com/r/mubb

tower912

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 23738
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #34 on: April 29, 2007, 07:47:07 AM »
Tony Blair thought that removing Saddam was a worthy enough goal in itself.   The Downing Street memo's showed that British intelligence thought that the US was fixing intelligence around policy.   The British intelligence was more openly skeptical.   Blair chose to hitch his trailer to Bush.   He has paid the price ever since.   
Republicans using Democrats as proof their folly was ok always cracks me up.   I would say that many did fail at due diligence.   Also, some of them made purely political calculations in their vote to authorize the use of force. Some may have believed Cheney when he said he had additional proof.  And to paraphrase Kerry from his Rolling Stone interview, none of them thought GWB would f it up as bad as he did. 
But here we are.     
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

Murffieus

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 899
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #35 on: April 29, 2007, 08:52:17 PM »
Well there is a minority position on everything (Downing Street Memos)----the majority position as presented was as Tenet said a "slam dunk"----it was a major Intelligence failing----80% of the Congress bought into it.

And as I say----you completely ignore the fact that according to our post invasion arms inspector (Dulfer) who concluded in his report that there was overwhelming evidence (documents) that Saddan retained the ability to make WMD on a moments notice and indeed fully intended to do so once the UN snactions were lifted. That in addition to all the other things like paying the families of Palestinian Suicide bombers hefty stipends (rewards)----trying to assasinate Bush Sr in Kuwait in 1993, shooting at our planes, etc. etc, etc,!

nathanziarek

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 612
    • Late to the Party
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #36 on: April 29, 2007, 09:04:29 PM »
You have read up on the Tenet "slam-dunk" statement, right? This wasn't a majority opinion. In fact, it wasn't even Tenet's opinion. It was the opinion of the administration who masterfully played the (liberal? where do we get that?) media.

For the last time, 80% of Congress bought into a misperception. How in Gods name does that make it right?
Marquette Basketball on Reddit: http://reddit.com/r/mubb

Murffieus

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 899
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #37 on: April 30, 2007, 10:56:23 AM »
It was the correct decision based on the information at the time----that information was very compelling so it got 80% of the congress to buy in. Congress usually doesn't get anywhere near that sizeable a majority.

Now with hindsight you say that it wasn't the correct decision-----well maybe with hindsight one can say it wasn't----that is if existing MD was the only criteria-----but i have laid out other reasons as well!

nathanziarek

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 612
    • Late to the Party
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #38 on: April 30, 2007, 12:35:44 PM »
You still misrepresent what happened then. There was considerable dissent among experts and lay-politicos as this administration attempted to tie 9/11 to Iraq and Saddam. This is not just hindsight talking. The Downing St. Memo and the newly released information about the misuse of Tenet's "Slam dunk" go a long way to prove that even the administration didn't belive it to be the "correct decision." It was the decision that they wanted to make, and who could really blame them? I don't mourn Saddam's death...who would?

In the end, though, there is a right time for everything, and this was not the right time to get locked into a war that even Bush senior thought was a bad idea.

There was a great poll that asked American's if Saddam was responsible for 9/11. It broke straight across "party" lines. If you were a liberal, watching all that liberally-biased news, you got it right more often than not. You almost always got it wrong if you watched Fox News.

History will show if it ultimately was the right decision. If so, it was by blind luck, though. The evidence -- in hindsight or at the time the decision was made -- simply isn't there.
Marquette Basketball on Reddit: http://reddit.com/r/mubb

Murffieus

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 899
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #39 on: April 30, 2007, 03:01:25 PM »
I wouldn't call a 20% minority "considerable dissent".

However it was MY opinion at the time that GWB was using WMD as an EXCUSE to invade Iraq eventhough the WMD issue was a sincere one on his part. IMO WMD by itself is not enough reason to invade another country----there has to be reasons that indicate that the country involved is likely to USE these WMD or sell them to 3rd parties for use  (in this case an arm of Radical Islam).

The more important reasons were to open a 2nd front against radical Islam----- to eliminate a guy who was supporting terrorism against Isreal by paying hefty stipends to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers (in very public ceromonies I might add)----not to let a guy get away with attempting to assasinate a former US president (Bush SR. in Kuwait in 1993)----to stop this guy (Saddam) from ripping off the UN Oil for Food program to the tune of billions-----and also to retaliate for constantly shooting at our planes----and there are probably other reasons that are classified, which is another reason you have to give GWB the benefit of any doubt-----he has access to classified info you and I just don't have access to!
« Last Edit: April 30, 2007, 03:29:29 PM by Murffieus »

ChicosBailBonds

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22695
  • #AllInnocentLivesMatter
    • Cracked Sidewalks
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #40 on: April 30, 2007, 04:53:36 PM »

SoCalwarrior

  • Global Moderator
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1429
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #41 on: April 30, 2007, 05:39:26 PM »
The dems have requested equal time photoshopping...

nathanziarek

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 612
    • Late to the Party
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #42 on: April 30, 2007, 07:09:21 PM »
OK, the Bush Kitten eater made me laugh out loud.  ;D
Marquette Basketball on Reddit: http://reddit.com/r/mubb

nathanziarek

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 612
    • Late to the Party
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #43 on: April 30, 2007, 07:21:18 PM »
I wouldn't call a 20% minority "considerable dissent".
Where is the 20% from. The vote in Congress, based on a time of unprecedented goodwill toward the president, to authorize the use of force in Iraq (after all other avenues had been exhausted) based on limited, biased information from the administration? Ok. Just checking.

and there are probably other reasons that are classified, which is another reason you have to give GWB the benefit of any doubt-----he has access to classified info you and I just don't have access to!
If you think your arguement is solid as is, don't make up other "classified reasons" that no one knows. It weakens your stance.
W has squandered the goodwill of "benefit of the doubt," so he won't be getting that from me. But, maybe he does have information that is not public. If I were him, I'd keep it that way. Everytime something becomes declassified it seems to validate his opposition.

Once again, been a pleasure Murf! I'm signing off before my blood pressure ... does what ever blood pressure shouldn't (what do I know about it?)
Marquette Basketball on Reddit: http://reddit.com/r/mubb

Murffieus

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 899
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #44 on: April 30, 2007, 07:32:23 PM »
Nathan your painting over the situation with a brush that isn't factual. The congress voted 80-20 to authorize GWB to use force to remove Saddam-----for his part GWB gave Saddam umteen chances to let the weapons inspectors back in------Saddam refused time and time again-----GWB then used his overwhelming congressional mandate to invade.

I have not heard the argument that he exceeded his mandate anywhere------I would recheck your facts----if he had exceeded his mandate all hell would have broken loose over that-----and I haven't heard a word about THAT!

I'm not making up other reasons----but I do think it's safe to say that we don't know everything that GWB knows about the Saddam situation!

Well it's been nice talking with you!

ChicosBailBonds

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22695
  • #AllInnocentLivesMatter
    • Cracked Sidewalks
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #45 on: May 01, 2007, 12:29:45 PM »
I loved the Bush Kitten eater....that is exactly the kind of thing that would set liberals into a crying snit.

Love it.  Yummy kitty...yummy!!

ZiggysFryBoy

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 5115
  • MEDITERRANEAN TACOS!
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #46 on: May 02, 2007, 10:03:59 AM »
The dems have requested equal time photoshopping...
[img]

socal, I didn't know you went to those kinds of sites to get the bare chested fireman for the Rummy photo.   :o   ;D

ChicosBailBonds

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22695
  • #AllInnocentLivesMatter
    • Cracked Sidewalks
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #47 on: May 02, 2007, 12:15:35 PM »
I'm guessing if a conservative put a photo up like that of a liberal guy getting it in the shorts.....well there wouldn't be a chuckle, let's put it that way.  Moral outrage...blah blah blah

 ;)

ChicosBailBonds

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22695
  • #AllInnocentLivesMatter
    • Cracked Sidewalks
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #48 on: May 02, 2007, 12:16:22 PM »
His legacy is going to be one of the worst presidents ever.   That is already written.   

LOL


Say it together....JIMMAH CARTER   JIMMAH CARTER  JIMMAH CARTER



tower912

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 23738
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #49 on: May 02, 2007, 12:25:59 PM »
Jimmah Carter... George Bush can't hold Jimmy's jock.    The long term damage that GWB is doing to this country won't be undone for generations.   Jimmy was just a poor leader.   And don't think for a second I am defending his record as president.   Other than the Camp David accords (which didn't last), he did not have much to be proud of during his presidency.   But he wasn't a megalomaniac, merely not as competent as we needed at the time.
I don't think Hillary makes it out of the primaries.    She has the money and the name, but only a small number of people who are true devotees.     One of the drawbacks to having this many candidates working this hard this early on both parties is that a fair amount of partisans on both sides are going to sit on the sidelines for awhile and let them sort themselves out rather than committing whole-heartedly early.    Again, I have a feeling McCain gets the nomination from the R's by default.    I don't have a clear feeling yet for the D's, but I don't think it will be Hil.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2007, 12:55:00 PM by tower912 »
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

ChicosBailBonds

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22695
  • #AllInnocentLivesMatter
    • Cracked Sidewalks
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #50 on: May 02, 2007, 01:31:15 PM »
Murf --

No on is jumping to conclusions but you.

Congress never voted for the war. Never. Not once. They voted to authorize the use of force as a means of political pressure. This was to be used after every available resource was spent attempting to negotiate. We did not negotiate. We attacked.

You continue to mention the intelligence data that everyone and their uncle has seen. I assume you've been reading up on the Tenet situation, where he calls the use of the "slam-dunk" term misguided and misused by this administration. Then there was the report declassified last year that said the Senate Intelligence committee repeatedly questioned the ties between Saddam and al-Qaeda even while the administration was spinning the tale publically to garner support for the war.

The entire Congress does not get a copy of all security reports; typically only the committees get the entire thing. Is it that implausible to think that a congressperson would hear all of the distortions -- Tenet says its a slam dunk, al-Qaeda and Saddam are cohorts -- and then vote for, as the bill states, a threat of force?

Now, the question as to should have Iraq ben invaded. Some day, yes. But not in leiu of fighting the real war (the one that can't be fought with guns). Saddam repeatedly tried to capture Zarqawi. I am not and will not defend him (he deserved a fate worse than death), but in this instance, the devil you know was better than the devil you don't. There will never be a end to the war on terror (put it right next to the war on drugs), but had we actually maintained course and thouroughly disrupted the terrorist networks, we would have been able to use some of our 2 trillion dollar war time spending on building good will. There is no détente here. We're locked in an endless war now.

Nathan, you're being a bit disingenious on the Tenet stuff.  Read his comments from yesterday and watch the interview tonight.  Hell, even uber liberal Arriana Huffington isn't buying his stuff.

As Tenet said on Monday, the CIA believed Saddam had WMD.  So did every other major agency in the world.  He totally kills the "Bush lied" ultra crap from the left.

Excerpt


But, later they revisit the "Bush lied" scenario with Tenet.

...Tenet refutes accusations that he knew the data was false.

"That's just repugnant to me, I would never let the secretary of state … someone who I was very close to, who represented the United States of America, in front of the eyes of the world, go out there and make a false statement. Never," Tenet said.

..."It's really serious for someone to say the director and the deputy director, essentially, cooked the books to go make the case for war and didn't tell the secretary of state. There's no way on this God's green Earth that that would ever happen, none."


Well, there you have it. The Bush administration did not "lie" about Saddam's WMDs. They acted on intelligence that may have been faulty, yes, but they did not act on "lies".

As Tenet says, "We wrote what we believed, we stayed true to it."

But, as ABC gives Tenet the room to tell his story, the focus is on Tenet and not on the Administration like it was during the many "Bush lied" stories. And that is because they wish to present Tenet as the "honest" guy who was ignored by the President.... even though he wasn't.

So, on one hand "Bush lied" about WMDs, yet on the other Tenet acted on the best known info available at the time.

Well, it seems to make perfect sense that if Tenet was acting on information that they were all sure was quite correct at the time, then Bush did not "lie" when using that very same information.

Right?

Tell it to ABC.

           

 
 



http://newsbusters.org/node/12434




Murffieus

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 899
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #51 on: May 02, 2007, 08:25:45 PM »
Not only that ----but Hilliary, Kerry, Rockefeller ( minoity leader on the senate intelligence committe) along with Biden and others----- were trying to beat each other to the mike to denounce Saddam as a "direct threat to the USA with his WMD and was in the process of attempting to build nuclear weapons"-----I saw each of them on TV tonight expousing this in 2003 !

What hypocrytes!

ChicosBailBonds

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22695
  • #AllInnocentLivesMatter
    • Cracked Sidewalks
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #52 on: May 14, 2007, 06:19:47 PM »

augoman

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1109
Re: Just in case anyone was thinking of voting for Hillary...
« Reply #53 on: May 15, 2007, 02:22:31 PM »
actually, Tower, we're still trying to undo the effects of Jimmy Carter..., one of the worst presidents ever.  his arrogance even upset bill clinton when carter was sent to negotiate w/ north korea.  we paid more for a gallon of gas (adjusted for inflation) during his 4 years than we do now.  Reagan spent 8 years repairing our world image after the iranian punch in the nose (hostages) with no response. 

 

feedback