why can't vander finish?!

[Mike Deane's Seat Belt]

Is it just me or is Vander absolutely terrible at blowing a great move to the hoop with a biffed layup!?!?!? He makes great moves to the hole only to be denied by a wide open rim!?!?  whats up with this guy, he is turning out to be nothing by hype with no ability to finish!!!!!!!

[mufansince72]

It would probably help if he looked at the basket once in a while

[nyg]

One point and two turnovers.

Junior has zero points and three turnovers.

Gardner has two points

Thats three of out starters.

[79Warrior]

One point and two turnovers.

Junior has zero points and three turnovers.

Gardner has two points

Thats three of out starters.

beyond bad.

[DCWarriors04]

This team looks LOST

[nyg]

One point and two turnovers.

Junior has zero points and three turnovers.

Gardner has two points

Thats three of out starters.

Oh, and the other starters two are seniors.  

[Les Nessman]

It's one thing to be a great defender, but every point he does give up is a point someone else on the team is going to have to make up for since Vander can't score.

[MUCam]

Is it just me or is Vander absolutely terrible at blowing a great move to the hoop with a biffed layup!?!?!? He makes great moves to the hole only to be denied by a wide open rim!?!?  whats up with this guy, he is turning out to be nothing by hype with no ability to finish!!!!!!!

Your life must be awful.

[Hards Alumni]

I have it on good authority that he can finish.

[VanderBabyBlue]

Remember around this time last year when he announced he'd forgo the draft and return for his sophomore year? Ha.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

Vander can't play against quality competition yet.

[77ncaachamps]

Apparently he can't finish but he can turn the ball over in addition to his lack of having an outside shot. smh

[MerrittsMustache]

Much like Jerel McNeal as an underclassman, Vander isn't in control when he jumps. He also jumps out instead of up. It's nearly impossible to put any kind of touch on a shot when a player is flying full speed past the hoop. He needs to get himself under control when he leaves the ground and leap as straight up as possible. It's a very correctable issue but odds are, he's been doing it his entire life so it's a tough habit to break.

[Da 'Lanche]

I have been a pretty staunch supporter of vander the last two years asking for patience as he is still young and has so much upside because of his athleticism.   He also, usually, does the unnoticed things well like defense, rebounding and not turning the ball over.  I thought he really showed progress at the Kohl hole this year and then the last few games he has really had miserable overall performances.   He is back to a lack of confidence in his offense and that carries over to his teammates who just do not look for him to contribute from the outside.  I know he was highly recruited.....but, the dude was ranked really high coming out of high school (which is weak in Wisconsin) and the AAU circuit where he thrived.   Take his name out of the equation....a top 25 (or so) recruit hitting his sophomore stride should be doing a LOT more for a team as a starter than being a liability on offense.  I still have hope, but, c'mon man....start showing something out there!  Even if it mimmicked his progress earlier in the year, I would take it.

[wojosdojo]

Feel the exact same.

[godzilla]

Much like Jerel McNeal as an underclassman, Vander isn't in control when he jumps. He also jumps out instead of up. It's nearly impossible to put any kind of touch on a shot when a player is flying full speed past the hoop. He needs to get himself under control when he leaves the ground and leap as straight up as possible. It's a very correctable issue but odds are, he's been doing it his entire life so it's a tough habit to break.

How does that poor form not get corrected during the summer?

[CTWarrior]

Much like Jerel McNeal as an underclassman, Vander isn't in control when he jumps. He also jumps out instead of up. It's nearly impossible to put any kind of touch on a shot when a player is flying full speed past the hoop. He needs to get himself under control when he leaves the ground and leap as straight up as possible. It's a very correctable issue but odds are, he's been doing it his entire life so it's a tough habit to break.

I'm not sure how McNeal got so much worse after he graduated.  As a soph, McNeal was probably the best player on a top 30ish team in the country.  Vander Blue is nowhere near where McNeal the sophomore was.

[MerrittsMustache]

I'm not sure how McNeal got so much worse after he graduated.  As a soph, McNeal was probably the best player on a top 30ish team in the country.  Vander Blue is nowhere near where McNeal the sophomore was.

I wasn't comparing their overall games. I was simply saying that McNeal had the same issues with being out of control when jumping and attempting to finish at the rim.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

I wasn't comparing their overall games. I was simply saying that McNeal had the same issues with being out of control when jumping and attempting to finish at the rim.

Jerel drove us all crazy with his decision making, but at the end of the day he was a scorer. A prolific scorer. Vander is not.

Let's also keep in mind that Jerel played with point guard with explosive quickness. You can hardly say that about Junior. We are undermanned at our ball handling positions. DJO is more like McNeal than Vander is. Vander is like Brandon Bell at this point.

[wadesworld]

Jerel drove us all crazy with his decision making, but at the end of the day he was a scorer. A prolific scorer. Vander is not.

Let's also keep in mind that Jerel played with point guard with explosive quickness. You can hardly say that about Junior. We are undermanned at our ball handling positions. DJO is more like McNeal than Vander is. Vander is like Brandon Bell at this point.

+1 on everything you said.

[DomJamesToTheBasket]

2-17 in his last 3 games.  I think a lot of people are expecting too much from him based on some good games against cupcakes.....exactly like last year.  I think Mayo needs to be seriously considered to start.  The only reason I would think about NOT starting Mayo is that he gives needed offensive punch off the bench with DG now starting,  but I have no doubt that Mayo is a more effective player.

[Hoopaloop]

I have it on good authority that he can finish.

Especially if you call him Vander Orange, he can finish strong.   

[MerrittsMustache]

Jerel drove us all crazy with his decision making, but at the end of the day he was a scorer. A prolific scorer. Vander is not.

Let's also keep in mind that Jerel played with point guard with explosive quickness. You can hardly say that about Junior. We are undermanned at our ball handling positions. DJO is more like McNeal than Vander is. Vander is like Brandon Bell at this point.

What in the hell are people reading? I said that Vander's out of control jumping is similar to McNeal's as an underclassman. That's it. Jumping. Not overall game. Not as a scorer. Not as a ballhandler. Not as anything else. Jumping.

[muhs03]

He just hasnt figured out that his athletic ability was what separated him from his high school competition...and wont seperate him from high D1 competition.

[WarriorHal]

Your life must be awful.

I was waiting for MUCam to come to Vander's defense. The OP must have an "awful life" because he points out what everyone with two eyes can see. Vander has no offensive game and often cannot make a contested layup against high-level competition. Against Wisconsin, I expressed frustration that Vander missed layup after layup, even though he contributed in other areas. But people who state the obvious are attacked for, as MUCam puts it, lacking a complete understanding of the game.

Vander does have good athletic skills, so he can play defense and rebounds well for a guard. I've been following MU basketball since 1970, so I have figured out that there's a lot more to the game than just scoring. But a five-star national recruit should have much more game than what he has shown so far.

[NivBerkowitz]

Nice to finally see some fans realize what I've been saying for a year and half.  Just because you're athletic doesn't mean you can play basketball.  Dodd, why haven't you banned all these fans comments like a 5 year old taking away his toy because he doesn't agree with you like you did earlier this year?  If Vander Bust scores more than Mayo in Big East play I'll treat you to an all you can drink of your choice at any bar of your choice.  TGIF's has Appletini's, right?  There's a difference in being a true fan and being a homer with blinders on.  Leave the basement once in awhile and actually watch the games with partial fans, you might learn something.  Sure I'll be banned again after this post because freedom of speech doesn't exist on this site so won't read the follow up comments but regardless of how much blue blows, Go MU!

[GGGG]

I have been a pretty staunch supporter of vander the last two years asking for patience as he is still young and has so much upside because of his athleticism.   He also, usually, does the unnoticed things well like defense, rebounding and not turning the ball over.  I thought he really showed progress at the Kohl hole this year and then the last few games he has really had miserable overall performances.   He is back to a lack of confidence in his offense and that carries over to his teammates who just do not look for him to contribute from the outside.  I know he was highly recruited.....but, the dude was ranked really high coming out of high school (which is weak in Wisconsin) and the AAU circuit where he thrived.   Take his name out of the equation....a top 25 (or so) recruit hitting his sophomore stride should be doing a LOT more for a team as a starter than being a liability on offense.  I still have hope, but, c'mon man....start showing something out there!  Even if it mimmicked his progress earlier in the year, I would take it.

+1.  He actually had a decent game against LSU, but UWM and Vandy were all around terrible.

[GGGG]

Nice to finally see some fans realize what I've been saying for a year and half.  Just because you're athletic doesn't mean you can play basketball.  Dodd, why haven't you banned all these fans comments like a 5 year old taking away his toy because he doesn't agree with you like you did earlier this year?  If Vander Bust scores more than Mayo in Big East play I'll treat you to an all you can drink of your choice at any bar of your choice.  TGIF's has Appletini's, right?  There's a difference in being a true fan and being a homer with blinders on.  Leave the basement once in awhile and actually watch the games with partial fans, you might learn something.  Sure I'll be banned again after this post because freedom of speech doesn't exist on this site so won't read the follow up comments but regardless of how much blue blows, Go MU!

What board do you think you are posting to?

[GGGG]

2-17 in his last 3 games.  I think a lot of people are expecting too much from him based on some good games against cupcakes.....exactly like last year.  I think Mayo needs to be seriously considered to start.  The only reason I would think about NOT starting Mayo is that he gives needed offensive punch off the bench with DG now starting,  but I have no doubt that Mayo is a more effective player.

Mayo played more minutes than Vander yesterday so Buzz might be agreeing with you.

[esotericmindguy]

Mayo played more minutes than Vander yesterday so Buzz might be agreeing with you.

Buzz must not know basketball if he's playing Mayo more then Blue....right Sultan? He's obviously focusing on one side of the court.

[godzilla]

It's pretty evident that Blue just can't cut it at the wing, so PG is the only place he may be effective.  I could see him doing a decent job penetrating and dishing off.

[GGGG]

Buzz must not know basketball if he's playing Mayo more then Blue....right Sultan? He's obviously focusing on one side of the court.

No...Mayo can defend.  Nice try though.

[Stretchdeltsig]

It seems that Vander has lost his confidence again.  He plays very tentative against good competition.  It's sad to watch him on a layup and not finish.  Vander was a negative factor last night.  We need him to be a positive contributing factor for MU to be successful this year. 

[esotericmindguy]

No...Mayo can defend.  Nice try though.

Comical.

[Nukem2]

When Vander goes to the hoop, he needs to lay the ball off the glass authoritatively.  He tends to lob the ball rather than getting it firmly and squarely off the glass.

[Goose]

He needs to focus on the basics. I love hos potential and still a believer, but too much fancy stuff and not enough getting the job done. I'll take a two handed bounce pass over a one handed pass 30 feet from the basket.

[GGGG]

Comical.

What are you talking about?  Your entire basis for evaluating Vander is his inefficiencies on the offensive end without addressing what else he does on the defensive end.  Mayo might has well get increased minutes.  He brings some offense to the table without a serious drop off on the other side (except rebounding) *IF* Vander isn't defending as well or turning the ball over...which he hasn't the last two games.

So like a Vander drive, your point started with such promise, but you finished weak.  Work on your game some more and maybe someday you will be able to finish strong.

[MerrittsMustache]

It seems that Vander has lost his confidence again.  He plays very tentative against good competition.  It's sad to watch him on a layup and not finish.  Vander was a negative factor last night.  We need him to be a positive contributing factor for MU to be successful this year. 

Others have said this as well but I just don't see it. Vander doesn't look tentative to me and he certainly wasn't against Wisconsin (who would be considered "good competition"). Most of Vander's points come in transition. However, in these last few games, MU hasn't had very many transition opportunities, therefore Vander hasn't scored many points. He still looks to drive in the half court offense, but against athletic teams, he has a much harder time because they can play off of him due to his lack of an outside shot and there's really no place for him to go on drives because MU doesn't have many shooters to spread the floor and defenses can simply clog the lane.

[esotericmindguy]

What are you talking about?  Your entire basis for evaluating Vander is his inefficiencies on the offensive end without addressing what else he does on the defensive end.  Mayo might has well get increased minutes.  He brings some offense to the table without a serious drop off on the other side (except rebounding) *IF* Vander isn't defending as well or turning the ball over...which he hasn't the last two games.

So like a Vander drive, your point started with such promise, but you finished weak.  Work on your game some more and maybe someday you will be able to finish strong.

Its ok to be wrong once in a while Sultan, my point was he wasn't injured and that he's just a "marginal player". I also stated that don't expect much from him in the conference because he's not there yet. You and Mac jumped down my throat claiming I didn't understand basketball and that he does so much on the court on that stats can't provide. Yet he's losing minutes to a freshman.

Apparently Buzz doesn't know basketball.

[GGGG]

Its ok to be wrong once in a while Sultan, my point was he wasn't injured and that he's just a "marginal player". I also stated that don't expect much from him in the conference because he's not there yet. You and Mac jumped down my throat claiming I didn't understand basketball and that he does so much on the court on that stats can't provide. Yet he's losing minutes to a freshman.

Apparently Buzz doesn't know basketball.

I am not wrong.  He has not been doing those things on the court the last two games.

[esotericmindguy]

I am not wrong.  He has not been doing those things on the court the last two games.

K.

[We R Final Four]

VB was the co-leader in turnovers last night, and several missed layups without a possibility of an offen. board essentially is a turnover.  His defensive can't continue to hide 1-7 from the floor, including 0-2 from 3 pt land.  This can't be the great jump you expected between his Frosh and Soph year, is it?

[ErickJD08]

Confidence.  How the heck can he be confident?  Every time he drives, its a miss, blocked layup into the third row, or a turnover.  What is there to be confident about?  But this last loss is not on Vander, it is on the team leaders.  If you are a leader on the court, you can't score 6 points in the first 10 minutes of the game on your home court.  Just as critical a leader is at crunch time, the leader is critical to make some plays during that drought in the beginning.

The team needs a third scorer.  People can try and look to JC but the problem is that he came in as a pass first PG and forcing him to be third scorer is not going to work.  Unfortunately, this team is looking at a freshmen to be that guy.  As much as guys like to twist stats, Blue was brought in to be a 5 star player.  A player that can be a top player on the team.  He is not so now we are looking for that third guy and right now, its Mayo.  Thank goodness we have that kid and he looks ready to contribute.  I just think it is asking alot from a freshmen to be the number 3 scorer.

I hate the BS on this board where you pipe in some criticism and people jump all over you.  Facts are facts.  Blue was recruited to be a certain type of player.  Butler and Buycks left this year.  Crowder and DJO leave this year.  Blue was recruited to be that next player in line.  He is so far from being that player.

[ErickJD08]

VB was the co-leader in turnovers last night, and several missed layups without a possibility of an offen. board essentially is a turnover.  His defensive can't continue to hide 1-7 from the floor, including 0-2 from 3 pt land.  This can't be the great jump you expected between his Frosh and Soph year, is it?

Can we compare sophomore stats between Blue, Wade, and McNeal again?  That would be fun.

[RJax55]

Unfortunately, Vander is a product of very poor youth coaching, and it is now coming back to bite him big time.

The reason why he struggles so much against quality (high-major) competition is that he can't drive the basketball. And he can't drive it because he plays too upright. That's why he gets cut off going baseline so much. His defender beats him to the spot.

It takes more than just quickness to drive the basketball. You need proper body technique. Guys that are good at penetrating get lower to the floor and have their bodies learning towards the basket. They can get on the defenders hip and then turn/position themselves by them. Similar to an outside pass rusher in football.

Vander is unable to make that turn because he is so high. Instead he relies on his natural quickness and using his off arm to shield the defender. This works against lower competition, but not against athletic guys who can move their feet. Unless his technique changes, he will struggle driving past guys, especially on the wing.

[Les Nessman]

Are you really Robert Jackson?

[Doctor J]

Why is Vander getting so many minutes when playing so poorly?  Was he promised minutes?

[GGGG]

Why is Vander getting so many minutes when playing so poorly?  Was he promised minutes?

He has really only played poorly the last two games.

[MerrittsMustache]

He has really only played poorly the last two games.

Not true. Vander only plays well when he scores in double-figures. If he doesn't do that then he's useless, has obviously been promised playing time and will likely transfer at season's end.

[Stretchdeltsig]

Tomorrow's game against Villanova will tell a lot.

[NersEllenson]

Unfortunately, Vander is a product of very poor youth coaching, and it is now coming back to bite him big time.

The reason why he struggles so much against quality (high-major) competition is that he can't drive the basketball. And he can't drive it because he plays too upright. That's why he gets cut off going baseline so much. His defender beats him to the spot.

It takes more than just quickness to drive the basketball. You need proper body technique. Guys that are good at penetrating get lower to the floor and have their bodies learning towards the basket. They can get on the defenders hip and then turn/position themselves by them. Similar to an outside pass rusher in football.

Vander is unable to make that turn because he is so high. Instead he relies on his natural quickness and using his off arm to shield the defender. This works against lower competition, but not against athletic guys who can move their feet. Unless his technique changes, he will struggle driving past guys, especially on the wing.

  Very astute analysis, however, I wouldn't say Vander's inability to get low on his drives is so much a product of coaching, as it is natural body lean/athleticism.  Not sure you can really coach it.  You tend to either have it (Wade), McNeal and Mayo to an extent - or you don't (Vander).  Vander is a very upright player.  Perhaps with some additional strength he'll get some different body lean capability...but just don't think it is something you can really work at...body either allows it or doesn't..

[RJax55]

  Very astute analysis, however, I wouldn't say Vander's inability to get low on his drives is so much a product of coaching, as it is natural body lean/athleticism.  Not sure you can really coach it.  You tend to either have it (Wade), McNeal and Mayo to an extent - or you don't (Vander).  Vander is a very upright player.  Perhaps with some additional strength he'll get some different body lean capability...but just don't think it is something you can really work at...body either allows it or doesn't..

Certainly, some guys have naturally better body lean than others. Butler was terrific in this respect and one of the reasons he was a great driver. However, Vander is very athletic, and I believe he could have been taught to play lower to the floor. You're right to certain exact, he may never have the body lean of McNeal or even a Todd Mayo, but it could be much better than it is today.

Instead, he is almost 100% upright and consistently uses his off arm to clear/shield defenders, which is a horrible habit. Similar to his jump shot, playing upright wasn't a big deal in his youth basketball days because he was so much more athletic than the others kids, but now it is hurting him.

I like Vander and I see value he brings to the game outside of just scoring the basketball. However against high-major teams, he will be a negative in the half court because he's not an outside shooter and  he can't get to the rim. If MU had a big-time scoring PG, along with Jae and DJO, Vander's lack of the offense from the wing wouldn't be so glaring.

[77ncaachamps]

If only we could take Vander's athleticism and defense and graft it with Mayo's offensive prowess.