Espn cover story on Juco transfers

[KipsBayEagle]

Lotta good pub for marquette in there

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/7176910/programs-rely-junior-college-transfers-succeed-season-college-basketball

[tower912]

As clear and logical an explanation for Buzz's early recruitment of JUCO's, as well as how he is now recruiting more HS players.   He did it to sustain the program.    He is doing less of it now.   Still trying to figure out why some have such an issue with it. 

[GGGG]

I don't think people have much of an issue with it any longer.  (The greater) we were uninformed and just knew the stigma.  Once we saw the types of players Buzz brought in, and how good they were for us, I think that changed minds.

[Lennys Tap]

Buzz inherited a great group of seniors but not much behind them. Top 10 ready to play right now high school seniors weren't an option. It was either go Juco or become at best an also ran or at worst a bottom feeder for a couple of years. Those arrogant fans most vocal in their criticisms about Jucos would have also been the most vocal in their criticisms over the inevitable poor W/L records. Gotta love a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" fan.

[ringout]

As clear and logical an explanation for Buzz's early recruitment of JUCO's, as well as how he is now recruiting more HS players.   He did it to sustain the program.    He is doing less of it now.   Still trying to figure out why some have such an issue with it. 

One poster made it an issue.  He's gone.

[bilsu]

As clear and logical an explanation for Buzz's early recruitment of JUCO's, as well as how he is now recruiting more HS players.   He did it to sustain the program.    He is doing less of it now.   Still trying to figure out why some have such an issue with it. 

Probably because a lot of people on this board have issues with just about anything. Look at posts regarding realligment, signing Buzz, recruit commitments and you can see some posters (maybe not all the time) are always looking for the negative.

[MU_LOL]

Probably because a lot of people on this board have issues with just about anything. Look at posts regarding realligment, signing Buzz, recruit commitments and you can see some posters (maybe not all the time) are always looking for the negative.

I'm fairly a n00b, but I find this to be quite true

[GGGG]

One poster made it an issue.  He's gone.

Not initially.  Many expressed concerns early on.

[MUMac]

Not initially.  Many expressed concerns early on.

Many kept on with those concerns for quite some time, ad nauseam.  We'll likely hear from some of those again next year, when Taylor arrives.

[g0lden3agle]

As this article describes, Buzz has done an unreal job in scouting the JuCo talent and finding those with the best character to fit in at MU, both the bball team and the university.  This has allowed for generally positive performance both on and off the court.  Until further notice I'm happy with whoever Buzz signs on, HS recruit or JuCo recruit.

[Benny B]

Personally, I find that more times than not, the JUCO route brings stronger-character players... not necessarily smarter, mature or more talented players (although some may very well be), but namely the persistent personality that comes along with having to go out of your way to accomplish a goal.

Coincidentally, persistence is key to succeeding under Buzz, but wouldn't be as important under Matta or Calipari... so there ya go.


EDIT: Of course, I wrote the above in response to the thread having not read the article first.  Plagiarized Jason King without even knowing it.

[Lennys Tap]

Not initially.  Many expressed concerns early on.

Buzz inherited a great senior class. Behind that was a junior class of Lazar, Acker, Cubillan and Hazel, a sophmore class of nobody and a freshman class of Otule. He hit two homers (Butler and DJO), one triple (Crowder) and one double (Buycks) in the junior college ranks to keep the program prospering. Those who "expressed concerns" about jucos would have been calling for Buzz's head if MU became Depaul or Indiana for a few years while waiting for high school guys to arrive and mature.

[NersEllenson]

Buzz inherited a great senior class. Behind that was a junior class of Lazar, Acker, Cubillan and Hazel, a sophmore class of nobody and a freshman class of Otule. He hit two homers (Butler and DJO), one triple (Crowder) and one double (Buycks) in the junior college ranks to keep the program prospering. Those who "expressed concerns" about jucos would have been calling for Buzz's head if MU became Depaul or Indiana for a few years while waiting for high school guys to arrive and mature.

Well said - several here were hell bent on creating a Catch 22 environment for Buzz - to salvage their own ego, as they'd predicted doom and gloom for MU under Buzz.

Not surprising, some of these same posters (though few are left here at Scoop nowadays), then turned their attention to the fact Buzz can't develop high school talent - due to the JUCO's getting a majority of the minutes.

I have a feeling TJ Taylor will be the next JUCO triple/home run.

[ringout]

Not initially.  Many expressed concerns early on.

I won't argue with you.  Let's say that one kept on and on and on and on.

[StillAWarrior]

To his credit (and to the delight of Marquette fans everywhere), Buzz has done an outstanding job recruiting jucos.  But anyone who read the ESPN article should understand why there was some concern in the early days.  Here's a hint from the article:  "For every junior college player who experiences high-level success with a Division I program, there are hundreds of others who don't."  It seems to me that one of the main points of this article is that history shows us that Buzz's success in this area is the exception, and not the rule.

Some people - including me - were concerned because we'd seen programs that relied heavily on jucos and things hadn't turned out well.  I think there was a fairly wide-spread stigma associated with juco players.  Whether it was fair or not (I honestly haven't seen any data one way or the other), it was a real stigma and didn't originate on this board and it wasn't limited to this board.

Fortunately, Buzz did a great job recruiting and got great players.  It worked, and that's great for Marquette.  I'm going to go ahead and assume that the reason it worked is because Buzz did things right.  He (and/or his staff) effectively evaluated the talent and character of the players and brought guys in who were able to immediately contribute.  It was exactly what the program needed.

But, I don't apologize for my initial concern.  At the time, Buzz was a relative unknown quantity, and I evaluated his actions based upon what I'd seen in the past.  

[MerrittsMustache]

To his credit (and to the delight of Marquette fans everywhere), Buzz has done an outstanding job recruiting jucos.  But anyone who read the ESPN article should understand why there was some concern in the early days.  Here's a hint from the article:  "For every junior college player who experiences high-level success with a Division I program, there are hundreds of others who don't."  It seems to me that one of the main points of this article is that history shows us that Buzz's success in this area is the exception, and not the rule.

Some people - including me - were concerned because we'd seen programs that relied heavily on jucos and things hadn't turned out well.  I think there was a fairly wide-spread stigma associated with juco players.  Whether it was fair or not (I honestly haven't seen any data one way or the other), it was a real stigma and didn't originate on this board and it wasn't limited to this board.

Fortunately, Buzz did a great job recruiting and got great players.  It worked, and that's great for Marquette.  I'm going to go ahead and assume that the reason it worked is because Buzz did things right.  He (and/or his staff) effectively evaluated the talent and character of the players and brought guys in who were able to immediately contribute.  It was exactly what the program needed.

But, I don't apologize for my initial concern.  At the time, Buzz was a relative unknown quantity, and I evaluated his actions based upon what I'd seen in the past.  

Well said.

The main quote that stood out to me in the article was at the very end. Buzz: "If you do things right and do your research, it can definitely work."

Basically, you can't just bring in any ol' talented Juco player and expect him to contribute and to "get it." You have to pick the right guys who fit what you do and fit the culture that the coach has created. Buzz has done an excellent job of that.

[muwarrior69]

I know it was a different time, but Al also had success bringing in Juco players. Which is why I was puzzled by all the concern over Juco's to begin with.

[MUMac]

Well said.

The main quote that stood out to me in the article was at the very end. Buzz: "If you do things right and do your research, it can definitely work."

Basically, you can't just bring in any ol' talented Juco player and expect him to contribute and to "get it." You have to pick the right guys who fit what you do and fit the culture that the coach has created. Buzz has done an excellent job of that.

Remember a few factors, though, that many have pointed out.  First, most of these were not your typical JC player.  Not there for grades (Byucks and Crowder being the exception, to an extent DJO).  Secondly, most of the players, again, Byucks and Crowder being the exception, played only one year of JC and were able to get on Campus early in the summer.  Assimilate into MU - academically, athletically and the program.  Lastly, Buzz' connections in the JC world.  He can get information many other coaches can't, because of that. 

Those were the arguments many of us were making at the time and throughout the years.  I will not speak for all, but I know I felt that those who were critical never gave those points the consideration they were due.

[Henry Sugar]

To his credit (and to the delight of Marquette fans everywhere), Buzz has done an outstanding job recruiting jucos.  But anyone who read the ESPN article should understand why there was some concern in the early days.  Here's a hint from the article:  "For every junior college player who experiences high-level success with a Division I program, there are hundreds of others who don't."  It seems to me that one of the main points of this article is that history shows us that Buzz's success in this area is the exception, and not the rule.

Some people - including me - were concerned because we'd seen programs that relied heavily on jucos and things hadn't turned out well.  I think there was a fairly wide-spread stigma associated with juco players.  Whether it was fair or not (I honestly haven't seen any data one way or the other), it was a real stigma and didn't originate on this board and it wasn't limited to this board.

Fortunately, Buzz did a great job recruiting and got great players.  It worked, and that's great for Marquette.  I'm going to go ahead and assume that the reason it worked is because Buzz did things right.  He (and/or his staff) effectively evaluated the talent and character of the players and brought guys in who were able to immediately contribute.  It was exactly what the program needed.

But, I don't apologize for my initial concern.  At the time, Buzz was a relative unknown quantity, and I evaluated his actions based upon what I'd seen in the past.  

Just to expand on this a bit further, a few years back I looked at the contributions of JUCO players in the BE.  Here was the conclusion:

"what this limited set of information suggests is that it is rare for a first year JUCO player to be more than a complete non-factor, let alone a legitimate stud."

Delivering on Butler, Crowder, and DJO show that Buzz has an exceptional skill at identifying the right players. 

http://www.crackedsidewalks.com/2009/10/jucos-in-big-east.html

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

To his credit (and to the delight of Marquette fans everywhere), Buzz has done an outstanding job recruiting jucos.  But anyone who read the ESPN article should understand why there was some concern in the early days.  Here's a hint from the article:  "For every junior college player who experiences high-level success with a Division I program, there are hundreds of others who don't."  It seems to me that one of the main points of this article is that history shows us that Buzz's success in this area is the exception, and not the rule.

Some people - including me - were concerned because we'd seen programs that relied heavily on jucos and things hadn't turned out well.  I think there was a fairly wide-spread stigma associated with juco players.  Whether it was fair or not (I honestly haven't seen any data one way or the other), it was a real stigma and didn't originate on this board and it wasn't limited to this board.

Fortunately, Buzz did a great job recruiting and got great players.  It worked, and that's great for Marquette.  I'm going to go ahead and assume that the reason it worked is because Buzz did things right.  He (and/or his staff) effectively evaluated the talent and character of the players and brought guys in who were able to immediately contribute.  It was exactly what the program needed.

But, I don't apologize for my initial concern.  At the time, Buzz was a relative unknown quantity, and I evaluated his actions based upon what I'd seen in the past.  

+1.

Well stated.

[Lennys Tap]

To his credit (and to the delight of Marquette fans everywhere), Buzz has done an outstanding job recruiting jucos.  But anyone who read the ESPN article should understand why there was some concern in the early days.  Here's a hint from the article:  "For every junior college player who experiences high-level success with a Division I program, there are hundreds of others who don't."  It seems to me that one of the main points of this article is that history shows us that Buzz's success in this area is the exception, and not the rule.

Some people - including me - were concerned because we'd seen programs that relied heavily on jucos and things hadn't turned out well.  I think there was a fairly wide-spread stigma associated with juco players.  Whether it was fair or not (I honestly haven't seen any data one way or the other), it was a real stigma and didn't originate on this board and it wasn't limited to this board.

Fortunately, Buzz did a great job recruiting and got great players.  It worked, and that's great for Marquette.  I'm going to go ahead and assume that the reason it worked is because Buzz did things right.  He (and/or his staff) effectively evaluated the talent and character of the players and brought guys in who were able to immediately contribute.  It was exactly what the program needed.

But, I don't apologize for my initial concern.  At the time, Buzz was a relative unknown quantity, and I evaluated his actions based upon what I'd seen in the past.  

Concern? Fair enough. As Sugar points out, the chances that our jucos would be Big East impact players were statistically slim. Buzz was faced with two alternatives - try to rebuild on the fly with jucos or accept being middling to really bad for a few years. I would have been infinitely more concerned about a coach (unknown quanity or not) who opted for plan B.

[brewcity77]

Concern? Fair enough. As Sugar points out, the chances that our jucos would be Big East impact players were statistically slim. Buzz was faced with two alternatives - try to rebuild on the fly with jucos or accept being middling to really bad for a few years. I would have been infinitely more concerned about a coach (unknown quanity or not) who opted for plan B.

Interestingly enough, it seemed like our old coach opted for Plan B in Indiana. I definitely don't mean to turn this into a Buzz v TC thread, but I wonder if we had gotten someone more established than Buzz was, would we have given him a few years' leeway, especially if guys like TT and Mbakwe went elsewhere?

Maybe Buzz went the JUCO route because he was trying to protect his job, and expected he wouldn't get as much leniency when it came to success as a more established coach might get. He might have expected he'd need upperclassmen to contend in the Big East, and the only way to get them was to get JUCO transfers.

Regardless, I'm glad it worked, and glad they've represented us well. I think between DJO, JFB, and Jae Crowder, Buzz has done a world of good to change the perception of JUCO players around the country.

[ringout]

Maybe Buzz went the JUCO route because he was trying to protect his job, and expected he wouldn't get as much leniency when it came to success as a more established coach might get. He might have expected he'd need upperclassmen to contend in the Big East, and the only way to get them was to get JUCO transfers.

If this is the case, Buzz is a very good strategic thinker, and read the situation much better than some people would ever give him credit for.

[Lennys Tap]

When TC left abruptly and unexpectedly Marquette was still a relative neophyte in the Big East. Three successful seasons with one more virtually assured might not mean much if the momentum turned 180 degrees for 3 years. My guess is that Buzz went into his interview with a plan (his JC connections) that would keep all the plates spinning until enough high school recruits arrived and were made ready. To their credit, the powers that be understood how difficult it would be for a Marquette to recover from the nuclear winter that loomed on the horizon. They bought into the plan and it's worked out probably even better than even William's thought it would.