Coffee is for closers!

[ringout]

LeBron?

Has there ever been a worse 4th quarter superstar?

[ChicosBailBonds]

LeBron?

Has there ever been a worse 4th quarter superstar?

One of the worst comments I've ever seen on this board, it's as if you are so lazy you are parroting some idiotic talk show host.  For your statement to be true wouldn't you have to willfully ignore the ENTIRE playoffs, not just the Finals, wouldn't you have to ignore past seasons?

I think if you check the 4th quarter of his play in past years and even in this playoffs prior to the Finals, you will find that your comment is stupid....plus the fact he is 26 makes it even dumber considering his time horizon ahead of him

[PaintTouches]

plus the fact he is 26 makes it even dumber considering his time horizon ahead of him

I don't know about that. I believe NBA "miles" are more indicative than years. After Jordan's 8th season he had two rings and was beginning his decline from athletic freak to cerebral assassin on the court. Who is to say LeBron's athleticism doesn't begin to slide in the next year.

And let's be honest, no super-duper mega star is remembered for what they did in the Eastern Conference Divisional Round, it's the finals that matter and there is no denying LeBron played 6 terrible fourth quarters when it mattered most. He averaged 3 points for Pete's sake, made one three, and passed the ball to teammates so quickly you would have thought it was a grenade.  

[wyzgy]

maybe he wasn't feeling all that well cough-cough

[Lennys Tap]

And let's be honest, no super-duper mega star is remembered for what they did in the Eastern Conference Divisional Round, it's the finals that matter and there is no denying LeBron played 6 terrible fourth quarters when it mattered most. He averaged 3 points for Pete's sake, made one three, and passed the ball to teammates so quickly you would have thought it was a grenade.  

The late, great Harry Caray used to say "The big possums walk late", referencing the fact that the true superstars shine late with the game on the line. James was anything but a "big possum" late in the NBA finals. Worse than failing, he played scared, wanting no part in influencing the games' outcomes.

[Benny B]

One of the worst comments I've ever seen on this board, it's as if you are so lazy you are parroting some idiotic talk show host.  For your statement to be true wouldn't you have to willfully ignore the ENTIRE playoffs, not just the Finals, wouldn't you have to ignore past seasons?

I think if you check the 4th quarter of his play in past years and even in this playoffs prior to the Finals, you will find that your comment is stupid....plus the fact he is 26 makes it even dumber considering his time horizon ahead of him

Fourth quarter superstars don't have two off nights in a row in a championship series.  LeBron James isn't a 4th quarter superstar.

So he isn't the worst... he just isn't.

[ringout]

One of the worst comments I've ever seen on this board, it's as if you are so lazy you are parroting some idiotic talk show host.  For your statement to be true wouldn't you have to willfully ignore the ENTIRE playoffs, not just the Finals, wouldn't you have to ignore past seasons?

I think if you check the 4th quarter of his play in past years and even in this playoffs prior to the Finals, you will find that your comment is stupid....plus the fact he is 26 makes it even dumber considering his time horizon ahead of him

Man, talk about personal attacks. 

I was using a movie quote that should'nt need any elaboration.   

Facts are facts.  LBJ was a shrinking violet.  DWade was the man.  Finals are where the leaders are found.  MJ dominated every final series he was in, more so in the 4th quarter.

As for previous seasons, Whose the idiot?  Did I miss a Cavs championship? 

2 years in a row where LBJ gagged in his last series.

[BrewCity83]

Q - Why is LeBron's restaurant open all night?                   
A - He doesn't know how to close.

[BrewCity83]

LeBron was giving a teammate change for a dollar, but only produced 75 cents.  "Sorry, I don't have a fourth quarter," he said.

[MU B2002]

I don't know about that. I believe NBA "miles" are more indicative than years. After Jordan's 8th season he had two rings and was beginning his decline from athletic freak to cerebral assassin on the court. Who is to say LeBron's athleticism doesn't begin to slide in the next year.

How old was Jordan after season #8.  I am thinking Lebron is at least 3 years younger.


(not defending Lebron, just curious.)

[Pakuni]

How old was Jordan after season #8.  I am thinking Lebron is at least 3 years younger.


(not defending Lebron, just curious.)

Jordan turned 29 during his eighth season.
But as has been mentioned, years in the league matter more than actual age. LeBron's body eventually will wear down not because of how old his, but because playing 90+ NBA games a year can do that to you. And unless he develops more of a perimeter game, as Jordan did following comeback #1, his production will take a dive before his Miami contract is up.

FWIW, that Jordan guy was a pretty good closer as a teenager.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-suuy_tgOjo&feature=related

[g0lden3agle]

Jordan turned 29 during his eighth season.
But as has been mentioned, years in the league matter more than actual age. LeBron's body eventually will wear down not because of how old his, but because playing 90+ NBA games a year can do that to you. And unless he develops more of a perimeter game, as Jordan did following comeback #1, his production will take a dive before his Miami contract is up.

FWIW, that Jordan guy was a pretty good closer as a teenager.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-suuy_tgOjo&feature=related

I think he needs to worry about his post moves before he starts concentrating on an outside shot.  Lebron is bigger than just about anyone other teams put on him.  Why he doesn't develop a potent inside game is beyond me.

[LON]

How old was Jordan after season #8.  I am thinking Lebron is at least 3 years younger.


(not defending Lebron, just curious.)

I can't remember where I read it, but I think LeBron has logged something like 30,000 minutes...he is not THAT young.

[RawdogDX]

Chicos:  That was completely over the top.  It doesn't add anything.  
If you limit it to 4th quarter, in the finals, he is in talks for worst.  
--

two cents.  Lebron isn't Jordan.  Name a person who would take Lebron over Jordan for a career, and I'll show you someone who didn't watch them both play.  Not saying you aren't free to change your mind in hte future, but he clearly isn't as driven.  

Jordan had to work hard to make his hs team. He went to college.  Too much too soon effects people. Lebron has been a star for to long, still too much time spent with hs friends.  we'll see if he figures it out.

Lebron puts up 25+ every year.  He hasn't put up 25 in a finals game.  In 10 tries.  He is now first all time in season ppg vs finals drop off.  Number 2 is Wilt.    Lebron is 2-8 in the finals.  EDIT:  Forgot he also got torn up on defence by jason terry.

[Pakuni]

I think he needs to worry about his post moves before he starts concentrating on an outside shot.  Lebron is bigger than just about anyone other teams put on him.  Why he doesn't develop a potent inside game is beyond me.

Developing a post-up game may make James a better player - for a while - but it won't do a thing for extending his status as an elite player. If anything, it'll shorten it. It will lead him to getting pounded by larger player, i.e. power forwards and centers, who will slide over to help.

[MerrittsMustache]

Chicos:  That was completely over the top.  It doesn't add anything.  
If you limit it to 4th quarter, in the finals, he is in talks for worst.  
--

two cents.  Lebron isn't Jordan.  Name a person who would take Lebron over Jordan for a career, and I'll show you someone who didn't watch them both play.  Not saying you aren't free to change your mind in hte future, but he clearly isn't as driven.  

Jordan had to work hard to make his hs team. He went to college.  Too much too soon effects people. Lebron has been a star for to long, still too much time spent with hs friends.  we'll see if he figures it out.

Lebron puts up 25+ every year.  He hasn't put up 25 in a finals game.  In 10 tries.  He is now first all time in season ppg vs finals drop off.  Number 2 is Wilt.    Lebron is 2-8 in the finals.  EDIT:  Forgot he also got torn up on defence by jason terry.

LeBron and Wilt is an excellent comparison from a mindset standpoint. Wilt was a tremendously talented player but he was far too concerned with his numbers and his image. He also shrunk in big moments and lacked that "killer instinct" that so many all-time greats possess (though he did win a couple rings). Just like there's no doubt that LeBron is more talented than Dirk, there's no doubt that Wilt was a more talented player than Bill Russell. Talent alone doesn't win you titles.

[RawdogDX]

Developing a post-up game may make James a better player - for a while - but it won't do a thing for extending his status as an elite player. If anything, it'll shorten it. It will lead him to getting pounded by larger player, i.e. power forwards and centers, who will slide over to help.

Come on, you really think that? 

You think that if someone has a Go To post move, one that doesn't require them to beat a defender off the dribble or jump over someones head, they will be less effective sooner?   So if a 35 year old player's only option, to get around a super athletic 6'8 guy, is to fake and drive around him he'll be able to do that longer than he'd be able to spin and throw up a hook?  Thinking that he'll be able to keep doing what he's been doing as he ages isn't logical.  He'll get old even without an occasional extra hit from a 4.
MJ added a post up game, Kobi added a post up game, Dwight is working on adding a post up game, and Durrant will eventually add a post up game. 

How do you watch a series, where Jason Kidd shuts down Lebron, and not think that it would help if he could back him down?

[BobWildLoyalist]

I wonder what BRMU23 thinks about Lebron?

[Pakuni]

How do you watch a series, where Jason Kidd shuts down Lebron, and not think that it would help if he could back him down?

How do you watch that series and come away thinking Jason Kidd shut down LeBron? Jason Kidd almost never defended LeBron. Dallas tag-teamed LeBron throughout the series with Shawn Marion and DeShawn Stevenson, rotating them in and out frequently to keep them fresh.

Kidd matched up with Wade (poorly, mind you), which is why Dwyane had a far better series than LeBron.
things were just the opposite in the Bulls series, when Chicago could run Brewer and Bogans all game at Wade (who had a subpar series), but only had Deng to match up with LeBron. And while in the Finals Dallas still had fresh defenders to match up with LeBron, Deng was usually dog tired by the end of the game in the Chicago series.

[RawdogDX]

There were several key defencive stops late in games where lebron got stopped by kid.  The decision to swith marion to wade and kidd to lebron was a major factor in the end of game 4.  (or you can just credit lebron sucking)

You are the only person I can think of who thinks a post game would hurt lebron's ability to dominate past 30.  If he starts now he'll own every reccord, otherwise he's going to be relying on his three point shooting way to much once age starts setting in.

[GGGG]

MJ developed a post game later in his career and it extended his reign as a superstar and won the Bulls championships.

The beating you take when posting up is nothing compared to the beating you take when driving to the hoop.  It would cearly extend his career and make him a more lethal scorer.  Frankly, it is a mystery to me *why* he doesn't do it.

[GGGG]

Hubie Brown on Jordan in the post:

http://www.nba.com/jordan/hubieonjordan.html

"And at the end of his career, Michael transformed himself into one of the best post-up players in the NBA. He was nearly unstoppable because he perfected his bump and fadeaway jump shot. That one move, never mind all of the other things that he could do with his back to the basket, made him one of the most dominating post players in the game."


And by the way, Kobe Bryant started working on this aspect of his game a couple of years ago, and it helped lead the Lakers to back-to-back championships.

[Lennys Tap]

There were several key defencive stops late in games where lebron got stopped by kid.  The decision to swith marion to wade and kidd to lebron was a major factor in the end of game 4.  (or you can just credit lebron sucking)

You are the only person I can think of who thinks a post game would hurt lebron's ability to dominate past 30.  If he starts now he'll own every reccord, otherwise he's going to be relying on his three point shooting way to much once age starts setting in.

First, I agree that Lebron MUST develop a post game if he wants to dominate past 30. You get beat up a lot more taking it to the hoop (his plan B to shooting 3s) than you
do backing someone down in the post.

I don't know, though, the answer to how you fix his head. The reason the Mavs could put the very old, very small and now kinda slow Jason Kidd on James in the 4th quarter was that anybody can guard a guy who's playing scared and running away from the ball. The same guy who scored at will against Luol Deng and stopped Derrick Rose cold late in games was lost against the Mavs. He reminded me of George Foreman in the last few rounds of his fight with Ali - confused, frightened and in total disbelief.

[Pakuni]

There were several key defencive stops late in games where lebron got stopped by kid.  The decision to swith marion to wade and kidd to lebron was a major factor in the end of game 4.  (or you can just credit lebron sucking)

So you're saying Kidd "basically shut down" LeBron in the series because of a roughly 4-5 minute stretch of one game (it was game 5, not 4, I believe) in which LeBron only took three shots, making one of them, and beat Kidd on another play, only to get called for a charge?
Also, that switch occurred entirely because Carlisle recognized James was again out of the game  - he'd taken only one shot in the fourth quarter to that point - and he needed to get a better defender on Wade, who had seven points and three assists through the first 6:44 of the quarter.
Kidd most definitely didn't shut down James.
James shut down James by choosing not to attack Kidd the way Wade had.

[RawdogDX]

I don't care if it was only for 4 or 5 minutes.  Kidd's giving up 7 inches and 80 pounds.  Lebron didn't have a post game.  If he did, they wouldn't have had considered putting kidd on him.  Thus wade would have continued to abuse kidd. 

His lack of a post game cost him.  It will again, if he doesn't start working on it. 

I don't really care if i saw more value, in what kidd did on D, we don't have to agree on semantics.  If you think it is an overstatement to say that "Kidd shut down lebron", you are probably right...

But, You were the one who said it would be bad for his longevity to practice a hook shot.  That is crazy talk to me.  If he wants to be a top 5-10 player all time, he can kick back and relax.  He needs a post up game to be top 3.