Futbol Talk

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

The Championship used to be on BEIN Sports.  They would show a game every week and it was pretty good stuff.  Still have big crowds and decent play at that level.  I guess ESPN now owns the rights and you can only get games on ESPN+.

Another option could be that they need to convert League One and Two to semi-pro and/or amateaur status.  Maybe I don't understand the cost structure enough but I think most third and fourth tier leagues in Europe have that status.  Even in Germany and Spain.

[JWags85]

The Championship used to be on BEIN Sports.  They would show a game every week and it was pretty good stuff.  Still have big crowds and decent play at that level.  I guess ESPN now owns the rights and you can only get games on ESPN+.

I remember that.  I didn't know the extent to which ESPN+ was showing.  Its definitely still high level play, and you have many "familiar" clubs, over half the current Championship has been in the EPL sometime in the last decade.  They have large stadiums, recognizable names and players.  Hell, I'm pretty sure cutting out the inflated DP salaries, Championship has significantly higher wages than MLS.

I think that this is really the only option.  We're still so vastly untapped compared to many of the other huge markets out there.  Throw in that the unpredictability is so much larger at the lower divisions and you can really pour it on.  Weird that IMO, we're seen as the most viable long term solution for aspects of English soccer.

Well, the money is in merchandise and TV rights.  So for that to grow, you need new markets.  The rest of Europe has their own domestic clubs and comps to pay attention to.  It leaves the US and Asia, and the time difference doesn't make it super conducive to go hard there, outside of the EPL names.  Weird a bit, but in the global sense, doesn't seem that odd at all.  NFL and NBA look at the UK as a growth market and potential growth solutions, which is more odd to me.

Another option could be that they need to convert League One and Two to semi-pro and/or amateaur status.  Maybe I don't understand the cost structure enough but I think most third and fourth tier leagues in Europe have that status.  Even in Germany and Spain.

Germany and Spain go down to 3rd.  And then the 4th begins semi-pro.  But the difference there, is the 3rd division is littered with the youth (B) squads of La Liga and Bundesliga clubs.  So I think that changes the whole dynamic as it pertains to funding, profit sharing, etc...

[brewcity77]

I've been following the stories around the English Football League and the financial problems of its members for awhile now.  The EFL are the three leagues underneath the Premier League.  Essentially one team is about to be kicked out of the League, with another team not that far behind.  And rumors are that a lot more are going to be in similar straights within the next decade.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2019/08/20/experts-warned-efl-two-years-ago-clubs-like-bolton-bury-faced/

The basic problem is that interest, and the money that follows it, is concentrating more and more at the top.

The incentives to get to the top are also bigger than ever before. That's why the Championship Playoff is football's richest game. The winner is in line for a $200M+ windfall for making the Prem. There's actually discussion that teams making the EPL do so in hopes of getting relegated shortly thereafter so they can build a young, high quality Championship team that can then get promoted again and stick around.

As a Reading supporter, I've seen both sides. The record setting 2006 campaign led to two EPL seasons with a young foundation of legit Prem players like Steve Sidwell, Marcus Hahnemann, Nickey Shorey, Kevin Doyle, and others. But after relegation and an unsuccessful return attempt, those stars mostly left. A rebuild saw another single season return, but it's been a mix of playoff losses and relegation (from the Championship) battles.

In the front office, the stability from John Madejski ended when he sold to a Russian oil oligarch, who ran out of money and sold to another billionaire, then another. We're on owner #4 in the past decade, all chasing the riches of the Premier League. The trend is usually the same. New owner, new manager, spend big, challenge for promotion, lose the roster when everyone leaves, spiral toward relegation.

Right now we're on the upward trend. New owner (Dai Yongge) hired a new manager (Jose Gomes) who saved us from relegation last year. We spent big, bringing in Ovie Ejaria from Liverpool, Matt Miazga from Chelsea, Rafael Cabral from Sampdoria, and George Puscas from Inter Milan, among others. The team looks primed for promotion, but I'm already worried what 2-3 years from now might look like.

There's just such a wealth disparity from the PL to the EFL, and so many trying to enter the PL on the cheap by buying a lower league team and bailing if they don't deliver promotion.

If English football as we know it is to survive, I think they need more shared revenue from the Prem to the lower leagues. Without that, this already near unbreachable divide will only grow larger.

[Billy Hoyle]

I've been following the stories around the English Football League and the financial problems of its members for awhile now.  The EFL are the three leagues underneath the Premier League.  Essentially one team is about to be kicked out of the League, with another team not that far behind.  And rumors are that a lot more are going to be in similar straights within the next decade.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2019/08/20/experts-warned-efl-two-years-ago-clubs-like-bolton-bury-faced/

The basic problem is that interest, and the money that follows it, is concentrating more and more at the top.

If you haven’t watched Sunderland Till I Die on Netflix it’s a great profile on what a relegated squad has to deal with in terms of roster and community support. And those fans are lunatics!

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

The Championship is some of the most fun football Ive ever seen.

Obviously it’s a step down from the Prem in terms of pure player quality, but man those games are a blast.

[brewcity77]

The Championship is some of the most fun football Ive ever seen.

Obviously it’s a step down from the Prem in terms of pure player quality, but man those games are a blast.

The Championship is fantastic, especially because it's actually unpredictable. I miss having it on BeIn every week.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

If English football as we know it is to survive, I think they need more shared revenue from the Prem to the lower leagues. Without that, this already near unbreachable divide will only grow larger.

I'm not sure that the EPL teams care all that much about "English football as we know it."  In today's age, I'm not sure it's sustainable because it's based on television revenue and the viewership that goes along with that.  Why go out and watch some local League 2 team play when Man City and Liverpool  are playing on television?

They may just need to implement salary caps at these lower leagues.

[Pakuni]

I'm not sure that the EPL teams care all that much about "English football as we know it."  In today's age, I'm not sure it's sustainable because it's based on television revenue and the viewership that goes along with that.  Why go out and watch some local League 2 team play when Man City and Liverpool  are playing on television?

Probably for some of the same reasons tens of thousands of people fill college football and basketball stadiums every Saturday when the Patriots, Cowboys, Warriors and Lakers are on TV ..
 i.e. tradition, local pride, the in-person experience, it's the only game in town, etc.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Probably for some of the same reasons tens of thousands of people fill college football and basketball stadiums every Saturday when the Patriots, Cowboys, Warriors and Lakers are on TV ..

Except college football doesn't go up against the NFL.  And college basketball largely avoids the meat of the NBA season.  And regular season attendance for both is decreasing anyway.

But the point is that those two sports are less dependent on attendance as they are on television revenue.  And they aren't professional either.  My guess is that if League 1 or 2 were semi-pro or amateur, their cost model would allow them to be more profitable.

[brewcity77]

I'm not sure that the EPL teams care all that much about "English football as we know it."  In today's age, I'm not sure it's sustainable because it's based on television revenue and the viewership that goes along with that.  Why go out and watch some local League 2 team play when Man City and Liverpool  are playing on television?

They may just need to implement salary caps at these lower leagues.

I don't expect them to care, I don't expect this to change, but the Football League is awesome, and in many ways more entertaining than the top flights where only 3-4 teams are actually competing for the top spots. It would also be tough to have a cap that allows any roster consistency when teams with hundred million pound budget are relegated. There's no easy answer, it's just disappointing to see because pro/rel is one of the best things about European football.

[Pakuni]

Except college football doesn't go up against the NFL.  And college basketball largely avoids the meat of the NBA season.  And regular season attendance for both is decreasing anyway.

Are you suggesting the primary reason 100k fans pack the Big House or Kyle Field or Death Valley is because the Lions, Cowboys and Saints don't play on Saturdays? I'm not sure that's true.
Not sure what you define as the "meat" of the NBA season, but let's say from Christmas through the playoffs. In which case, there's a substantial overlap between the two seasons. A large majority of NBA gamesd, even if you include playoffs, occur during the college basketball season.
And if we're talking about attendance, of course college football (and basketball) go against their pro counterparts. It's not as if people have their "Saturday" discretionary income/free time and "Sunday" discretionary income/free time. 

As for declining attendance, I've read quite a bit about it, and there are plenty of plausibke reasons for it. But not once have I heard or read it suggested that attendance is declining "because people would rather watch the NFL/NBA."


And the rest, not sure that's relevant to the question you asked (and I answered) as to why a person would go out to watch a lower-level competition when they can watch the top flight on TV.
The reality is people do that around the world in droves (MiLB, MLS, KHL hockey, etc.), for the reasons I mentioned.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Pakuni, yes I think if college football teams went up against the NFL, college football would suffer from the lack of attention in most areas of the country.  Locally, UW attendance would be much less if they went up against the Packers.  Ditto for most places in the Big Ten. 

But here is an excellent "research report" from England.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/football-league/premier-league-epl-efl-league-one-two-championship-miguel-delaney-a8926126.html

"Research by figures who have worked with the lower leagues suggest that most 18- to 24-year-olds now consume sport in a totally different way.

Priced out of many stadiums, they have alternative interests and prefer to watch games digitally because it allows more intense conversation on social media and WhatsApp. There, they can immediately access replays of goals and discuss them. This is where the huge focus of the top clubs has an even greater effect, especially in terms of digital interaction. That’s before you even get to the bigger debate over how e-sports, and playing football on consoles, are more popular than playing it on grass.

“If you’re a teenager and you have access to Fifa, social media, live Premier League and Champions League games, and you can play yourself, where does going to Wigan Athletic games for £20 a pop fit into that?” one government source said.

Even the language lower league clubs use to sell tickets is now completely different.

“The old-school dad-and-lad approach regarding your induction into football doesn’t exist to the same extent it used to,” Maguire argues. “And also going along with your schoolmates, because people can stream, and have access to so many matches.

“So, for League One and League Two clubs, they’re now competing on a Tuesday and Wednesday night with Champions League football. And, with the best will in the world, if it is Doncaster Rovers against Colchester United, it has limited appeal when you’ve got the glamour and the glitz of the Champions League matches – which cost relatively less to consume. You don’t have to get out of the house, where you can be online.”

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

I dunno man, I’d rather watch some league two football, over some of those Champions League group stage matchups.

Fulham in the Championship rivaled any Premier League game environment. Sutton (post-FA cup run) was a blast as well, and they weren’t even League Football.

It really all depends on context though. To use the NFL/NCAA example, it the Bears are hot garbage and played on the same day as Northwestern, you best believe I’m going to that Northwestern game.

[brewcity77]

Pakuni, yes I think if college football teams went up against the NFL, college football would suffer from the lack of attention in most areas of the country.  Locally, UW attendance would be much less if they went up against the Packers.  Ditto for most places in the Big Ten.

This varies greatly by the part of the country you live in. If the NFL went up against college in Florida, I have zero doubt whatsoever FSU, Florida, or Miami wouldn't be struggling for attendance, though the Jaguars, Bucs, and Dolphins certainly would be. I suspect the same is true in Texas and most of the southern states.

I don't want to dive too deep into that well, but there is still interest in the smaller leagues, and often it is just as passionate as the interest in the top flights. I do think they need to find more creative ways to keep bringing fans in, and feel it's more difficult as the wealth gap grows, but there is an interest there.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

This varies greatly by the part of the country you live in. If the NFL went up against college in Florida, I have zero doubt whatsoever FSU, Florida, or Miami wouldn't be struggling for attendance, though the Jaguars, Bucs, and Dolphins certainly would be. I suspect the same is true in Texas and most of the southern states.

Which is why I said "in most areas of the country."

As for college football attendance in Florida...

https://www.tampabay.com/sports/florida-gators/2018/12/04/florida-gators-fsu-football-had-worst-attendance-years-since-the-90s/

That average attendance for FSU is actually less than the Jacksonville Jaguars draw.  And the Miami Dolphins routinely outdraw the Hurricanes.

[Pakuni]

Pakuni, yes I think if college football teams went up against the NFL, college football would suffer from the lack of attention in most areas of the country.  Locally, UW attendance would be much less if they went up against the Packers.  Ditto for most places in the Big Ten. 

You're answering a question nobody asked.
And making a weird (and obviously false) assumption that the people who go to college football games are the same people who go to NFL games. Except for perhaps an infinitesimally small number of fans, people don't attend a college game on Saturday and then a pro game on Sunday.
And I don't think fans would abandon their college season tickets in droves because the nearest NFL team plays on the same day. They'd just DVR the game they're missing.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

You're answering a question nobody asked.
And making a weird (and obviously false) assumption that the people who go to college football games are the same people who go to NFL games. Except for perhaps an infinitesimally small number of fans, people don't attend a college game on Saturday and then a pro game on Sunday.
And I don't think fans would abandon their college season tickets in droves because the nearest NFL team plays on the same day. They'd just DVR the game they're missing.

I think a fair number of UW season ticket holders would stay home and watch a Packer game instead of attending a Badger game.

But regardless, what is happening in League 1 and 2 isn't a hypothetical.  It is actually happening.  People aren't attending the games.  There seems to be less loyalty to the local clubs.

[Its DJOver]

I think a fair number of UW season ticket holders would stay home and watch a Packer game instead of attending a Badger game.

But regardless, what is happening in League 1 and 2 isn't a hypothetical.  It is actually happening.  People aren't attending the games.  There seems to be less loyalty to the local clubs.

I don't think it's a loyalty issue, I think it just comes down to numbers.  330 million people for 32 NLF teams (and overlap with college football happens frequently and is encouraged).  66 million people for 92 professional soccer teams (where there is very little to no overlap within the country).  The bigger clubs are still growing because if you're looking for a club to start supporting why not go for one of the big boys.  Bury's stadium is 11 miles from the Etihad and 14 from Old Trafford.  Unless you're in a Chicago/NY/LA-esque market, three professional teams cannot co-exist that close to each other.

[JWags85]

I don't think it's a loyalty issue, I think it just comes down to numbers.  330 million people for 32 NLF teams (and overlap with college football happens frequently and is encouraged).  66 million people for 92 professional soccer teams (where there is very little to no overlap within the country).  The bigger clubs are still growing because if you're looking for a club to start supporting why not go for one of the big boys.  Bury's stadium is 11 miles from the Etihad and 14 from Old Trafford.  Unless you're in a Chicago/NY/LA-esque market, three professional teams cannot co-exist that close to each other.

Its also 35 miles from Anfield and Goodison Park.  And covering that short distance to Liverpool, you cross over Bolton and Wigan, who have both been in the EPL within the last 6-7 years.  For a club like Bury that hasn't sniffed the top division since WWII, thats a huge problem.  Interestingly Bolton is also at a crossroads of financial problems despite their fairly recent success.

The saturation of soccer success in that M62 corridor right there is pretty impressive and a death sentence for a middling club like Bury.

[Pakuni]

But regardless, what is happening in League 1 and 2 isn't a hypothetical.  It is actually happening.  People aren't attending the games.  There seems to be less loyalty to the local clubs.

I agree that fewer people are attending the games.
I don't agree that it's because Liverpool and Man City are on TV. Top flight matches have been on TV in the UK since the early 80s.
I think it, as with American sports, far more likely is the result of a variety of factors, including cost, convenience, the declining gameday experience, more alternatives, changing ways in which people consume entertainment, etc.

[mu03eng]

Its also 35 miles from Anfield and Goodison Park.  And covering that short distance to Liverpool, you cross over Bolton and Wigan, who have both been in the EPL within the last 6-7 years.  For a club like Bury that hasn't sniffed the top division since WWII, thats a huge problem.  Interestingly Bolton is also at a crossroads of financial problems despite their fairly recent success.

The saturation of soccer success in that M62 corridor right there is pretty impressive and a death sentence for a middling club like Bury.

One could actually make the argument, given the modern infrastructure, entertainment experience, that there are simply too many clubs in the system. A lot of these clubs pre-date WWII where people didn't leave their town much so they supported their local club because it was the only option. I argue that this is actually evidence of the need for contraction within the PL/EFL system to reduce the club footprint.

As an example, the greater London metro complex has 9.7 million people (roughly 30% more people than the greater MKE complex) and is home to 5 PL clubs, 5 EFL Championship clubs, and one each of EFL One and EFL Two. 12 clubs serving 9.7 million people? Even if you treated every team the same in the MKE market you get what 8 sports teams that are significant draws (Bucks, Brewers, Marquette MBB, Packers, Badger MBB, Badger Football, UW Milwaukee, Admirals) and that would have to include the Madison area as well if we include the Badgers.

[brewcity77]

It's also worth acknowledging the PL & EFL are not an exhaustive list of the clubs in England. There were 736 teams in last year's FA Cup. There are literally hundreds of teams that could theoretically be in the Premier League in the next 10-15 years.

[Its DJOver]

https://www.buryfc.co.uk/news/2019/august/volunteers-needed/

300 people showed up to clean for free.  A food truck showed up to feed everyone for free.  Even Bolton sent over some help (https://twitter.com/buryfcofficial/status/1166352831613476864).  They can't even afford to get a full mascot suit, but they still have support.  I don't think anyone's loyalty should be questioned.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

https://www.buryfc.co.uk/news/2019/august/volunteers-needed/

300 people showed up to clean for free.  A food truck showed up to feed everyone for free.  Even Bolton sent over some help (https://twitter.com/buryfcofficial/status/1166352831613476864).  They can't even afford to get a full mascot suit, but they still have support.  I don't think anyone's loyalty should be questioned.

Bury's been booted from the Football League.

[brewcity77]

Really unfortunate to see the Bury news. Terrible for the fans and players