Is MU BB program an underacheiver, or overacheiver, since 1985?

[Goose]

dgies---No doubt the hiring of Hank was the start of a downturn that lasted nearly two decades. In my opinion Al wanted his legacy to remain intact and hiring Hank would assure that. Hank was ureal guy and thought the world of him. Unfortunately he was inheriting arguably the first Showtime in basketball. Young posters do not realize the era and the role MU/AL played in the landscape of the NCAA.

I fully understand the contract Buzz was given because we need him to be successful and be here 10y plus. The guy can recruit and has some style. Truthfully I wish he would a hire a Hank Jr. and do what he does best. Al could have won with you as #1 assistant, but Buzz needs help in that front.

BCHoopster--Mark Aquire was gone the day resigned in Dec. 1976. Part of me is pissed at Al because he helped make Ray Meyer than he helped make Hank. Aquire had verbally committed to Al and when he retired it opened the field. Once again showing Al had more power retired than Hank had coaching.

[Earl Tatum]

Hey 9156 -  Guess you're right about Hank. Great person but not adynamic coach to get the city players. Needed a big name coach. If I remember right, correct me if I'm wrong, the administration kind of stepped in after Al, about $$'s spent on the program. Don't know who the head padre was at that time.

[4everwarriors]

You cats are all too old to be postin' on the net.

[NYWarrior]

The program changed when Hank did not want Skip Dillard, which lost him Mark Aquirre, because he thought
he had Scooter McCray.  Secondly, Dean Marquardt was never the player after his injury.  Hank thought that
Rick was a rising star, not really. 

also, Rod Foster was an MU verbal but switched to UCLA at he last minute.  That might have been the same year that MU lost the McCrays

[Goose]

4everWarriors---Fortunately I am one on the young old cats on here. Just was fortunate enough to be very close to the program from age 5 on. I do appreciate the really old cats on here a ton though. You guys understand what made it happen and what is needed to be done again.


BCHoopster---Losing the McCray boys hurt as well. Plus the pipeline from high school down the road. Al would have owned Earl Tatum's hometown for another decade.

[bilsu]

Hey 9156 -  Guess you're right about Hank. Great person but not adynamic coach to get the city players. Needed a big name coach. If I remember right, correct me if I'm wrong, the administration kind of stepped in after Al, about $$'s spent on the program. Don't know who the head padre was at that time.

You are wrong about Hank. He had a rough start with MU losing in the first round of the NCAA tournament after Whitehead was ejected and than lost Scooter McCray. The only team he had that did not win 20 games was the year Marquardt almost died in the car accident. However, when he turned the team over to Majerus every position had a top 30 high school player. Of course the best of them, Rivers decided to go hardship. The big overweight center never got it going and transferred out. Dwayne Johnson also transferred out for his senior year. Mandy Johnson and Kerry Trotter finished their careers at MU. Looking at the group you may not think they were that highly rated, but I have the Street & Smith magazines that shows that every one of them were considered to be one of the top 30 high school seniors going into their senior year. If Hank had stayed we had a shot at Joe Wolf, who did not want to play for Majerus who had no experience as a head coach. After a slow start the program was on an uptick under Hank. The fact is that Raymond's turned over a much more talented team to Majerus than Majerus turned over to Dukiet. Sure McGuire turned over a great team to Raymond's, but they were all seniors except for Toone and Bird. The rest were bench warmers.

[BCHoopster]

Joe was seriously thinking about MU.  From Joes mouth, Joe told MU not to leak the story but somehow
the story was leaked in the Journal before Joe had his press conference and changed his mind.  I am sure
that changed Ricks mind in the future.  Can not say Joe made a bad choice, but a good choice for his future.

[4everwarriors]

The Majerus era was a complete diaster any way you look at it. Yeah Hank got much better talent, but really didn't do enough with it. His assistants (Majerus, Oliver) were weak and ESPN wS coming to the forefront so high level recruits were comfortable going to a wide variety of programs, not just the top 20.

[dgies9156]

You are wrong about Hank. He had a rough start with MU losing in the first round of the NCAA tournament after Whitehead was ejected...

MU's downfall started on that dreary day in Indianapolis  in March 1978 when we lost to Miami of Ohio in the first round of the 1978 NCAA Tournament. A defending national champion losing in the first round to a mid-major? That's like today having a 1 seed lose to a 16 seed. It never happens.. ever. Except once.

Thousands of MU "Meet me in St. Louis" t-shirts went up in smoke that afternoon. St. Louis was the site of the NCAA Final Four that year.

The fact that the coach could not get control of his players and deal with the double flagerent foul is beyond belief. Andf while fewer people probably remember than game than they do Dean Marquardt, the fact is that we went on a death spiral that it took Kevin O'Neill to turn around.

All of the Al arguments about ego etc., may be true. But it took an administration to execute on Al's recommendations. The decision on Al's successor still rested at the foot of Father John Raynor and Quentin Quade, both of whom went on an expense control kick in the 1970s. Also, if my senile head is still on straight, I also remember that there was a serious questioning of the role of basketball in university life at Marquette in the late 1970s. Many professors complained about the fact that the highest paid university employee was the head basketball coach -- oblivious to the fact that the very buildings they taught in were bought and paid for with basketball money (including contributions raised because of the visibility of the Al led basketball program.

One lasting legacy of Father Wild is that he restored basketball at Marquette by hiring Tom Crean and later Buzz. Father recognizes that we don't exist for basketball, but basketball creates visibility for the university and links its various constituencies. Father Wild desevered having his own bobblehead last year because he has been the patron saint of the basketball program.

[4everwarriors]

Yeah, it often seemed like Hank struggled to make a coaching decision, even something as minor as calling a time out. Unfortunately, his choice of Dukiet, years later, nearly took us to the depths of D3 ball.

[ChicosBailBonds]

MU's downfall started on that dreary day in Indianapolis  in March 1978 when we lost to Miami of Ohio in the first round of the 1978 NCAA Tournament. A defending national champion losing in the first round to a mid-major? That's like today having a 1 seed lose to a 16 seed. It never happens.. ever. Except once.

Thousands of MU "Meet me in St. Louis" t-shirts went up in smoke that afternoon. St. Louis was the site of the NCAA Final Four that year.

The fact that the coach could not get control of his players and deal with the double flagerent foul is beyond belief. Andf while fewer people probably remember than game than they do Dean Marquardt, the fact is that we went on a death spiral that it took Kevin O'Neill to turn around.

All of the Al arguments about ego etc., may be true. But it took an administration to execute on Al's recommendations. The decision on Al's successor still rested at the foot of Father John Raynor and Quentin Quade, both of whom went on an expense control kick in the 1970s. Also, if my senile head is still on straight, I also remember that there was a serious questioning of the role of basketball in university life at Marquette in the late 1970s. Many professors complained about the fact that the highest paid university employee was the head basketball coach -- oblivious to the fact that the very buildings they taught in were bought and paid for with basketball money (including contributions raised because of the visibility of the Al led basketball program.

One lasting legacy of Father Wild is that he restored basketball at Marquette by hiring Tom Crean and later Buzz. Father recognizes that we don't exist for basketball, but basketball creates visibility for the university and links its various constituencies. Father Wild desevered having his own bobblehead last year because he has been the patron saint of the basketball program.

Even when I was in the athletic department there were still some professors (a minority) that wanted basketball deemphasized.  You get that with every university.  Murry Sperber was famous for it at Indiana and wrote College Sports Inc....had him as a guest lecturer and he presented his views and those of other profs.  They were all wrapped up what college is supposed to be, the educating of young men and women and felt athletics had no place.  It was easy for them to point to the excesses.  There seemed to be some bitterness that the basketball coach made 5X they did (more like 10X to 20X now). 

[PJDunn]

Interesting thread.  I went to MU from Hank's first year through the implosion of Majerus.  One lasting memory was having Rick tell a bunch us the story of how MU lost Scooter McCrae over greasy fries and cheeseburgers at Chicagos.  It seemed that Rick walked into Scooter's room to make sure that he was down for the night during a campus visit during a very inopportune time.  Scooter never quite recovered from being busted polishing the old bayonet.  Can't say for sure that the story is true, but it hearing Rick tell it was hilarious.

[Goose]

dgies---You are correct that Al's ego aside Fr. Raynor and QQ were the decision makers at the time. Honestly they did not have a clue and listened to Al. In addition, you are correct that many within the school had a dislike for the program.

As for us losing to Miami was the start of the end I strongly disagree with that. I say when Hank was hired, but would listen to arguments on that. During regular season we were ranked #1 in 1978 and lost at Loyola. That showed that we were now amongst the masses and no longer Showtime.

I would also disagree with anyone's negative thoughts on Rick. While he proved to be better down the road than at MU, but he did get it. Rick swung for the fences with the same elite recruits Al chased. He knew you needed studs to win. Rick might have been the wrong guy at the time but he got the big point. That was proven with his success at Ball State and Utah.

4everWarriors---Hank hiring Dukiet was worst move he ever made. It made his technical against Miami look brilliant. I would have preferred he stepped in for a season and conducted a real search and that is coming from a guy that cringed everytime I heard him announced as Head Coach.

[4everwarriors]

Gary, you're correct on Hank. Basically, he was the wrong guy, at the wrong age, to head up the program.

[Earl Tatum]

Yep! Diges 9156--you are right on. Couldn't think of  the names (Raynor or Quentin Quade )
It was an expensive drop in the budget at the time we were on the top level. Very Poor decisions by people who forgot, that basketball was a big supporter of the school. As previously mentioned---MU's demise started with the Miami, Ohio game.

[dgies9156]

As for us losing to Miami was the start of the end I strongly disagree with that.

OK, this is my last post on this subject. Our underachieving stated in Indianapolis when we lost to Miami of Ohio. That lost still stings 33 years later and old folks still don't hesitate to remind me of it.

Here's why.  We were defending national champions, as has been pointed out here several times, and were either 1 or 2 ranked all season. We had a great record and the magic seemed to be still with us. We had a team full of seniors with excellent senior leadership in Jimmy Boylan, Butch Lee, Jerome Whitehead and Ulice Payne.

We went to the Miami of Ohio game as prohibitive favorites. Our guys looked like a bunch of freshmen, allowing Miami to play close and losing their composure in the end. Hank could not pull the team together and when leadership was deperately needed, nobody took charge.

It would be as if UConn made the tournament next year with this year's team virtually intact and lost to Murray State, Belmont College or Coastal Carolina. Of course, that never happens in today's world.

The game was on national television, which meant more then than it does now, since ESPN was a year away. NBC was the only college game in town once tournament time came. Thousands of potential recruits, their advisors and coaches all saw the meltdown.


Less than a year later, the Big East was formed. Hank was an old grandfatherly figure when compared to John Thompson or Jimmy Valvano. Coaches saw that Hank didn't rally the troops and that senior leadership in that instance, meant nothing. A year later, with ESPN and the Big East, there was much more competition for our recruits and Ray Meyer began outrecruiting Hank in Chicago.

Would it have been any different if we had defeated Miami? Who knows, but we didn't and that the time it mattered.

[Goose]

dgies---Cannot argue with your thought process because we really are saying the same thing. Whether it was the day Hank was hired, the day we lost to Loyola or the day we were embarrassed against Miami it makes little difference. Looking back and reading your lat post I will go along with Miami loss.

Though it has been discussed a ton here in the past I do believe the loss to UNC at home during Rick's last year was the second domino that sent us to D3 levels. His losing Wolf and then losing that game on national TV was the end for Rick. I might be the only guy on here that believes if we win that game our next 15 years would have been much brighter.

Honestly, the hardest part for me back then was the denial of many supporters on how far we sunk and how quickly we sunk. Too many folks at MU and fans were spoiled. Al made it look easy but it was not easy. I am thankful that we have risen from the dead over the past 15 years, but far from satisfied. I want to see the bar raised higher by MU and fans.

[ChicosBailBonds]

4everWarriors---Hank hiring Dukiet was worst move he ever made. It made his technical against Miami look brilliant. I would have preferred he stepped in for a season and conducted a real search and that is coming from a guy that cringed everytime I heard him announced as Head Coach.

Hank didn't have much choice since Rick screwed us over so badly by bailing in July.  Who are you possibly going to get in July?  This is the part I don't get.  People here get all spun up because some guy gave us 9 years, returned us to our best position since McGuire and left for one of the top 5 programs of all-time but also left us with a great team and Buzz Williams and he's the anti-Christ who married his wife to get ahead.  

Yet Rick gave us 3 years and bailed on us in July to become...wait for it...a F-ing assistant for the Milwaukee Bucks.  He left us with a team that was devoid of talent sans Tony Smith and maybe a few marginal players like Reeder, Boone and in a position with no succession at all.  We had to watch coaches from Texas San Antonio and Arkansas Little Rock say no.  Talk about hitting a new low.  Dukiet was a bad hire, but I don't see where we had much to work with.  RIP Hank

[Goose]

Chico's---Agreed Rick hung us out to dry and it sucked. I mentioned it would have been better for Hank to step in for season than hire any of the bum's we interviewed. Two seperate issues in my opinion, Rick screwed us is a given. Hank then made horible situation worse. Plenty of behind the scene things led to Rick leaving and possibly could have been avoided.

I strongly disagree that just because Rick boned us that Hank gets a free pass. Him stepping in or naming interim coach would have been far better options. In addition, he could have cut Duliet losses far earlier than he did.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chico's---Agreed Rick hung us out to dry and it sucked. I mentioned it would have been better for Hank to step in for season than hire any of the bum's we interviewed. Two seperate issues in my opinion, Rick screwed us is a given. Hank then made horible situation worse. Plenty of behind the scene things led to Rick leaving and possibly could have been avoided.

I strongly disagree that just because Rick boned us that Hank gets a free pass. Him stepping in or naming interim coach would have been far better options. In addition, he could have cut Duliet losses far earlier than he did.

Not giving Hank a free pass at all.  An absolutely wonderful human being and great assistant coach.  Some people are meant to be great teachers and assistant coaches but not THE GUY.  I would argue Hank was one of those people.  I think we are on the same page there.

[Goose]

Chico's--Agree completely. He was awesome and great teacher assistant coach. Actually loved hearing stories at his funeral about exactly how much he loved sports and being pat of them. What I loved best was his son's hardly mentioned MU ball. 100% agree on Hank as a person.

[tower912]

I agree about the 86 UNC game being a tipping point.   Most insane atmosphere I ever experienced at the MECCA.   Ours for the taking.  Found a way to lose.   Just like we did all 8 times we played ND while I was there.    Damn you, David Rivers and Jim Dolan(?).    The UNC loss still hurts me more than the Louisville loss last year.   And yes, there were profs that wanted us to drop out of D1.   Mind-boggling.   But back to the OP, on balance, since 1985, we are under-achievers.    The last decade has been closer, but not quite up to, my expectations for the program.    Crean did many good things at MU, but he struggled to put together consecutive good classes and he never really got the recruiting payoff he should have for the FF.    Finally, as to Rick, he wasn't quite ready, influential alum never forgave him for not being Al, and there were lots of rumors floating around when we came back to school that August that the sweater vests weren't at all unhappy that he had jumped; that there might actually have been some pushing, too.   Clearly, Dukiet was even more the wrong guy at the wrong time.   

[ChicosBailBonds]

I agree about the 86 UNC game being a tipping point.   Most insane atmosphere I ever experienced at the MECCA.   Ours for the taking.  Found a way to lose.   Just like we did all 8 times we played ND while I was there.    Damn you, David Rivers and Jim Dolan(?).    The UNC loss still hurts me more than the Louisville loss last year.   And yes, there were profs that wanted us to drop out of D1.   Mind-boggling.   But back to the OP, on balance, since 1985, we are under-achievers.    The last decade has been closer, but not quite up to, my expectations for the program.    Crean did many good things at MU, but he struggled to put together consecutive good classes and he never really got the recruiting payoff he should have for the FF.    Finally, as to Rick, he wasn't quite ready, influential alum never forgave him for not being Al, and there were lots of rumors floating around when we came back to school that August that the sweater vests weren't at all unhappy that he had jumped; that there might actually have been some pushing, too.   Clearly, Dukiet was even more the wrong guy at the wrong time.   

I'm fairly convinced that MU will never get the FF payoff in recruiting that so many people here think we should.  The reason...because it's MU.  Our coaches don't stay long and when you hit a Final Four, every pundit in the country thinks our coach is leaving for a better gig.  Hell, when we make the Sweet 16 they think that.  This effects recruiting.  Until MU can get to a FF or multiple FF's with the SAME coach who shows they aren't on the 2nd train out of the city, then I believe it will be a struggle.  As an example, will Butler have a top 10 class following TWO Final Fours back to back?  I doubt it.  There are plenty of other Final Four teams from the last decade plus that didn't get this mythical bounce people want to talk about, while the blue bloods did.  I contend it's because a lot of players at the very highest levels think that those FF's were a fluke or harder to come by and do not believe the coach \ conditions will remain for that perfect storm to happen again, at least not at a high percentage of likelihood. 

[Nukem2]

Gary, you're correct on Hank. Basically, he was the wrong guy, at the wrong age, to head up the program.

Loved Hank, but you are correct.  Remember sitting at a luncheon for the Milwaukee Classic with assistants from the other participants.  They each agreed Hank was a great guy and coach, but said MU should have gone a different direction.  I've always believed Hank should have been just the AD and that a younger more "charismatic" coach should have been hired. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Loved Hank, but you are correct.  Remember sitting at a luncheon for the Milwaukee Classic with assistants from the other participants.  They each agreed Hank was a great guy and coach, but said MU should have gone a different direction.  I've always believed Hank should have been just the AD and that a younger more "charismatic" coach should have been hired. 

The list of coaches interested was quite the list, according to the chatter when I was there.  Never seen a list and I don't know if one exists, but there was always rumor that the list of resumes\inquiries to replace Al and later Hank, was an impressive list.  I always heard some pretty crazy names, but have no way of knowing if it actually true.