ESPN article on Indiana Elite and IU...."...yeah the whole thing stinks"

[texaswarrior74]

Very interesting article by Mike Fish....can't help but think that the NCAA won't be looking a little harder at this.....

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/otl/news/story?id=6587668

[77ncaachamps]

Already in the SuperBar...

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=27090.0

[Tulsa Warrior]

There's a strong odor surrounding all this.  It appears to be bent and broken rules.  What ethical price should you pay to build a winning program.  I predict an ESPN documentary, 60 Minutes segment and a movie.  This story makes Strike Lee's basketball movie look like child's play.

[ChicosBailBonds]

There's a strong odor surrounding all this.  It appears to be bent and broken rules.  What ethical price should you pay to build a winning program.  I predict an ESPN documentary, 60 Minutes segment and a movie.  This story makes Strike Lee's basketball movie look like child's play.

I'm curious who is breaking the rules in your mind?  The AAU team or Duke (using Indiana Elite players), Purdue (using Indiana Elite players), Butler (using Indiana Elite players), Indiana (using Indiana Elite players), North Carolina (using Indiana Elite players), etc?

If you read the article, sure as hell looks like ESPN is saying the schools did nothing wrong and anything controversial is on the side of A-Hope and the AAU program.

[brewcity77]

I'm curious who is breaking the rules in your mind?  The AAU team or Duke (using Indiana Elite players), Purdue (using Indiana Elite players), Butler (using Indiana Elite players), Indiana (using Indiana Elite players), North Carolina (using Indiana Elite players), etc?

If you read the article, sure as hell looks like ESPN is saying the schools did nothing wrong and anything controversial is on the side of A-Hope and the AAU program.

Is that why they point out the hiring of the son right before the rule was changed? ESPN painted A-HOPE, Indiana Elite, and their connection to IU as being fishy. You can't possibly tell me you actually read the article and didn't see that.

I don't know that any rules were broken, my guess is that anything close to infractions were technicalities in which the rules were changed after the fact, so IU will almost certainly get away with it. But it's certainly a bit hinky, and anyone who actually read the article would have to see that they're alleging that.

And the reason it's questionable with IU and not the others is because the other schools you mention didn't hire the son of the guy running Indiana Elite. They also paint Tennessee and New Mexico as being possibly shady in this due to the same connection. Do you really not see that?

Chicos, I know you defend Indiana, and I don't necessarily think that they did anything that they would be sanctioned or reprimanded for, but there's no way you can look at this article and not see that they are connecting some dodgy dots to Bloomington.

[Pakuni]

I'm curious who is breaking the rules in your mind?  The AAU team or Duke (using Indiana Elite players), Purdue (using Indiana Elite players), Butler (using Indiana Elite players), Indiana (using Indiana Elite players), North Carolina (using Indiana Elite players), etc?

Which one of these schools hired the AAU coach's son to gain access and favor with the program?

[79Warrior]

I'm curious who is breaking the rules in your mind?  The AAU team or Duke (using Indiana Elite players), Purdue (using Indiana Elite players), Butler (using Indiana Elite players), Indiana (using Indiana Elite players), North Carolina (using Indiana Elite players), etc?

If you read the article, sure as hell looks like ESPN is saying the schools did nothing wrong and anything controversial is on the side of A-Hope and the AAU program.

hiring the guy's son is a little suspect to say the least.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Which one of these schools hired the AAU coach's son to gain access and favor with the program?

Gain favor with a program that you have ties to for 30+ years and earned commitments from in those 30 years?  Interesting.  Well, since that AAU coach's son is gone now, I guess IU will never get another player from that AAU program since apparently the "Favor" is gone now.      It's interesting how you keep ignoring the 30+ year relationship as if it never existed. Equally interesting the number of recruits that IU signed from Elite before Adams was ever employed.  But hey, who's stopping you from telling the whole story...not me...you keep on going.

[brewcity77]

Gain favor with a program that you have ties to for 30+ years and earned commitments from in those 30 years?  Interesting.  Well, since that AAU coach's son is gone now, I guess IU will never get another player from that AAU program since apparently the "Favor" is gone now.      It's interesting how you keep ignoring the 30+ year relationship as if it never existed. Equally interesting the number of recruits that IU signed from Elite before Adams was ever employed.  But hey, who's stopping you from telling the whole story...not me...you keep on going.

1) Someone posted the stat, 3 recruits in 3 years before Adams, 8 recruits in 12 months after his hiring. Do you really think that's coincidence?

2) I explained the "Favor" you spoke of. Adams left for UNM on good terms seemingly, unlike how he left Tennessee. No reason the pipeline will dry up.

3) No one is saying Adams is the only factor, but it seems like all of their best players suddenly headed to Indiana right after he was hired. Again, do you really think that's coincidence?

[mviale]

Crean cant win at Indy without cheating.  Its OK - why do we care?

[NersEllenson]

Gain favor with a program that you have ties to for 30+ years and earned commitments from in those 30 years?  Interesting.  Well, since that AAU coach's son is gone now, I guess IU will never get another player from that AAU program since apparently the "Favor" is gone now.      It's interesting how you keep ignoring the 30+ year relationship as if it never existed. Equally interesting the number of recruits that IU signed from Elite before Adams was ever employed.  But hey, who's stopping you from telling the whole story...not me...you keep on going.

Pretty sure that the Bloomington Red and Indiana Elite are 2 different programs.  THere has not been a 30 year history between IU and the Indiana Elite

[NersEllenson]

1) Someone posted the stat, 3 recruits in 3 years before Adams, 8 recruits in 12 months after his hiring. Do you really think that's coincidence?

2) I explained the "Favor" you spoke of. Adams left for UNM on good terms seemingly, unlike how he left Tennessee. No reason the pipeline will dry up.

3) No one is saying Adams is the only factor, but it seems like all of their best players suddenly headed to Indiana right after he was hired. Again, do you really think that's coincidence?

The fact we are even trying to pacify the ridiculous arguments of CBB is ludicrous.  The Adams family housed Jurkin and Parea in their home.  They provided shelter and food for God's sakes.  Think they held any influence where either kid went to school??!!

The fact our resident Crean lover and Buzz basher is trying to excuse the behavior of TC - when the same poster gets up in arms over the squirmy tactics Buzz Williams allegedly uses in recruiting is comedy. 

[m2162650]

Pretty sure that the Bloomington Red and Indiana Elite are 2 different programs.  THere has not been a 30 year history between IU and the Indiana Elite

Actually, Indiana Elite and Bloomington Red are the same program ran by the same people.....plus or minus a person or two.  JR Holmes from Bloomington South has some power over this....this program has been affiliated with IU for awhile.  Brad Stevens and Matt Painter played for Bloomington Red.......

Again, this was a shot at AHOPE...most likely from Baylor.  They sent out letters to the mass media to "investigate" AHOPE around 5 months ago when they threatened deportation to Perea.  On Indianapolis radio today, Adams stated that the NCAA seemed ok with the travel, computers and cell phones......A lot of the AHOPE kids have the option to fly home to visit.  This only could potentially make Perea pay back the cell phone charges and the computer and he may have to sit out a game.  But, the reporter was wrong about a lot of things and did not tell the whole story.  The email (16 pages long) that was sent to the ESPN reporter was blessed by the Indiana compliance office with the NCAA listening in.....Indiana is not hiding much here....

[Hoopaloop]

Is that why they point out the hiring of the son right before the rule was changed? ESPN painted A-HOPE, Indiana Elite, and their connection to IU as being fishy. You can't possibly tell me you actually read the article and didn't see that.

I don't know that any rules were broken, my guess is that anything close to infractions were technicalities in which the rules were changed after the fact, so IU will almost certainly get away with it. But it's certainly a bit hinky, and anyone who actually read the article would have to see that they're alleging that.

And the reason it's questionable with IU and not the others is because the other schools you mention didn't hire the son of the guy running Indiana Elite. They also paint Tennessee and New Mexico as being possibly shady in this due to the same connection. Do you really not see that?

Chicos, I know you defend Indiana, and I don't necessarily think that they did anything that they would be sanctioned or reprimanded for, but there's no way you can look at this article and not see that they are connecting some dodgy dots to Bloomington.

Purdue grad here (MU as well).  Think you guys are making something out of nothing.  No implication of Indiana at all that I see and I would love to see IU get tattooed.  I have yet to read anything that suggests anything IU or Crean did was illegal.  Besides, if Crean is fired IU will get Brad Stevens which is no good (though give Crean credit as he has recruited the hell out of the state).


Here is some other information (in the links) that has come out that honestly probably should have been included in the ESPN report.  ESPN loves to do this kind of stuff and they are not much on the bastions of completeness.

http://blogs.indystar.com/recruitingcentral/2011/05/27/father-of-former-indiana-elite-player-said-adams-never-talked-about-iu/

http://www.hoosier-cafe.com/2011/05/espns-motto-page-hits-check-facts.html


http://www.insidethehall.com/2011/05/26/a-deeper-look-at-espns-a-hope-investigation/

http://blogs.indystar.com/hoosiersinsider/2011/05/27/was-iu-basketball-damaged-by-espn-com-article/

I see one of these players being reprimanded for receiving extra benefits from A-Hope.  That would not surprise me.  It also has nothing to do with Indiana or their coaching staff.  Espn's follow up article today essentially admits this.  http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/31404/prized-iu-recruit-may-have-received-benefits


People should probably wait until all the facts come in before hanging Crean from the cross, especially when even ESPN's story admits Crean and Indiana did nothing wrong.  One has to wonder if Buzz Williams was the coach and we had this insane 4 decade relationsihp with one of the top AAU programs in the land if we would act differently.  I have my vote.  We would hunker down.  

Pretty sloppy job by Fish and ESPN.  At the very least, they didn't track down the other side of the story which leads me to believe they wanted to make a splash and journalism part was rather secondary.

[Marquette84]

The fact we are even trying to pacify the ridiculous arguments of CBB is ludicrous.  The Adams family housed Jurkin and Parea in their home.  They provided shelter and food for God's sakes.  Think they held any influence where either kid went to school??!!

Duke hired Chris Duhon's mother.  Kansas hired Carlos Boozer's father.  Iowa State hired Dalonte Hill to land Michael Beasley.  Hell, even Buzz Williams hired Jimmy Butler's JUCO assistant coach.

So the question becomes if you KNEW for 100% fact that Drew Adams could bring eight elite-level recruits with him--and you knew for 100% fact that there was no NCAA rule against it--why would you NOT hire him?

Yes, the rule has since changed.  Crean couldn't hire Adams and still have landed those players.  And Buzz couldn't have taken both Butler and Monarch.

But at the time, both moves were legal.

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

I once saw someone say that the scandal isn't what is illegal, it is what is legal. I'm not sure I've read any illegalities, but boy does it make a person squirm to see how dirty college basketball can be.

Crean's line about not apologizing for working hard is precious.

Remind anyone of Nixon and not apologizing for the dog, circa the 1952 presidential race?

[Pakuni]

Duke hired Chris Duhon's mother.

Not true. But she did land a job at a private company in Durham.

Kansas hired Carlos Boozer's father.

And yet he went to Duke. Ingrate.
Mario Chalmers, perhaps?

Iowa State hired Dalonte Hill to land Michael Beasley.

Kansas State, maybe?
Was Dalonte Hill the unqualified son of Beasley's high school or AAU coach? Did he have any familial relationship with Beasley? No and no. He was an assistant at a respectable mid-major program. Terrible comparison.

Hell, even Buzz Williams hired Jimmy Butler's JUCO assistant coach.

Yeah, Scott Monarch, a guy Buzz had known for 15 years before Jimmy Butler was ever on MU's radar.
Nice try, sport.

Yes, the rule has since changed.  Crean couldn't hire Adams and still have landed those players.  And Buzz couldn't have taken both Butler and Monarch.

Not true.
Jimmy Butler signed with MU in April 2008.
Monarch joined MU's staff in June 2008.
Even under today's rule, it would've been OK.
Again, nice try.

[HouWarrior]

The Adams family housed Jurkin and Parea in their home.  They provided shelter and food for God's sakes.  Think they held any influence where either kid went to school??!!

Of course, the Adams family had influence...some would say they even cast a spell over those coming to their house....I have always been suspicious, and fearful of anyone associated with the Adams Family....summed up in  this song:

cue the harpsichord
...da da dum, snap snap...


They're creepy and they're kooky,
Mysterious and spooky,
They're all together ooky,
The Adams Family.

Their house is a museum
Where people come to see 'em
They really are a scream
The Adams Family.

(Neat)
(Sweet)
(Petite)

So get a witches shawl on
A broomstick you can crawl on
We're gonna pay a call on
The Adams Family.

After his numerous home visits with the Adams Family, Tom Crean is recruiting Lurch to play C, on his IU squad, this fall--lol

[Hoopaloop]

The Adams family.  That was great Houston!!

[Marquette84]

Yeah, Scott Monarch, a guy Buzz had known for 15 years before Jimmy Butler was ever on MU's radar.

And Drew Adams was a guy IU assistant Tim Buckley had known for two years before Crean was even hired by Indiana.

Not true.
Jimmy Butler signed with MU in April 2008.
Monarch joined MU's staff in June 2008.

Actually, you're wrong.

On April 18th, Monarch was already reported as being part of Buzz's staff.

http://www.tylerpaper.com/article/20080418/SPORTS06/804180320
"TJC assistant coach Scott Monarch will be joining the Golden Eagles staff under new head coach Buzz Williams."

You made the mistake of looking at the date MU finally got around to announcing the news--it was well known long before then--even published in the Tyler, Tx. news.

And Butler himself said at the time he signed his LOI: "I know that coach Monarch's going to take care of me when I get up there."  

You can interpret that any way you want--I think the phrasing makes it obvious that Jimmy knew that Monarch was going to be in Milwaukee before he made his commitment to MU.

Even under today's rule, it would've been OK.
Again, nice try.

Wrong again.  The NCAA now prohibits hiring an AAU or JUCO coach for a non-coaching role for two years before or after a recruit from the same JUCO or AAU program.
http://recruitlook.com/blog/id_184-ncaa-prohibits-hiring-coaches-linked-to-recuirts.html

Given that Monarch was hired for a non-coaching role at MU, hiring him and recruiting Butler would now be against the new rule.

--------

I'm not saying that Buzz did anything wrong--what he did was perfectly legal under NCAA rules at the time.  So was IU's hiring Adams.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Given that Monarch was hired for a non-coaching role at MU, hiring him and recruiting Butler would now be against the new rule.

--------

I'm not saying that Buzz did anything wrong--what he did was perfectly legal under NCAA rules at the time.  So was IU's hiring Adams.

The other irony is that Buzz Williams is against this rule...the very rule that some folks here are all bent out of shape on.  LOL


http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news?slug=jn-juco072310

[m2162650]

The ESPN article butchered that all these commits were caused because of Adams as well.  They did a horrible job researching this stuff. 

1) Austin Etherington - Offered when he played for Spiece and accepted before suiting up for Indiana Elite
2) Cody Zeller - His parents do not let anyone near their kid.  The Adams had ZERO influence on this recruitment
3) Yogi Ferrell - the day that Cody Zeller committed to IU ended his recruitment.  He went as far to say so on twitter....when he announced to IU two weeks after Cody Zeller did everyone knew it was IU.
4) Perea - He was brought over by Baylor.  He never visited Baylor.  Adams had influence here...so we have 1.  One of the kids Adams is the legal guardian of.
5) Jurkin - He could have been influenced by Adams being an AHOPE kid...so we have 2.
6) Ron Patterson - He has never played for Adams.  Him and Adams do not get along.  He went as far to quit the AAU team that he joined that was coached by Adams.  He is still a strong IU commit even though he does not play for Adams anymore.  His main mentor is an IU grad though.
7) Jeremy Hollowell - He committed to IU when he played for EG10 (Eric Gordon's AAU team).  He changed teams to Indiana Elite to play with the other Indiana kids. Same mentor as Patterson is Hollowell's.
8) Colin Hartman - Committed while playing with Indiana Elite.  He is no longer playing for Indiana Elite.  He plays for EG10 instead with Devin Davis, the other Indiana commitment for the 2013 class.

The ESPN article mentioned that Indiana had commitments from Indiana Elite until 2014...this is wrong as well.  They have commitments from EG10 and Spiece for the 2013 and 2014 classes...Spiece is where Dominic James came from.

It is kind of hard not to hit one of the main 3 AAU teams while coaching in Indiana....those being Indiana Elite, EG10 and Spiece.  These kids will always have the top talent in the state.

Duke hired Chris Duhon's mother.  Kansas hired Carlos Boozer's father.  Iowa State hired Dalonte Hill to land Michael Beasley.  Hell, even Buzz Williams hired Jimmy Butler's JUCO assistant coach.

So the question becomes if you KNEW for 100% fact that Drew Adams could bring eight elite-level recruits with him--and you knew for 100% fact that there was no NCAA rule against it--why would you NOT hire him?

Yes, the rule has since changed.  Crean couldn't hire Adams and still have landed those players.  And Buzz couldn't have taken both Butler and Monarch.

But at the time, both moves were legal.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Crean's line about not apologizing for working hard is precious.

This is typical Crean. He constantly talks about how hard he works. The reality is, it doesn't take "hard work" to sign 8 players from a single AAU program. Just as it doesn't take "hard work" to have a roster with McNeal, his pal Acker (did Crean "work" to get Mo?) then Burke and his teammate Cubillan from the exact same high school. "Work" does not entail just throwing scholarships at players from the same school. Furthermore, on that same team we had Blackledge who was signed because his teammate Stemler turned us down. Nobody was offering that kid. This is the same a-hole who signed Berkowitz, having never seen him play. I pointed this out as it was happenning, by the way.

The only thing Crean works hard at is selling himself, gleeming anecdotes from "leadership books" and quoting them back to you and writing "fan letters" to B list celebrities then showing up at their place of work (Ben Sheets, Tony LaRussa, Scott Merritt) in the hopes of appearing to be important. He's a horse's ass in every sense of the word and anybody...I mean anybody...who thinks Crean is a superior coach, harder worker or, most importantly, a better person than Buzz Williams is a horrendous judge of character.
 

[wildbillsb]

Don't hold back, compadre.  Please let us know how you feel.

[ChicosBailBonds]

This is typical Crean. He constantly talks about how hard he works. The reality is, it doesn't take "hard work" to sign 8 players from a single AAU program. Just as it doesn't take "hard work" to have a roster with McNeal, his pal Acker (did Crean "work" to get Mo?) then Burke and his teammate Cubillan from the exact same high school. "Work" does not entail just throwing scholarships at players from the same school. Furthermore, on that same team we had Blackledge who was signed because his teammate Stemler turned us down. Nobody was offering that kid. This is the same a-hole who signed Berkowitz, having never seen him play. I pointed this out as it was happenning, by the way.

They've been recruiting those kids for three years...I fail to see how that is easy.  Three years effort is three years effort and it's not as if these are the only kids they've been recruiting, either.  You fail to mention when stating "single AAU" team that many of them have come and gone from that AAU team.  You also fail to mention that historically this AAU team has put kids in top programs all over the country, why on EARTH WOULDN'T YOU RECRUIT KIDS FROM A TOP AAU PROGRAM?  DUH. 

For every Berkowitz there is a Roseboro.  For every Blackledge, there is a Mbao.  Etc, Etc, etc.


We get it, you hate him and everything he does.  There is a lot not to like about him...most would agree, but to suggest their recruiting hasn't been hard is rather comical and defies what just about every recruiting expert in the country has said about them the last few years.  It's funny, so many here screaming about their recruiting when they were on probation and struggling, now they finally get the players and immediately it's cheating or lazy work.  WOW.  Nowhere do I see here that these kids, MOST FROM THE STATE OF INDIANA, might want to...wait for it....play for the flagship school in Indiana that has 5 national titles....nah, that couldn't be it.   

You guys are funny.  I knew this would happen eventually.  The piling on and piling on when they sucked would be a group circle jerk here, then when they started to land players it would be accusations of cheating, next on the 10 stages of grief will be dealing with their success.  It's going to be pretty funny to watch some of you.....let me start off the quotes for some of you "it's about time, should have happened years ago".....

[jtrash37]

They've been recruiting those kids for three years...I fail to see how that is easy.  Three years effort is three years effort and it's not as if these are the only kids they've been recruiting, either.  You fail to mention when stating "single AAU" team that many of them have come and gone from that AAU team.  You also fail to mention that historically this AAU team has put kids in top programs all over the country, why on EARTH WOULDN'T YOU RECRUIT KIDS FROM A TOP AAU PROGRAM?  DUH. 

For every Berkowitz there is a Roseboro.  For every Blackledge, there is a Mbao.  Etc, Etc, etc.


We get it, you hate him and everything he does.  We get it, you LOVE him and everything he does.There is a lot not to like about him...most would agree, but to suggest their recruiting hasn't been hard is rather comical and defies what just about every recruiting expert in the country has said about them the last few years.  It's funny, so many here screaming about their recruiting when they were on probation and struggling, now they finally get the players and immediately it's cheating or lazy work.  WOW.  Nowhere do I see here that these kids, MOST FROM THE STATE OF INDIANA, might want to...wait for it....play for the flagship school in Indiana that has 5 national titles....nah, that couldn't be it.   

You guys are funny.  I knew this would happen eventually.  The piling on and piling on when they sucked would be a group circle jerk here, then when they started to land players it would be accusations of cheating, next on the 10 stages of grief will be dealing with their success.  It's going to be pretty funny to watch some of you.....let me start off the quotes for some of you "it's about time, should have happened years ago".....

This whole defend TC/bash TC thing ruins this board.  Please, for those of us who couldn't care less about that guy...GIVE IT A REST!

[VanderBabyBlue]

This is typical Crean. He constantly talks about how hard he works. The reality is, it doesn't take "hard work" to sign 8 players from a single AAU program. Just as it doesn't take "hard work" to have a roster with McNeal, his pal Acker (did Crean "work" to get Mo?) then Burke and his teammate Cubillan from the exact same high school. "Work" does not entail just throwing scholarships at players from the same school. Furthermore, on that same team we had Blackledge who was signed because his teammate Stemler turned us down. Nobody was offering that kid. This is the same a-hole who signed Berkowitz, having never seen him play. I pointed this out as it was happenning, by the way.

The only thing Crean works hard at is selling himself, gleeming anecdotes from "leadership books" and quoting them back to you and writing "fan letters" to B list celebrities then showing up at their place of work (Ben Sheets, Tony LaRussa, Scott Merritt) in the hopes of appearing to be important. He's a horse's ass in every sense of the word and anybody...I mean anybody...who thinks Crean is a superior coach, harder worker or, most importantly, a better person than Buzz Williams is a horrendous judge of character.
 

Isn't it crazy that this isn't obvious to some people?  He's been a total fraud for so many years, yet he maintains his supporters.  There's a fool born every minute...

[TedBaxter]

The only thing Crean works hard at is selling himself, gleeming anecdotes from "leadership books" and quoting them back to you and writing "fan letters" to B list celebrities then showing up at their place of work (Ben Sheets, Tony LaRussa, Scott Merritt) in the hopes of appearing to be important.

I'm not going to address PRN's other comments, but I had to laugh at this one because it is has some relevance.  I seriously shake my head and just chuckle to myself when I read some of Crean's twitter messages.  Tries to read all these books when he only has to watch a Monty Python movie to find the meaning of life.

[🏀]

Chicos, ease up on the hand wringing and let some things go.

[Marquette84]

This is typical Crean. He constantly talks about how hard he works. The reality is, it doesn't take "hard work" to sign 8 players from a single AAU program. Just as it doesn't take "hard work" to have a roster with McNeal, his pal Acker (did Crean "work" to get Mo?) then Burke and his teammate Cubillan from the exact same high school. "Work" does not entail just throwing scholarships at players from the same school. Furthermore, on that same team we had Blackledge who was signed because his teammate Stemler turned us down. Nobody was offering that kid. This is the same a-hole who signed Berkowitz, having never seen him play. I pointed this out as it was happenning, by the way.

The only thing Crean works hard at is selling himself, gleeming anecdotes from "leadership books" and quoting them back to you and writing "fan letters" to B list celebrities then showing up at their place of work (Ben Sheets, Tony LaRussa, Scott Merritt) in the hopes of appearing to be important. He's a horse's ass in every sense of the word and anybody...I mean anybody...who thinks Crean is a superior coach, harder worker or, most importantly, a better person than Buzz Williams is a horrendous judge of character

Based on your thinking--would you agree that Buzz really didn't do any work to recruit Jimmy Butler?  After all, he's from the same exact JUCO as Fulce.  Couldn't have put in any work there, right?

And is is any worse of a mistake to offer Mbao or Roseboro compared to Blackledge or Berkowitz?  What about McMorrow--nobody was offering that kid.  Mistake or not?

If you think its so easy to lock up elite players in your home state, why hasn't Buzz secured early verbals from Tokoto, Dekker, Koenig, or Lomboda?

And before Ners jumps in with his typical "You're being mean to Buzz. . . ." drivel, let me point out that I'm merely illustrating the blatant double standard of PRN.

He hates Crean for his leadership quotes, but probably love's Buzz's "life lessons." He defines Crean's recruiting based on his misses--ignoring that Buzz has similar strikeouts.  He claims Crean doesn't deserve credit for recruiting players from the same team--ignoring that one of Buzz's top recruits (Butler) came via an identical circumstance. 

BTW, guess who else is known for writing "fan letters?" 

I don't know whether Crean is a superior coach, harder worker or better person than Buzz. But there simply isn't the evidence to support the claims of huge differences that others seem to insist. 

[NersEllenson]

84 - Highly unlikely Buzz Williams will be recruiting the likes of a Blackledge, Berkowitz, Hazel, etc - 6 to 7 years into his tenure at Marquette with a Final Four under his belt. Cream should have had a lot more recruitig clout after his Final Four and good regular season success - to where he shouldn't have had to recruit off the scrap heap. Cream never was able to assemble a roster of more than 5 or 6 high major players.  U do tend to make a lot of apples to oranges arguments to support your bias, however.

No doubt though that Buzz missed on Roseboro, Mbao. Misses certainly happen in recruitig butthankfully Buzz has been ably replace such misses with Jae Crowder, DJO, and maybe TJ Taylor turns out to e a great replacement for Reggie Smith. Time will tell.

[cheebs09]

I agree with some of what you said MU84, but one I strongly disagree with is grouping McMorrow in with others as one of Buzz's misses. McMorrow not being at Marquette wasn't a matter of him not being skilled enough (we will never know), it was just bad luck and health issues. I realize he is playing now, but we don't know what risks he is taking and how much changed in that year he sat out. He seemed like a very skilled big guy and I thought he'd be very good for us (his stats at Tenn Tech don't mean a whole lot to me because he missed a full year and we don't know how much his illness may be holding him back).

[Marquette84]

I agree with some of what you said MU84, but one I strongly disagree with is grouping McMorrow in with others as one of Buzz's misses. McMorrow not being at Marquette wasn't a matter of him not being skilled enough (we will never know), it was just bad luck and health issues. I realize he is playing now, but we don't know what risks he is taking and how much changed in that year he sat out. He seemed like a very skilled big guy and I thought he'd be very good for us (his stats at Tenn Tech don't mean a whole lot to me because he missed a full year and we don't know how much his illness may be holding him back).

I don't think a player loses his talent if he's out for a year with injury.  Cadougan didn't.  Otule didn't.  Factor in the fact that McMorrow wasn't pursued by major programs.  Nobody mines the Canadian leagues better than Mark Few, and if Gonzaga wasn't interested in McMorrow I have to think that is a reflection of McMorrow's true talent level.

84 - Highly unlikely Buzz Williams will be recruiting the likes of a Blackledge, Berkowitz, Hazel, etc - 6 to 7 years into his tenure at Marquette with a Final Four under his belt. Cream should have had a lot more recruitig clout after his Final Four and good regular season success - to where he shouldn't have had to recruit off the scrap heap. Cream never was able to assemble a roster of more than 5 or 6 high major players.  U do tend to make a lot of apples to oranges arguments to support your bias, however.

Well, I hope Buzz brings us to a Final four.  And I didn't make a single apples-to-organges comparison.  Each comparison was to a nearly identical situation.

For example, Blackledge and Berkowitz were the 13th players on the depth chart in their respective seasons.  In Buzz's first recruiting class, McMorrow filled the last scholarship.  In his second, Mbao was the last guy recruited.  This year, we still have two scholarships to fill, so an empty seat is in that role.  Apples to apples.

I disagree with your point about Crean not being able to build a roster of more than 5-6 high-major players.  In 2006, 2007 and 2008, Crean actually played deeper into his bench than Buzz did this year.  Buzz had 7 players with more than 10 mpg this year.   Crean had 9 in 2006, 8 in 2007, and 9 in 2008. 

While you will probably mis-interpret this as some knock on Buzz, I think the difference is that Crean intentionally built a team with stars and role players, where Buzz is trying to meet a minimum talent requirement for all positions and then play the best of a bunch of  interchangeable pieces.  Two different strategies--not a sign of better recruiting.

In the end, it doesn't make any meaningful difference on the court.  Jamail Jones and Trend Blackledge had nearly identical stats their first seasons.  http://bit.ly/mtGjEn   

The only real conclusion you can make is that Buzz's scrubs were rated higher than Crean's. 

No doubt though that Buzz missed on Roseboro, Mbao. Misses certainly happen in recruitig butthankfully Buzz has been ably replace such misses with Jae Crowder, DJO, and maybe TJ Taylor turns out to e a great replacement for Reggie Smith. Time will tell.

Just Crean was able to replace his misses with guys like Trevor Mbakwe and Tyshawn Taylor.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I agree with some of what you said MU84, but one I strongly disagree with is grouping McMorrow in with others as one of Buzz's misses. McMorrow not being at Marquette wasn't a matter of him not being skilled enough (we will never know), it was just bad luck and health issues. I realize he is playing now, but we don't know what risks he is taking and how much changed in that year he sat out. He seemed like a very skilled big guy and I thought he'd be very good for us (his stats at Tenn Tech don't mean a whole lot to me because he missed a full year and we don't know how much his illness may be holding him back).

Maybe, but it wasn't like any of the high majors were beating down his door when he was healthy either. ESPN had him rated as a 40 because he was so off the radar they couldn't evaluate him.  http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/recruiting/player/_/id/66348/liam-mcmorrow


 He was the description of a project....the same description that some people here rag constantly on depending on who the coach was.  Apparently a project is a complete joke if one coach did it but it was merely a respected gamble if another does it.  Go figure.  Certainly he could have been a diamond in the rough, but those are rare.  It's a shame about his illness.  Obviously the Tennessee Tech doctors felt better about his prognosis than ours....or perhaps Buzz and staff realized he probably wasn't up to this level once it was learned his illness could be controlled with medication.  Nevertheless, hope he does well in life.

[NersEllenson]

Well, I hope Buzz brings us to a Final four.  And I didn't make a single apples-to-organges comparison.  Each comparison was to a nearly identical situation.

For example, Blackledge and Berkowitz were the 13th players on the depth chart in their respective seasons.  In Buzz's first recruiting class, McMorrow filled the last scholarship.  In his second, Mbao was the last guy recruited.  This year, we still have two scholarships to fill, so an empty seat is in that role.  Apples to apples.

I disagree with your point about Crean not being able to build a roster of more than 5-6 high-major players.  In 2006, 2007 and 2008, Crean actually played deeper into his bench than Buzz did this year.  Buzz had 7 players with more than 10 mpg this year.   Crean had 9 in 2006, 8 in 2007, and 9 in 2008. 

While you will probably mis-interpret this as some knock on Buzz, I think the difference is that Crean intentionally built a team with stars and role players, where Buzz is trying to meet a minimum talent requirement for all positions and then play the best of a bunch of  interchangeable pieces.  Two different strategies--not a sign of better recruiting.

In the end, it doesn't make any meaningful difference on the court.  Jamail Jones and Trend Blackledge had nearly identical stats their first seasons.  http://bit.ly/mtGjEn   

The only real conclusion you can make is that Buzz's scrubs were rated higher than Crean's. 

Just Crean was able to replace his misses with guys like Trevor Mbakwe and Tyshawn Taylor.

84 - How many times do you need to be explained to that to compare what a coach is doing in his 7th year at the helm of a program, to a coach in is 1st or 2nd year at the helm - ir pretty much an apples to oranges comparison.  Think Buzz has any more recruiting credibility after the Sweet 16 and his players trumpeting how good of cooach he is? 

I too hope Buzz takes us to a Final Four and think he will.  I've said before and I'll say again I think Crean did a very good job during his time at MU.  Whether or not it was Crean's strategy to recruit role players and sign Top 100 talent only every 3rd to 4th class is debatable at best.  He doesn't seem to be following that strategy at Indiana now, does he?  Perhaps a change in philosophy??  Dobutful - but the reality was he had a v ery difficult time selling kids on MU if there wasn't clear cut, immediate playing time available...

[ChicosBailBonds]

84 - How many times do you need to be explained to that to compare what a coach is doing in his 7th year at the helm of a program, to a coach in is 1st or 2nd year at the helm - ir pretty much an apples to oranges comparison.  Think Buzz has any more recruiting credibility after the Sweet 16 and his players trumpeting how good of cooach he is? 

I too hope Buzz takes us to a Final Four and think he will.  I've said before and I'll say again I think Crean did a very good job during his time at MU.  Whether or not it was Crean's strategy to recruit role players and sign Top 100 talent only every 3rd to 4th class is debatable at best.  He doesn't seem to be following that strategy at Indiana now, does he?  Perhaps a change in philosophy??  Dobutful - but the reality was he had a v ery difficult time selling kids on MU if there wasn't clear cut, immediate playing time available...

And how many times do you need it explained to you that taking over a team on 3 straight NCAA appearances and having a roster of 3 NBA players on it in your first year is a LOT different than taking over a losing team that couldn't even go to the NIT?  7th year or not, the first couple of years were complete rebuilding years so every time you trumpet out that 7th year nonsense you know exactly what crap you are pulling.

[Marquette84]

84 - How many times do you need to be explained to that to compare what a coach is doing in his 7th year at the helm of a program, to a coach in is 1st or 2nd year at the helm - ir pretty much an apples to oranges comparison.  Think Buzz has any more recruiting credibility after the Sweet 16 and his players trumpeting how good of cooach he is? 

Your argument is without merit.

First, Raymonds, O'Neill, and Crean all recruited some great players in their very first season as head coach.  The notion that a new coach gets a pass on his recruiting for the first four years of his career is complete bunk.

Second, you forgot that Buzz actually had 18 years of coaching experience before he got to Marquette (when Crean got the job at MU, it was his 12 year in coaching).

Recruiting Berkowitz came during Crean's 17th year in the business, Blackledge in his 21st.
Recruiting McMorrow came during Buzz's 18th year in the business, Mbao in his 19th.

They both missed on players at roughly the same point in their careers.

Apples to apples.

I too hope Buzz takes us to a Final Four and think he will.  I've said before and I'll say again I think Crean did a very good job during his time at MU.  Whether or not it was Crean's strategy to recruit role players and sign Top 100 talent only every 3rd to 4th class is debatable at best.

Of course its debatable!  Because you're so wrong!

We landed top 100 talent in 2000 (Merrit), 2001 (Diener & R Jackson), 2002 (Novak), 2003 (Mason), 2005 (James, Matthews, McNeal), 2006 (Hayward), 2007 (Mbakwe), 2008 (Taylor, N. Williams), and lined up for 2009 (E. Williams). 

So I'm really not sure where you got the idea that it was Crean's strategy to sign top 100 talent only every 3rd to 4th class.

  He doesn't seem to be following that strategy at Indiana now, does he?  Perhaps a change in philosophy??  Dobutful - but the reality was he had a v ery difficult time selling kids on MU if there wasn't clear cut, immediate playing time available...

As I said Buzz's advantage seems to be recruiting better quality scrubs.  Good for him.  Kind of blunts the impact of losing a top 100 player like Erik Williams if he's a deep bench player.

Jamail Jones--despite his top 100 rank--didn't get any more minutes than Blackledge.  We'll see if he gets more in the future. 

Meanwhile, Crean seemed to go deeper into his bench--8 or 9 guys got more than 10 mpg in 2006-2008 compared to only 7 in 2010 and 2011   Maybe we could agree that on paper, Buzz recruits more talent, but Crean recruited more useable players.

FInally, if Buzz doesn't fill those last two scholarships, then even Niv Berkowitz' meager performance will blow away the stats put up by that empty seat.

[NersEllenson]

Your argument is without merit.

First, Raymonds, O'Neill, and Crean all recruited some great players in their very first season as head coach.  The notion that a new coach gets a pass on his recruiting for the first four years of his career is complete bunk.

Second, you forgot that Buzz actually had 18 years of coaching experience before he got to Marquette (when Crean got the job at MU, it was his 12 year in coaching).

Recruiting Berkowitz came during Crean's 17th year in the business, Blackledge in his 21st.
Recruiting McMorrow came during Buzz's 18th year in the business, Mbao in his 19th.

They both missed on players at roughly the same point in their careers.

Apples to apples.

Of course its debatable!  Because you're so wrong!

We landed top 100 talent in 2000 (Merrit), 2001 (Diener & R Jackson), 2002 (Novak), 2003 (Mason), 2005 (James, Matthews, McNeal), 2006 (Hayward), 2007 (Mbakwe), 2008 (Taylor, N. Williams), and lined up for 2009 (E. Williams). 

So I'm really not sure where you got the idea that it was Crean's strategy to sign top 100 talent only every 3rd to 4th class.

As I said Buzz's advantage seems to be recruiting better quality scrubs.  Good for him.  Kind of blunts the impact of losing a top 100 player like Erik Williams if he's a deep bench player.

Jamail Jones--despite his top 100 rank--didn't get any more minutes than Blackledge.  We'll see if he gets more in the future. 

Meanwhile, Crean seemed to go deeper into his bench--8 or 9 guys got more than 10 mpg in 2006-2008 compared to only 7 in 2010 and 2011   Maybe we could agree that on paper, Buzz recruits more talent, but Crean recruited more useable players.

FInally, if Buzz doesn't fill those last two scholarships, then even Niv Berkowitz' meager performance will blow away the stats put up by that empty seat.

Pure Comedy!!  It is absolutely hilarious how far you go to defend your guy, TC.  I think Butler was in Buzz's first recruiting class...and then DJO, Buycks, Cadougan, Maymon, Erik Williams (though you can credit him to Crean if you like).

I do love how your are resorting to counting years as managers, video coordinators, assistant coaches, etc..as part of years coaching.  Give Buzz 6 years of Head Coaching experience like your guy TC, and I highly doube we'll be pulling in retreads like Niv Berkowitz and Trend Blackledge

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Based on your thinking--would you agree that Buzz really didn't do any work to recruit Jimmy Butler?  After all, he's from the same exact JUCO as Fulce.  Couldn't have put in any work there, right?

Yes, I completely agree. There was no "hard work" involved in signing Butler. I think Buzz has even talked about how lucky that was. He sure as hell hasn't talked about the "hard work" he put in there.

And I don't "hate Crean for his leadership quotes." I hate him because he's a phony douche bag. I don't know anything about Buzz's "life lessons," probably because he doesn't give them to anybody other than the kids on the team.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Let me make one more point about Crean and "hard work." I honestly believe that he's such a social climbing phony assh*ole that he married his wife strictly because her father was a well known coach, her brother Jim was a promising quarterback and he thought it would further his career. I have always believed that. That's how much I think of him.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Pure Comedy!!  It is absolutely hilarious how far you go to defend your guy, TC.  I think Butler was in Buzz's first recruiting class...and then DJO, Buycks, Cadougan, Maymon, Erik Williams (though you can credit him to Crean if you like).

I do love how your are resorting to counting years as managers, video coordinators, assistant coaches, etc..as part of years coaching.  Give Buzz 6 years of Head Coaching experience like your guy TC, and I highly doube we'll be pulling in retreads like Niv Berkowitz and Trend Blackledge

Sure we will.  Programs get these kinds of recruits all the time, even blue blood programs.  UCLA has had a few of these types the last few years and so have a number of other programs.  When Buzz gets to his 6th year, whether it's here at MU or somewhere else, he'll land some great players and a few retreads.  Just how it works.  With kids wanting playing time and such, it's difficult to land top 10 classes every year and that means taking a few fliers on a kid.  Nothing wrong with that, I just wish people here would not be such hypocrites in their analysis of it.  The situations happen at many schools to many coaches and will happen at MU in the same vein, to suggest otherwise is merely strapping on love for one coach and that's all it is.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Let me make one more point about Crean and "hard work." I honestly believe that he's such a social climbing phony assh*ole that he married his wife strictly because her father was a well known coach, her brother Jim was a promising quarterback and he thought it would further his career. I have always believed that. That's how much I think of him.

That's very interesting.  If you believe something that nuts, there is no counter to it.  You believe what you believe.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Yes, I completely agree. There was no "hard work" involved in signing Butler. I think Buzz has even talked about how lucky that was. He sure as hell hasn't talked about the "hard work" he put in there.

And I don't "hate Crean for his leadership quotes." I hate him because he's a phony douche bag. I don't know anything about Buzz's "life lessons," probably because he doesn't give them to anybody other than the kids on the team.

You need to get out on the internets more, Buzz has no problem pontificating on life's lessons to alumni and students at his speeches. Youtube awaits you. Is he out there twittering or whatever....nope...but that doesn't mean he's keeping his life lessons to just bball players.  Besides, he likes to make his big splashes with ice cream just on camera during the NBA playoffs.   

[4everwarriors]

Let me make one more point about Crean and "hard work." I honestly believe that he's such a social climbing phony assh*ole that he married his wife strictly because her father was a well known coach, her brother Jim was a promising quarterback and he thought it would further his career. I have always believed that. That's how much I think of him.

Eloquent man, poetry in motion. Couldn't say it any better myself.

[Marquette84]

Pure Comedy!!  It is absolutely hilarious how far you go to defend your guy, TC.  I think Butler was in Buzz's first recruiting class...and then DJO, Buycks, Cadougan, Maymon, Erik Williams (though you can credit him to Crean if you like).

And Butler proves that either:

a) Buzz knew enough about recruiting that he can own up to his misses (Mbao, Roseboro, McMorrow) and your argument about him being too inexperienced to know the difference is complete bunk.

Or
 
b) Buzz merely got lucky with Butler because he doesn't have enough experience to make an intelligent recruiting evaluation.

Or

c)  You can maintain your double standard, where Butler is a clear sign of Buzz's superior recruiting talent, but McMorrow, Mbao and Roseboro don't count because Buzz isn't experienced enough to know a good recruit from a lousy one.

I'm going with choice a).  I fully expect coaches to make recruiting mistakes.  Its not a function of "learning on the job"--these guys have been around college programs long enough to know the difference between players who can help and those who cant.

And every so often, they'll make a mistake--take a chance with the 13th scholarship that doesn't work out. 

I do love how your are resorting to counting years as managers, video coordinators, assistant coaches, etc..as part of years coaching. 

And I love how you pretend that Buzz learned so little about recruiting during his time as an assistant at Colorado State, Texas A&M, head coach at UNO and assistant at MU that he really can't be faulted for not knowing the difference between, say, Brett Roseboro and John Wall.

But give him 7 years . . . THEN, by gum, he'll know the difference!

Give Buzz 6 years of Head Coaching experience like your guy TC, and I highly doube we'll be pulling in retreads like Niv Berkowitz and Trend Blackledge

So what is your excuse that explains how Crean got more of retread Blackledge in 2007 than Buzz got out of top 100 Jamail Jones last year?

Oh, sorry.  Buzz isn't experienced enough yet to be expected to get more out of Jones.  I'll have give him six years before I expect better than Blackldege-like performance out of a top 100 player.

[NersEllenson]

About to be headed for the ignore button 84 but one last reply:  I never said Buzz was "inexperienced" as a recruiter - I said that Buzz didn't have nearly the recruiting equity or clout that a PROVEN head coach like Tom Crean would have.  Buzz was a virtual unknown with a 14-17 record at UNO to tout and take out with him on the recruiting trail.  He was selling MU and Crean for Crean...but then when he became the head guy...he had to sell himself and his limited track record.

It is absolutely amazing how you contort and twist things to fit your warped agenda.  All along my point has been give Buzz 6 years at the helm of MU and I doubt you will see retread recruits like Berkowitz, Blackledge, Roseboro, Mbao.

The fact Jamail Jones can't get on the floor is a testament to the talent Buzz has gotten to MU in just 3 short years.  Never would a Top 100 kid ride the pine under Crean, because there wasn't much competition on the roster for the likes of a Hayward, James, McNeal or Matthews to compete with...As for Blackledge's numbers - pretty sure he put up his best numbers as a Senior at Marquette under Buzz - yet you want to compare an 18-year old Freshman to a 20-21 year old Junior JUCO transfer.  Okay.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Maybe, but it wasn't like any of the high majors were beating down his door when he was healthy either. ESPN had him rated as a 40 because he was so off the radar they couldn't evaluate him.  http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/recruiting/player/_/id/66348/liam-mcmorrow


 He was the description of a project....the same description that some people here rag constantly on depending on who the coach was.  Apparently a project is a complete joke if one coach did it but it was merely a respected gamble if another does it.  Go figure.  Certainly he could have been a diamond in the rough, but those are rare.  It's a shame about his illness.  Obviously the Tennessee Tech doctors felt better about his prognosis than ours....or perhaps Buzz and staff realized he probably wasn't up to this level once it was learned his illness could be controlled with medication.  Nevertheless, hope he does well in life.

Once you have medical situation like Liam's, where you are moved from athletic scholarship to a non-playing scholarship, and then are subsequently cleared to come back to play, you can't play at your original school.

[Marquette84]

About to be headed for the ignore button 84 but one last reply:  I never said Buzz was "inexperienced" as a recruiter - I said that Buzz didn't have nearly the recruiting equity or clout that a PROVEN head coach like Tom Crean would have.  Buzz was a virtual unknown with a 14-17 record at UNO to tout and take out with him on the recruiting trail.  He was selling MU and Crean for Crean...but then when he became the head guy...he had to sell himself and his limited track record.

Your argument is BS.  If Buzz can recognize the talent of (and sign) a guy like DJO or Buycks or Butler, then his recruiting misses can't be explained by "not enough requiting equity" or "lacked clout." 

It is absolutely amazing how you contort and twist things to fit your warped agenda.  All along my point has been give Buzz 6 years at the helm of MU and I doubt you will see retread recruits like Berkowitz, Blackledge, Roseboro, Mbao.

I contort or twist nothing.  You do, and then get mad when I call you on it.

I'm not the one who invented bogus factors like "clout" and "recruiting equity" to explain away  recruiting misses.

Its not "twisting" or "contorting" anything to point out that in the same season, Buzz landed DJO and Buycks, but also Mbao and Roseboro.  Same clout.  Same equity.  Same coach.  Same season. 

The fact Jamail Jones can't get on the floor is a testament to the talent Buzz has gotten to MU in just 3 short years. 

So Jones can't get on the floor, and its a testament to his talent? 

Never would a Top 100 kid ride the pine under Crean, because there wasn't much competition on the roster for the likes of a Hayward, James, McNeal or Matthews to compete with...

Isn't that a testament to the quality of Hayward, James, McNeal and Matthews?   

As for Blackledge's numbers - pretty sure he put up his best numbers as a Senior at Marquette under Buzz -

He was a senior at Marquette in 2008 under Crean. 

yet you want to compare an 18-year old Freshman to a 20-21 year old Junior JUCO transfer.  Okay.

In the past you've argued vehemently that Buzz's JUCOs were no better than freshman because they lacked D1 experience.  In fact, you got very mad when I tried to claim that 12th place wasn't a reasonable prediction--and you specifically cited the lack of D1 experience from our JUCOs.   

Now you're saying its unfair to compare a JUCO to a freshman? 

[ChicosBailBonds]

ouch...

[Nukem2]

I think 84 needs to get a life.  He seems to to have far too much time for endless responses.....

[Marquette84]

I think 84 needs to get a life.  He seems to to have far too much time for endless responses.....

My "endless" post was 201 words--which was a reply to a 229 word post from Ners.