TC's recruiting

[Pakuni]

He kept the program from going to Loyola mode.  He did not put us back on the map, not nationally anyway. A Final Four puts you back on the map.  Big East invite puts you on the map.  Leaving after just five years, complaining about your contract at every turn, getting drunk nightly at public bars while cheating on your wife for all to see....doesn't get you on the map....not the right one anyway.

Hmmm .... so by these standards, Ben Howland didn't put Pitt basketball back "on the map" because he failed to get the team into a Final Four.
Billy Gillespie didn't put A&M basketball back on the mao because he didn't get them to a Final Four.
Obviously you would agree that Lavin hasn't put St. John's back on the map. Or Kevin Stallings at Vandy. Pete Gillen didn't put Xavier on the map.
It's almost as if you're narrowly tailoring your definition of "on the map" to suit an agenda.

As for all the rest, who cares? You vociferously defended a former coach who frequently made a drunken ass of himself, yet you bash O'Neill for some of the same behaviors?

Fact is, O'Neill did indeed put Marquette back on the map, taking over a program heading to oblivion and building it into one that would make the NCAA tournament four times in five years, gain entry to a good conference and lay the foundation of much of what's good about the program today.
That doesn't have to detract from what Crean accomplished, but O'Neill is the guy who saved MU basketball, not Crean.

[Jay Bee]

BTW, I'm dumb on recruiting.  Are some of these 5-stars really still uncommitted?

According to Chicos (when convenient), there are no 2012 kids that are committed, because they have not yet 'signed on the dotted line'.

[ChicosBailBonds]

well said Chico he couldn't hack it at MU so he took an easier route. I agree as he struggled at MU more often then not recruiting to have back to back good years.

Probably.  Though I thought we had a number of good back to back years...3 straight NCAAs when he left and walk in the park 4th straight left for his predecessor.  That seems like pretty good back to back years...or are you talking about recruiting?  Tough to tell with you.  You need to be clearer.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Hmmm .... so by these standards, Ben Howland didn't put Pitt basketball back "on the map" because he failed to get the team into a Final Four.
Billy Gillespie didn't put A&M basketball back on the mao because he didn't get them to a Final Four.
Obviously you would agree that Lavin hasn't put St. John's back on the map. Or Kevin Stallings at Vandy. Pete Gillen didn't put Xavier on the map.
It's almost as if you're narrowly tailoring your definition of "on the map" to suit an agenda.

As for all the rest, who cares? You vociferously defended a former coach who frequently made a drunken ass of himself, yet you bash O'Neill for some of the same behaviors?

Fact is, O'Neill did indeed put Marquette back on the map, taking over a program heading to oblivion and building it into one that would make the NCAA tournament four times in five years, gain entry to a good conference and lay the foundation of much of what's good about the program today.
That doesn't have to detract from what Crean accomplished, but O'Neill is the guy who saved MU basketball, not Crean.

A lot of ways to put a team on the map....consistently winning will do it as well, not just a Final Four.  George Mason was put on the map because of a Final Four.  VCU was put on a map because of a Final Four.  Other schools are on the map for consistently being good.  Your example is rather absurd.

I don't know, I guess I don't think a 5 year run that included the 2nd worst record for MU in almost 50 years among his 5 years, as back on the map.  He kept us from Loyolahood, which I am forever grateful.  He got us to a Sweet 16 one year...that was awesome.  Nationally did that get us back "on the map" or was it really more of a regional play?  I think you know the answer in your head and heart if you look hard enough.  If we were back on the map as you state, we sure got off the map in a hurry...partly because of how he departed.

Ben Howland winning two straight Big East titles and two straight Sweet 16's helped Pitt get there, but I'd argue Jamie Dixon has done more to put them back on the map than Howland has.  Howland also did his work in the Big East, not the MCC where we got no pub at all...part of being PUT BACK ON THE MAP means people have to notice.

Lavin...doing it in the media capital of the world with ESPN in your back yard and in the Big East...that's a little different than doing it in Milwaukee in the MCC.  Sorry, that's just reality.  Quite frankly, if Lavin was at another school like, say, Washington State or Oregon State, I'd argue absolutely he hasn't put them on the map.  St. John's is the beneficiary of who they are, where they play and reside and the help they get from the NY media.  Sorry, that's just reality.  Apples to oranges.  You also don't see Lavin complaining about his contract every 20 minutes and leaving 5 minutes after being bounced from the tournament.

Did you ever think that KO's work was slightly undone by how fast he wanted to get out of here?  By putting a Tennessee sweatshirt on before he even left MU?  "Hey, look what I did to put you guys on the map and now I'm leaving 10 seconds later because I don't like my contract, etc, etc...I'm outta here"

Vanderbilt...lol.  Are they really "on the map" nationally?  Most people couldn't tell you where Vanderbilt is if you spotted them a map of Tennessee and told them the city ended in "ville"

Pete Gillen at Xavier....that's an interesting analogy.  To this day they are still worried about people calling them EGGSAVIOR...I guess being put on the map couldn't get America to understand what to call them.  Sorry, don't buy that they were put on the map.  They were in the MCC when he was there.  They had a nice program that went to the NCAAs often but didn't do a ton...no deep run.  Gonzaga, they made some deep runs which truly put them on the map with Mark Few and Monson.  Xavier was a nice little program that one a game in the tournament here and there under Gillen, maybe one Sweet 16 but nothing crazy.  EGGSAVIER.

[ChicosBailBonds]

According to Chicos (when convenient), there are no 2012 kids that are committed, because they have not yet 'signed on the dotted line'.

No one is committed until you sign the line which is dotted.

LeDaryl Billingsley Marquette University
Motreale Clark Marquette University
Vander Blue University of Wisconsin
Derrick Williams University of Arizona

Etc, etc.

The list must be 100 strong in the last decade....players back out of commitments because coaches leave, because schools are on probation, because they change their mind.  I'm sorry, but that means someone is NOT committed until they sign.  This isn't hard nor a convenient answer...it's reality.

[shoothoops]

I'm newer here...but in this thread, "Pakuni' gets it and this Chicos person has no idea what he is talking about.  Some of the comments/evaluations about other programs are laughable. 

As for the topic of this thread...BJ Young is a talented player that will stay at Arkansas.  Surprised so many have thrown out his name on the Marquette boards as he attended three different high schools in his home town, has had multiple discipline and academic challenges.  Although his friendship with Brad Beal, has helped serve him well. 

[muball]

recruiting Chico he was overated on being consistant.  Couldnt compete with the big dogs and wasnt up to the challenge of the BEast so he took and easier leaque and hotter area. Just saying his I am tough thing is quite phony and people see thru it. 

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Are we really interested in a BJ on the heels of these "shocking" revelations about sexual harrassment?

[ChicosBailBonds]

I'm not alone....."on the map"...for the second time.  Al obviously put us on there nationally the first time.


http://espn.go.com/page2/s/caple/030401.html

http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/memories_diener_090403.html

http://articles.courant.com/2002-02-10/features/0202102271_1_east-carolina-golden-eagles-tom-crean/2

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-26985319.html

http://www.620wtmj.com/sports/45314652.html

http://www.sportsbybrooks.com/buzz-williams-is-kinda-sensitive-about-his-team-22133

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/118806-crean-and-crimson-golden-for-eagles

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/writers/luke_winn/01/18/inside.bkc/index.html

http://articles.courant.com/2002-02-10/features/0202102271_1_east-carolina-golden-eagles-tom-crean

http://staff.onmilwaukee.com/myOMC/authors/stevehaywood/haywood040408.html

Etc

[Jay Bee]

No one is committed until you sign the line which is dotted.

LeDaryl Billingsley Marquette University
Motreale Clark Marquette University
Vander Blue University of Wisconsin
Derrick Williams University of Arizona

Etc, etc.

The list must be 100 strong in the last decade....players back out of commitments because coaches leave, because schools are on probation, because they change their mind.  I'm sorry, but that means someone is NOT committed until they sign. This isn't hard nor a convenient answer...it's reality.

That is complete and utter nonsense, bud.  The list is over "100 strong" of kids that have signed, yet back out of their commitments.  So how does signing mean they have 'CHOSEN' a school but saying they have CHOSEN a school does not? 

[Stuckin1977]

That is complete and utter nonsense, bud.  The list is over "100 strong" of kids that have signed, yet back out of their commitments.  So how does signing mean they have 'CHOSEN' a school but saying they have CHOSEN a school does not? 

But if you sign and back out it's because you have a legit reason, like a coach leaving the school.  Verbal commitments are not verbal contracts, just placeholders.

[willie warrior]

Chico's is accurate that O'Neil put the program back to respectability, and Crean continued doing that.

[jmayer1]

O'Neil made the program relevant again.  DWade put MU back on the map. Without Wade, MU's former coach very well could never have made the tournament here and might be coaching at some mid-major school after missing the big dance his first 6 years at MU. Marquette had some other very good players to go with Wade (Henry, Diener, Jackson, Novak) but we saw the 2 years before and after Wade that those guys couldn't hack it without him.

[Jay Bee]

But if you sign and back out it's because you have a legit reason, like a coach leaving the school.  Verbal commitments are not verbal contracts, just placeholders.

1) No - a coach leaving a school is not a 'legit reason' per the NLI.  That is completely false.  Student-athletes commit to INSTITUTIONS contractually.

2) The word that has been disputed is CHOSEN.  Chicos said he doesn't believe has CHOSEN a school until he signs.  The fact of the matter is a lot of kids NEVER sign with the school they enroll at. 

3) "Verbal commitments are not verbal contracts" - huh?  Yeah, there is nothing binding, but again, many bball players are at schools without a binding contract.

[muwarrior69]

He kept the program from going to Loyola mode.  He did not put us back on the map, not nationally anyway. A Final Four puts you back on the map.  Big East invite puts you on the map.  Leaving after just five years, complaining about your contract at every turn, getting drunk nightly at public bars while cheating on your wife for all to see....doesn't get you on the map....not the right one anyway.

When Marquette becomes a destination job not a stepping stone job for a coach then will really be on the map!

[willie warrior]

Define "regularly"?  Is that like "vast majority"?

I don't like what he did with Newbill...neither did HBO Sports with Bryant Gumbel.  It made squirm (and many others).  It's not illegal, but it makes me squirm.

I don't like recruiting kids that have already verbally committed....it makes me squirm.  It's not illegal, but it makes me squirm.

I don't like it when a kid is on scholarship at another program and encouraged to transfer to MU, even if it's through back channels.  Sorry, that makes me squirm.  Let the kid reach out to us

Etc, etc.  Others have been discussed here already.

You can certainly be squirmed all you want about what's going on at IU, or Auburn in football, or Ohio State or whatever.  It's a free country.  Just as I have every right to feel squirmy about some of the stuff that has been discussed. 

Maybe we should hire an asst video coordinator from an AAU program because word is that they are like bees to honey in terms of recruiting.  You can't believe the number of high profile kids that want to play at a school because of the assistant video coordinator.  It's all the rage, everyone is getting ready to do it. 

Chicos--how dare you have ethics when it comes to recruiting. You will never get a job on Calimari's staff.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Unfortunately, Chicos "assistant video coordinator" references is dumbing down the reality of the situation.

[NersEllenson]

O'Neil made the program relevant again.  DWade put MU back on the map. Without Wade, MU's former coach very well could never have made the tournament here and might be coaching at some mid-major school after missing the big dance his first 6 years at MU. Marquette had some other very good players to go with Wade (Henry, Diener, Jackson, Novak) but we saw the 2 years before and after Wade that those guys couldn't hack it without him.

Bingo.  Yet Tom Crean did do a good job overall at Marquette.  The program was in far worse shape after Dukiet, than it was Deane (tho similarily comparable) as both Dukiet and Deane were disasters.  D-Wade was a God-send, and without him it is unlikely we even win an NCAA tournament game in Tom Crean's first 8 years at MU - he did win 1 game his 9th year against Kentucky in the first round..

[willie warrior]

O'Neil made the program relevant again.  DWade put MU back on the map. Without Wade, MU's former coach very well could never have made the tournament here and might be coaching at some mid-major school after missing the big dance his first 6 years at MU. Marquette had some other very good players to go with Wade (Henry, Diener, Jackson, Novak) but we saw the 2 years before and after Wade that those guys couldn't hack it without him.

I don't think Wade played with Henry--if you mean Cordell. The year that he sat out, Wardle practiced against him.

[Lennys Tap]

Probably.  Though I thought we had a number of good back to back years...3 straight NCAAs when he left and walk in the park 4th straight left for his predecessor.  That seems like pretty good back to back years...or are you talking about recruiting?  Tough to tell with you.  You need to be clearer.

Think it's clear mu was talking about recruiting. While we're on the subject of clarity, Buzz was not TC's "predecessor". He was his successor.

[Stuckin1977]

1) No - a coach leaving a school is not a 'legit reason' per the NLI.  That is completely false.  Student-athletes commit to INSTITUTIONS contractually.

2) The word that has been disputed is CHOSEN.  Chicos said he doesn't believe has CHOSEN a school until he signs.  The fact of the matter is a lot of kids NEVER sign with the school they enroll at. 

3) "Verbal commitments are not verbal contracts" - huh?  Yeah, there is nothing binding, but again, many bball players are at schools without a binding contract.

1) Per the NLI it may not be a legit reason, but if you think a player has never been granted permission to leave because of a coach leaving then you've lost your mind

2) No comment, don't really care either


3) Also don't care

[Jay Bee]

1) Per the NLI it may not be a legit reason, but if you think a player has never been granted permission to leave because of a coach leaving then you've lost your mind

2) No comment, don't really care either


3) Also don't care

You could have made this shorter and said, "Jay Bee, you are correct on all of these points.  Sorry, I was wrong."

[jmayer1]

I don't think Wade played with Henry--if you mean Cordell. The year that he sat out, Wardle practiced against him.

You are incorrect.

http://wiki.muscoop.com/doku.php/men_s_basketball/2001

[brewcity77]

Brewcity77 , u sound as if your Dodds twin or Dodds using another name.

Never been on his site, never met him, closest I've come was when he stopped over here for a cup of coffee once and I read about 3 posts. But seriously, who cares about Crean anymore? He did good things for Marquette. We aren't where we are without him. Yet everyone thinks he's a d-bag (myself included). So he put us on the map then took his asshattery tactics to Indiana, leaving us with a coach who seems to be a better recruiter and certainly a guy whose more likable.

I just don't get the continued obsession. Here's what I gather:

• Crean did good things for Marquette
• Crean's personality sucks, so we don't want him at Marquette
• Crean left Marquette with our national profile improved and a coach we all like
• He's gone and has no real impact on our program, we can move on with Buzz as our coach

It seems to me everything worked out perfectly for us, and we didn't even have to go on probation to reap the benefits. Why can't we just be happy at the state of our basketball program rather than trying to sort out what's going on with a different program that is not our rival, is located hundreds of miles away, is in a different conference, and as far as I know hasn't really been a major recruiting opponent (except possibly Dawson, but neither of us got him).

Who cares? More importantly, why would anyone still care?

[GGGG]

+1 brewcity....the Crean-fighting has been old for about two years now.