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Next up: A long offseason

Marquette
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NersEllenson

Quote from: cheebs09 on February 16, 2011, 12:47:55 PM
Does it really matter what those guys do though? I thought we reached out to Miller and he didn't want to come here. I remember Grant said that he wasn't going to leave the South. Bennett did not want to come here either. I know Chicos has said that we could have waited a little bit to get a more proven coach. I honestly don't remember much of the coaching changes immediately after Buzz was hired, but who were some of the other coaches that had we waited would have been a good candidate?

I doubt you will ever get an acutal list from anyone here as to which experienced or accomplished candidates would have come to MU - had we waited longer...because the answer is - there wasn't any accomplished/experienced candidates that wanted the MU job.  Considering we got shot down by 4 young coaches, what makes one think an experienced, accomplished coach (that could actually recruit at a Big East level), would come to MU?
"I'm not sure Cadougan would fix the problems on this team. I'm not even convinced he would be better for this team than DeWil is."

BrewCity77, December 8, 2013

ATL MU Warrior

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 16, 2011, 12:39:44 PM
+1   People don't compare apples to apples here very well, but you just did a nice job of calibrating it correctly.
I'm not sure there are any apples-to-apples comparisons that can be made.  Too many variables. 

If you can make one, go right ahead. 

HoopsMalone

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on February 16, 2011, 11:50:10 AM
I really doubt that if those three were in Buzz's shoes that the results would have been any worse.  So to say he has done "significantly" better is a little misleading.

I guess it depends on what you mean by significantly.  Last year, Buzz over achieved bigtime in my opinion.  St. John's Seton Hall, Cincy, Louisville were all more talented that MU, and Buzz put it together and got us into the tourney.  Remember, most people did not think Acker or Cubillan were high major players.  Based on athleticism and size, they really were not.  The Big East was not as good at the top last year, but the middle was just as good and we came out pretty well.

This year, like has been chronicled by the posts about our tough schedule, we are losing to good teams.  St. John's is more talented team with a bunch of seniors.  We haven't lost to them since LBJ was in office, but this year they are the more talented team.  

Buzz should get heat now and praise last year.  I love that a fanbase does not accept losing.  But, we just don't have as much talent as some of the other teams.  I am not sure another coach would be doing any better.  

ChicosBailBonds

#53
Quote from: cheebs09 on February 16, 2011, 12:47:55 PM
Does it really matter what those guys do though? I thought we reached out to Miller and he didn't want to come here. I remember Grant said that he wasn't going to leave the South. Bennett did not want to come here either. I know Chicos has said that we could have waited a little bit to get a more proven coach. I honestly don't remember much of the coaching changes immediately after Buzz was hired, but who were some of the other coaches that had we waited would have been a good candidate?

My point was and will always be that Buzz wasn't going anywhere.  His one head coaching stint lasted 1 year with a losing record and he left that program on his own accord.  So you have Buzz as a fallback, you spend a few more weeks to get a guy.  If you don't, then Buzz is still there.  No harm no foul.

Some have argued here that you simply can't wait a few weeks.  I call BS.  I remember people here ripping on SJU for the Lavin hire because it took so long...really?  I think they did a phenomenal job with that hire.  I'd argue DePaul did a wonderful job as well considering how long it took and who they got.  Who cares if it takes a few extra weeks.

MU wanted to preserve a recruiting class and they felt Buzz was the best way to do it.  That obviously didn't work and shouldn't surprise anyone as the recruiting class largely broke up.  That was my beef, time we had and we were at the top of the mountain with an absolutely LOADED team.  Spend more than 72 hours to see who you can get.

Now, having said all that, the idea of getting rid of Buzz or saying he's the worst coach in the conference, etc...I find that all to be complete crap.  He's a good coach, he's a young coach, a very good recruiter, he definitely has some learning to do but let's get some perspective. I'm not wild about his assistants but I thought the assistants for our previous HD left a lot to be desired during some years as well.  I'm more concerned with his philosophy sometimes than anything else.

Buzz is our guy and we just have to hope they can get over the hump.  This is a brutal league to cut your chops in coaching.  Brutal.  That was the risk we took in April of 2008.  It was a risk then and it's still a risk today.  That doesn't mean that risk won't pay off handsomely.  We just don't know.  

THIS IS WHY PEOPLE NEED TO WAIT MORE THAN 2 YEARS TO START CROWNING PRINCES around here.  

GGGG

Quote from: Ners on February 16, 2011, 01:18:04 PM
I doubt you will ever get an acutal list from anyone here as to which experienced or accomplished candidates would have come to MU - had we waited longer...because the answer is - there wasn't any accomplished/experienced candidates that wanted the MU job.  Considering we got shot down by 4 young coaches, what makes one think an experienced, accomplished coach (that could actually recruit at a Big East level), would come to MU?


That's not the point.  The point is you made an inaccurate comment.

ChicosBailBonds

Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on February 16, 2011, 01:36:22 PM
I'm not sure there are any apples-to-apples comparisons that can be made.  Too many variables. 

If you can make one, go right ahead. 

I probably can't, but I know it's naive to say Coach X at this school did better than Coach Y at that school and just leave it that.  Yet we hear this type of analysis here all too often.  This is why I've said from day one not to judge our coaching situation in the first few years.  You judge a coach when he has HIS players and has them for several years.  Call it the Matt Doherty or Bruiser Flint Rule, because no one knows until they are truly on their own.

Daniel

#56
Quote from: silverback on February 15, 2011, 10:07:03 PM
There's no denying the fact or defending what we've seen in the last few games. Just awful, clueless, gutless basketball.

We ARE and will continue to be the worst coached team in the Big East. There are teams with less talent behind us in the standings. But given our players, they would also display higher basketball IQ and more hustle than us.

This is also the worst defensive squad seen at Marquette since at least Mike Deane's last couple of teams — or since Dukiet's era at the very least. The proud, tough defensive identity of Marquette basketball built by O'Neill and Crean has been so totally wiped out by this current rube's "paint touches, free throws, just outscore them" idiocy that I'm left dreaming of the day when this Three Stooges reject from Texas takes his sweet tea and barnyard wisdom on to his next victim.
Get upset and sanctimonious, if you choose. Drink the blue and gold kool-aid and pretend the future is bright. But the Buzz honeymoon is over regardless of how this season progresses. Local media is onto him, and so are fans who've been around long enough to know better. The calls for new leadership will begin now with whispers and build consistently now that Crean's properly developed players are gone.

I'll stay a fan and await the inevitable. There will come a new day of proper, well-developed Marquette recruits from major high schools instead of a mishmash of kids not talented or not bright enough to play at a major program out of high school. There will come a day when the high school players we do get are developed properly and put in a position to succeed. There will come a day when this overdressed Boo Radley with a clipboard leads another program to insignificance.

"See, I'm not a monster. I'm just ahead of the curve."

Look - say what yoyu want about HOW the team is playing, how they are undisciplined, how you do not like the way Buzz coaches etc. etc. - all fair game.  But all of your caustic remarks against Buzz and the players as people are out of line  

ChicosBailBonds

Quote from: Ners on February 16, 2011, 01:18:04 PM
I doubt you will ever get an acutal list from anyone here as to which experienced or accomplished candidates would have come to MU - had we waited longer...because the answer is - there wasn't any accomplished/experienced candidates that wanted the MU job.  Considering we got shot down by 4 young coaches, what makes one think an experienced, accomplished coach (that could actually recruit at a Big East level), would come to MU?

Agree, probably will not know the list.

Disagree with your last sentence....I believe MU wanted to save a recruiting class and they also didn't want it to look like a bunch of coaches shot them down so they acted quickly after Miller and Bennett said no.   This is why running a quiet search, something Cords was very good at, is absolutely critical.  The media will get antsy and speculate, but tough. 

Remember this entry from way back when?

http://www.crackedsidewalks.com/2008/05/cottingham-details-process.html


NersEllenson

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on February 16, 2011, 02:02:07 PM

That's not the point.  The point is you made an inaccurate comment.

So you are saying I pulled a Sultan?  Sorry  - I'll try to get it right (in your view) next time.  But, if you want to debate the point - all 4 of the coaches in question shot MU down - so who really cares what results they got?  But if you want to dissect the results of those 4 coaches who told MU thanks but no thanks - Buzz has the best results thus far.

Does Sean Miller coach in the Big East?? No.  Anthony Grant in the Big East?  No. Tony Bennett in the Big East?  No.  Keno Davis in the Big East?  Yes.  The performance of Davis PALES in comparison to Buzz Williams.  Bennett, Grant and Miller haven't done jack the past 2 seasons.  So Sean Miller has Arizona at the top of the Pac 10 this year?  How did he fare last year?  Was Arizona not a Top 5-10 program under Lute Olson?  Pretty strong legacy of success at Arizona. 

And FYI - the point I made was in response to the poster inquiring as to who we might have been able to land if not Buzz at the time of his hire.  Those who are frustrated with the Buzz hire, mention we didn't wait long enough to see who else was available - based on who shot us down - hard to believe and established, accomplished, successful veteran coach would have accepted the MU gig.
"I'm not sure Cadougan would fix the problems on this team. I'm not even convinced he would be better for this team than DeWil is."

BrewCity77, December 8, 2013

ChicosBailBonds

Quote from: HoopsMalone on February 16, 2011, 01:42:17 PM
 Remember, most people did not think Acker or Cubillan were high major players.  Based on athleticism and size, they really were not.  


I truly believe that those people made those assertions based on who brought them in and not based on their ability.  I remember reading absolutely ridiculous commentary last year that not only weren't they high major DI, but not DI players at all, which was insanity.

NersEllenson

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 16, 2011, 02:04:24 PM
I probably can't, but I know it's naive to say Coach X at this school did better than Coach Y at that school and just leave it that.  Yet we hear this type of analysis here all too often.  This is why I've said from day one not to judge our coaching situation in the first few years.  You judge a coach when he has HIS players and has them for several years.  Call it the Matt Doherty or Bruiser Flint Rule, because no one knows until they are truly on their own.

I find it ironic that you trumpet the 5 year wait and see rule, yet 3 posts above in this thread, you are heraliding the hires of Steve Lavin and Oliver Purnell.  Never can do an apples to apples comparison - but I do know that Chicago and New York City are much better hotbeds of high school talent than Milwaukee.  I wonder if Lavin would have come to MKE?  

I don't disagree with you that MU could have waited on Buzz for awhile longer - but there is something to be said about trying to retain a recruiting class - but on the bigger picture - also that it doesn't appear you settled on yoru last resort as a coach.  So if MU went through a long process, and only came back to Buzz at the end - just saying, not the best way to start a relationship...
"I'm not sure Cadougan would fix the problems on this team. I'm not even convinced he would be better for this team than DeWil is."

BrewCity77, December 8, 2013

Goose

Ners---Lavin coaches in BE and everyone on here thought we were too good to talk to him. We hired an unproven, unknown and we are starting to see why he was unproven, unknown.

rocky_warrior

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 16, 2011, 02:36:29 PM
I truly believe that those people made those assertions based on who brought them in and not based on their ability.  I remember reading absolutely ridiculous commentary last year that not only weren't they high major DI, but not DI players at all, which was insanity.

BS.  Early in his Jr. Year Acker looked lost as the PG.  He picked it up at the end of the year when he had to, but we had NO idea he was going to become a lethal 3 pt shooter his Sr. year.  It worked out better than most people hoped based on what the had seen through his Jr year.

Cubillan his Jr year struggled with shoulder problems and had seemed to lose his shooting touch.  When playing PG he was usually lost.  Driving to the hoop he was repeatedly rejected.  His Sr. year?  The shooting came back, he started having success driving to the hoop and distributing the ball.  Again, low expectations based on what fans had seen through the end of his Jr year.

There was no bias based on who recruited them, but rather a bias based on their play the previous year.

GGGG

Quote from: Ners on February 16, 2011, 02:33:26 PM
So you are saying I pulled a Sultan?  Sorry  - I'll try to get it right (in your view) next time.  But, if you want to debate the point - all 4 of the coaches in question shot MU down - so who really cares what results they got? 

LOL....**YOU** brought them up!!!  I didn't...

Quote from: Ners on February 16, 2011, 02:33:26 PM
Does Sean Miller coach in the Big East?? No.  Anthony Grant in the Big East?  No. Tony Bennett in the Big East?  No.  Keno Davis in the Big East?  Yes.  The performance of Davis PALES in comparison to Buzz Williams.  Bennett, Grant and Miller haven't done jack the past 2 seasons.  So Sean Miller has Arizona at the top of the Pac 10 this year?  How did he fare last year?  Was Arizona not a Top 5-10 program under Lute Olson?  Pretty strong legacy of success at Arizona.  

That's what I figured your argument would be.  I am excluding Davis, but the other three all started at places that were in much worse shape than MU was when Buzz took over.  You don't seem to take that into consideration.  Anything to make Buzz look good in your eyes...

ChicosBailBonds

Quote from: Ners on February 16, 2011, 02:41:08 PM
I find it ironic that you trumpet the 5 year wait and see rule, yet 3 posts above in this thread, you are heraliding the hires of Steve Lavin and Oliver Purnell.  Never can do an apples to apples comparison - but I do know that Chicago and New York City are much better hotbeds of high school talent than Milwaukee.  I wonder if Lavin would have come to MKE?  

I don't disagree with you that MU could have waited on Buzz for awhile longer - but there is something to be said about trying to retain a recruiting class - but on the bigger picture - also that it doesn't appear you settled on yoru last resort as a coach.  So if MU went through a long process, and only came back to Buzz at the end - just saying, not the best way to start a relationship...

Nothing ironic at all, I'm trumpeting their (DePaul and SJU) HIRING PROCESS not whether they will end up as great coaches.  BIG DIFFERENCE.  READ my friend, READ!!   They took their time and got good candidates with good track records.  They were lauded for it, hell I took my own shots at DePaul because it's easy to do and fans do that stuff.  At the end of the day, their process was more thorough than ours.

I will use my same 4 to 5 years to judge them as I did our previous guy, our current guy, etc.

ChicosBailBonds

#65
Quote from: rocky_warrior on February 16, 2011, 02:52:29 PM
BS.  Early in his Jr. Year Acker looked lost as the PG.  He picked it up at the end of the year when he had to, but we had NO idea he was going to become a lethal 3 pt shooter his Sr. year.  It worked out better than most people hoped based on what the had seen through his Jr year.

Cubillan his Jr year struggled with shoulder problems and had seemed to lose his shooting touch.  When playing PG he was usually lost.  Driving to the hoop he was repeatedly rejected.  His Sr. year?  The shooting came back, he started having success driving to the hoop and distributing the ball.  Again, low expectations based on what fans had seen through the end of his Jr year.

There was no bias based on who recruited them, but rather a bias based on their play the previous year.

So if I find a bunch of posts that say he can't play linked with because of who brought him in, does that make the BS go away?

Yes, Cubes had injury issues, that hardly makes him less a DI player as some here were saying, he just needed to recover.  The overall point was that they were the sum of the parts. On their own, Mo and Cubes are good but not great players.  On that team with all those ball handlers, they were wonderful complimentary players.  People here get too caught up in individual performances and not TEAM PLAY.  That's one of the things Wisconsin does so well.  It's also why the Gasser rip jobs here are so out of line.  At the end of the day, Gasser isn't going to have the stats, but he fits a role on that team...a team that is playing much better than ours.  A team with a few stars and a lot of guys that get their role.  What a concept.

Did you guys fix the ghosts in the machine last night that had posts magically disappearing?


NersEllenson

Quote from: Goose on February 16, 2011, 02:42:29 PM
Ners---Lavin coaches in BE and everyone on here thought we were too good to talk to him. We hired an unproven, unknown and we are starting to see why he was unproven, unknown.

I highly doubt MU thought they were "too good" to talk to Lavin.  I also highly doubt that L.A. Lavin would have settled in Milwaukee.  NYC on the other hand - that's more Lavin.
"I'm not sure Cadougan would fix the problems on this team. I'm not even convinced he would be better for this team than DeWil is."

BrewCity77, December 8, 2013

Goose

Ners----Bob Huggins went to Manhattan, KS, Lavin would have come to MU. Unfortunately Cottingham listened to TC and Doc Rivers and the rest is history.

I stick with my premise that MU and too many fans set a low bar for us. Hear all the time "he would not" or "why would He come here?" from posters on here. Money talks and we walk.

NersEllenson

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on February 16, 2011, 02:53:04 PM
LOL....**YOU** brought them up!!!  I didn't...

That's what I figured your argument would be.  I am excluding Davis, but the other three all started at places that were in much worse shape than MU was when Buzz took over.  You don't seem to take that into consideration.  Anything to make Buzz look good in your eyes...

Arizona and Virginia aren't exactly bottom of the barrel universities or destinations.  And, Arizona was a Top 20 program for about 20 of the last 22 years.  Alabama recently beat MU in the NCAA tourney, did that not in 2005-2006?  Not sure that the empty MU recruiting classes after the Big 3 Class exactly set MU up to be in a great position after the Big 3 graduated...
"I'm not sure Cadougan would fix the problems on this team. I'm not even convinced he would be better for this team than DeWil is."

BrewCity77, December 8, 2013

NersEllenson

Quote from: Goose on February 16, 2011, 03:09:03 PM
Ners----Bob Huggins went to Manhattan, KS, Lavin would have come to MU. Unfortunately Cottingham listened to TC and Doc Rivers and the rest is history.

I stick with my premise that MU and too many fans set a low bar for us. Hear all the time "he would not" or "why would He come here?" from posters on here. Money talks and we walk.


I'd still say you are a little quick to judge how things are going to turn out under Buzz.  Steve Lavin aint Bob Huggins (a West Virginia born and raised individual).  Lavin is city slick.
"I'm not sure Cadougan would fix the problems on this team. I'm not even convinced he would be better for this team than DeWil is."

BrewCity77, December 8, 2013

rocky_warrior

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 16, 2011, 02:57:37 PM
So if I find a bunch of posts that say he can't play linked with because of who brought him in, does that make the BS go away?

Only if those posts come from someone other than the 5 usual's that make a living ripping on the guy that recruited Mo and DC.

Goose

Money talks. NOBODY aside from MU offered Buzz a job when TC left. We made a knee jerk decision, which was made by non basketball people. The advisory board listened to Doc and TC and ran with it. Twenty hours over thirteen interviews and three days they concluded Buzz was it.

I will stand behind me 100% because next hire would be based off a Buzz recommendation the way things are run here. Buzz needs a quality assistant and things will improve.

GGGG

Ners you keep moving the goalposts. You said they have accomplished significantly less. We aren't debating which program is best.

Masterr73

Well if Marquette were to fire Buzz I know who they should hire. Randy Bennett coach of St. Marys

groove

#74
Quote from: Masterr73 on February 16, 2011, 03:55:23 PM
Well if Marquette were to fire Buzz I know who they should hire. Randy Bennett coach of St. Marys

yeah i think four straight 20 win seasons at a mid major beats one season of 14-15 at a mid-major anytime, but then again you have to search for more than 72 hours to find that type of coach. Hopefully the next job search will last longer than 72 hours. Nothing wrong with having someone like buzz as a choice to fall back on.

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