JP tokoto and Marquette

[Henry Sugar]

some pretty good years for Crean but otherwise a mixed bag.  Buzz is clearly better offensively.  Regression this year on defense is concerning but 2009 and 2010 seems was likely due to lack of size.  This year I'd say inexperience on the perimeter is the problem.

Buzz has been the coach for three years.  At what point do we stop making excuses for three years of poor defense (and a downward trend)?

[buckchuckler]

Now UNC has more bodies in the NBA, but none of them have this kind of start power.  UNC has more old guys that played in the NBA but 18/19 year old kids don't care about old guys.

Ummm, Michael Jordan anyone?  I think kids still probably care about MJ.

[babytownfrolics]

Buzz has been the coach for three years.  At what point do we stop making excuses for three years of poor defense (and a downward trend)?

The point where he gets fed up with unrealistic expectations from an overly-entitled fanbase and decides to take his talents elsewhere.

[GGGG]

The point where he gets fed up with unrealistic expectations from an overly-entitled fanbase and decides to take his talents elsewhere.

Are MU fans expectations unrealistic?  I like Buzz.  I like what he has done and what he is doing.  I just think he needs to get a better defense here because it is clearly our weak spot.

[babytownfrolics]

Buzz has been the coach for three years.  At what point do we stop making excuses for three years of poor defense (and a downward trend)?

Whether you want to use the loaded term "excuse," or simply refer to it as a "reason," I do think that the defensive issues year to year are hard to compare because the personnel has changed so much in Buzz's 3 years.  Maybe the guys he has this year simply aren't very good defensively while being extremely good on offense.  Maybe that will change over time once he can acclimate more 4-year players into the team.  I honestly don't know, I'm just offering it as a possibility.

[Henry Sugar]

The point where he gets fed up with unrealistic expectations from an overly-entitled fanbase and decides to take his talents elsewhere.

Buzz is awesome offensively.  He recruits great talent.  He represents the university well and uniquely.  His defensive coaching is bad and needs improvement.

I see nothing unrealistic or entitled with recognizing both the good and bad aspects of Buzz as a coach.

Whether you want to use the loaded term "excuse," or simply refer to it as a "reason," I do think that the defensive issues year to year are hard to compare because the personnel has changed so much in Buzz's 3 years.  Maybe the guys he has this year simply aren't very good defensively while being extremely good on offense.  Maybe that will change over time once he can acclimate more 4-year players into the team.  I honestly don't know, I'm just offering it as a possibility.

I think after three years, rationalizing poor defense no longer becomes "reasons" and starts to become "excuses".  For the record, here is my official perspective on defense and why I'm so concerned about it. 

Until the defense improves, our ceiling is really the standard "first/second round NCAA loss".  I think Buzz overemphasizes the least important aspect of defense and underemphasizes the most important aspect of defense.

http://www.crackedsidewalks.com/2011/01/is-defense-marquettes-achilles-heel.html

[warriors1965]

Whether you want to use the loaded term "excuse," or simply refer to it as a "reason," I do think that the defensive issues year to year are hard to compare because the personnel has changed so much in Buzz's 3 years.  Maybe the guys he has this year simply aren't very good defensively while being extremely good on offense.  Maybe that will change over time once he can acclimate more 4-year players into the team.  I honestly don't know, I'm just offering it as a possibility.

You also have to figure in the poor defense his team displayed at UNO, as well.

Either his scheme is fatally flawed or he cannot teach it properly.

[babytownfrolics]

You also have to figure in the poor defense his team displayed at UNO, as well.

Either his scheme is fatally flawed or he cannot teach it properly.

Crean's teams were bad on defense from 2003-2005, then much better from 2006-2008 (great in 2008).  What changed?  Scheme, coaching, personnel, experience?  A combination of all four?

[Tugg Speedman]

Right, and all this doesn't mean stink in recruiting.

I guess you need to read the article that this thread is about ....


"The pros definitely do stick out," Tokoto said. "It's close to home, it's a great program and they play in one of the toughest conferences in the nation. It's less than 20 minutes away from where I live at. It still feels like home even when I go down there to play open gym or just go watch practice or go watch a game."

Recently, Tokoto spoke on the phone with the No. 1 pick in the 2010 NBA Draft, John Wall. Wall played one season at Kentucky before exiting for the pros.

The conversation was set up by Trimble, who spoke with Wall during a recent Marquette game. Wall was in town to face the Milwaukee Bucks the next night.

"I was having a little problem with playing down to my competition's level for a game, wasn't playing as hard as I should have been, which I've fixed," Tokoto said. "(Wall and I) talked about always just bringing it because you never know who's watching. You never know if it's their first time watching or their last time watching. You've always got to bring your 'A' game no matter who you're playing.

"That was pretty inspirational," he said with a laugh.

---

Buzz is recruiting JP and it means a lot more than stink to him.

But, this is good to know.  When/if 4ever gets game, and Buzz decides to recruit him, he should keep 4ever far away from all NBA players because it does not mean stink to him.

[Tugg Speedman]

Crean's teams were bad on defense from 2003-2005, then much better from 2006-2008 (great in 2008).  What changed?  Scheme, coaching, personnel, experience?  A combination of all four?

personnel ... all the rest was largely the same.

DJ was a lockdown defensive PG and McNeal of BE defensive player of the year his sophomore year and Lazar was excellent.  Burke was adequate in the post.

Maybe Buzz should recruit better defensive players.  Wait, he did, in VB.  But all anyone looks at with him is ball touches, offense and the mechanics of his shot.  (I understand he has struggled the last few games but before that he was very effective defensively and all everyone whined about was his offensive production)

[MerrittsMustache]

I hear what your saying but Wesley is not a former player, unless something happened this morning I missed.

Wes most definitely is a former MU player...unless he's wearing a wig and calling himself Jae Crowder 

[Pakuni]

Buzz has been the coach for three years.  At what point do we stop making excuses for three years of poor defense (and a downward trend)?

So, then, it's your contention that MU's defensive woes the past three years are the result of scheme and coaching deficiencies rather than personnel deficiencies?

I'm not saying you're right or wrong, but I'd be interested in knowing how you defend that position. And perhaps enlightening us on the nature of those deficiencies.
I sincerely don't mean this as a swipe, but it's not difficult to look at a bunch of sabermetric-type statistics and declare trends, etc. I'm more interested in the causes of those trends.

[jfmu]

I guess you need to read the article that this thread is about ....


"The pros definitely do stick out," Tokoto said. "It's close to home, it's a great program and they play in one of the toughest conferences in the nation. It's less than 20 minutes away from where I live at. It still feels like home even when I go down there to play open gym or just go watch practice or go watch a game."

Recently, Tokoto spoke on the phone with the No. 1 pick in the 2010 NBA Draft, John Wall. Wall played one season at Kentucky before exiting for the pros.

The conversation was set up by Trimble, who spoke with Wall during a recent Marquette game. Wall was in town to face the Milwaukee Bucks the next night.

"I was having a little problem with playing down to my competition's level for a game, wasn't playing as hard as I should have been, which I've fixed," Tokoto said. "(Wall and I) talked about always just bringing it because you never know who's watching. You never know if it's their first time watching or their last time watching. You've always got to bring your 'A' game no matter who you're playing.

"That was pretty inspirational," he said with a laugh.

---

Buzz is recruiting JP and it means a lot more than stink to him.

But, this is good to know.  When/if 4ever gets game, and Buzz decides to recruit him, he should keep 4ever far away from all NBA players because it does not mean stink to him.

seriously i thought with the couple of "vacations" that were given out the hijackings would stop.

[MuMark]

I don't believe he meant pro basketball players when he said "the pro's stick out"


I think he meant the pros(as in pros and cons) of going to MU stand out.

None of this means anything really. When he talks to a NC paper he will talka bout how great NC and Old Roy are. When he talks to a Madison paper he will say how much he loves Bo.

Its great that he likes Buzz and respects him. Its good that we are in the hunt.

We'll see how it turns out.

[Steve Buscemi]

When did this turn into a buzz crean topic. In case you forgot, the thread has nothing to do with Tom crean or defensive trends.

[Lennys Tap]

According to Pomeroy, the 2003 team was #1 in offensive efficiency, and #101 in defensive efficiency.

2004:  42 offense, 159 defense
2005:  73 offense, 129 defense
2006:  31 offense, 54 defense
2007:  49 offense, 31 defense
2008:  24 offense, 10 defense
2009:  9 offense, 51 defense
2010:  22 offense, 57 defense
2011:  6 offense, 83 defense

some pretty good years for Crean but otherwise a mixed bag.  Buzz is clearly better offensively.  Regression this year on defense is concerning but 2009 and 2010 seems was likely due to lack of size.  This year I'd say inexperience on the perimeter is the problem.

So statistically the Buzz/Crean standings look like this over the past 9 years.
Offense:
1. Crean 2003 (final 4 -Wade, Jackson, Diener, Novak, Merritt, et al)
2.Buzz  2011
3.Buzz  2009
4.Buzz  2010
5.Crean 2008
6.Crean 2006
7.Crean 2004
8.Crean 2007
9. Crean 2005

Total knockout for Buzz.

Defense:
1.Crean 2008
2.Crean 2007
3.Buzz   2009
4.Crean 2006
5.Buzz  2010
6.Buzz  2011
7.Crean 2003 (Final 4)
8.Crean 2005
9.Crean 2004

Basically a dead heat. Buzz avg team ranking 4.67, TC avg 5.16.

Overall, a solid edge to Buzz. Most interesting is that our top two teams on offense (2003 and this year) were so poor on defense (7th and 6th and 101 and 83 overall).

[rocky_warrior]

Buzz has been the coach for three years.  At what point do we stop making excuses for three years of poor defense (and a downward trend)?

So if our defense is good next year it will be proof that
a) Buzz fixed the problem
b) The players are playing Buzzes defense better
c) Solar Flares caused MU to play bad defense.

I get that we haven't been a great defensive team under Buzz, and I also get that in his whopping 4 years as a head coach it appears to be a problem of his.  However, the whole CS team beating the drum on "bad defense" is getting rather tiresome.  He's a relatively new and young head coach, and he's so far proven to be very adaptable on the offensive end, I have no reason to believe that he won't also get better on teaching/coaching defense.

I guess I'm trying to figure out what point your making in constantly complaining about defense.  Or maybe there isn't a point, and it just bugs you.   I always appreciate your stats HS, but now it seems like you're just using them to back up your complaint.  That's valid, I suppose.

Also, I'm pretty sure Buzz pays *some* attention to the forums and CS, so maybe all the stats will help him out (since he's a numbers guy).

What am I saying?  I donno.  Don't lose faith that defense won't get better.  It could next year, and then the argument is gone.

[Skatastrophy]

+1 Rocky

[NYWarrior]

I don't believe he meant pro basketball players when he said "the pro's stick out"

I think he meant the pros(as in pros and cons) of going to MU stand out.

None of this means anything really. When he talks to a NC paper he will talka bout how great NC and Old Roy are. When he talks to a Madison paper he will say how much he loves Bo.

Its great that he likes Buzz and respects him. Its good that we are in the hunt.

Good points ... JP is handling himself well with the media to date, and that's not easy to do.  It looks like he's the kind of young man who will not burn a bridge and will say good things about every one of the schools pursuing him.  That's good -- the less drama the better.   

[MerrittsMustache]

When did this turn into a buzz crean topic. In case you forgot, the thread has nothing to do with Tom crean or defensive trends.

Are you kidding? Every thread is about Tom Crean!

[TallTitan34]

+2 Rocky

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

So if our defense is good next year it will be proof that
a) Buzz fixed the problem
b) The players are playing Buzzes defense better
c) Solar Flares caused MU to play bad defense.

I get that we haven't been a great defensive team under Buzz, and I also get that in his whopping 4 years as a head coach it appears to be a problem of his.  However, the whole CS team beating the drum on "bad defense" is getting rather tiresome.  He's a relatively new and young head coach, and he's so far proven to be very adaptable on the offensive end, I have no reason to believe that he won't also get better on teaching/coaching defense.

I guess I'm trying to figure out what point your making in constantly complaining about defense.  Or maybe there isn't a point, and it just bugs you.   I always appreciate your stats HS, but now it seems like you're just using them to back up your complaint.  That's valid, I suppose.

Also, I'm pretty sure Buzz pays *some* attention to the forums and CS, so maybe all the stats will help him out (since he's a numbers guy).

What am I saying?  I donno.  Don't lose faith that defense won't get better.  It could next year, and then the argument is gone.

Well, honestly, what else is there to criticize?

Buzz's team(s) does a lot of things well, but their defense appears to be the department that is lacking.

A more experienced team will help. A deeper roster could help if Buzz is willing to go deeper on the bench. Some more height will help. A lot of things could help.

But, for right now, MU is losing, and has lost over the past 3 seasons primarily because of defense.

With all of this said, I think next years team could be elite if the little things go right (ie injuries, transfers, etc.), but they will have to be better on the defensive end to get there.

[Henry Sugar]

/attempting unjack

By the way, Tokoto does seem to hang out around Marquette a lot.  Should be interesting to see what happens with his recruitment.

[GGGG]

I get that we haven't been a great defensive team under Buzz, and I also get that in his whopping 4 years as a head coach it appears to be a problem of his.  However, the whole CS team beating the drum on "bad defense" is getting rather tiresome.  

OK...isn't that the point of this forum?  To talk about MU basketball?

[Lennys Tap]

Buzz has been the coach for three years.  At what point do we stop making excuses for three years of poor defense (and a downward trend)?

We have taken a step back this year and I honestly don't know why (more uptempo offense? lots of new guys in the rotation? lack of size/rebounding? poor technique? bad coaching?), but I wouldn't call it a "trend". From Buzz's 1st year to his 2nd we dropped from 51st to 57th in defensive efficiency while losing our best on ball defender in at least a couple of decades (DJ), our Big East defensive POY (Jerel) and an NBA starter (Wesley) and replacing them with 2 tiny career backups (Mo and Cubie) and a JC guy (DJO). On the front line the split between Burke and JFB became 100% Jimmy and Lazar had to move from the 4 to the 5. Any (fair) way you cut it,staying basically the same defensively despite those losses is indicative of improvement rather than a downward trend.