Just returned from South Bend

[Marquette65]

 and have to report that the curse is alive and well.  Speaking of, I surprised that there has been very little discussion of VB's recent performance(s).  VB's performances ( or lack there of) raise of number of interesting questions some of which are: 1. How good is he? 2. Is Buzz's recruiting really are good as advertised? 3. Where is the depth we were told we had at the beginning of the year? 4. Can any of the current players be counted on to contribute next year considering they never see the floor this year?

As to question 1, VB , once conference play began, VB has regressed.  His play against Lville and ND has been just terrible. He has the rep. of being a defense stopper but he has consistently failed to find his guy, been out of position to the point that JC yelled at him a couple of times at ND about his failure to be in position.

Question 2,3,4 the large majority of our scoring and rebounding has come from JUCOs and Buzz gets lots of credit for this but where is the foundation for the future? Other than JC, there is not a freshman or soph that is making any type of contribution. Does anyone really have any faith that DG, JJ Ewill, will make any contribution next year since they can't even get off the bench this year?  Yes, one of the incoming class id " suppose" to be good but all we have to do is look down the current bench when the same was said.

Other teams seem to get contribution from their bench why can't MU?

[MuMark]

Fulce and Cadougan both gave MU nice contributions from the bench in South Bend.


Vander wil be fine. So will Jamil Wilson.

Interesting that you didn't post about Vander after he scored 12 and played great against Depaul.

He is a freshman. They go through ups and downs. He needs to improve his shot and his decision making.


As he matures I'm sure he will.

[79Warrior]

Fulce and Cadougan both gave MU nice contributions from the bench in South Bend.


Vander wil be fine. So will Jamil Wilson.

Interesting that you didn't post about Vander after he scored 12 and played great against Depaul.

He is a freshman. They go through ups and downs. He needs to improve his shot and his decision making.


As he matures I'm sure he will.

I think his point is VB play against quality teams, not High school teams.

[Goose]

I think the biggest problem with VB or any top Frosh is winning is so important today that coaches are afraid to take chances with PT. I would play VB as many minutes as possible and prepare for next year. Unfortunately coaches need to win now to keep a job and that makes developing a player difficult.

VB is going to be a stud but there will be more negative days in short haul.

[GoldenWarrior]

I think the biggest problem with VB or any top Frosh is winning is so important today that coaches are afraid to take chances with PT. I would play VB as many minutes as possible and prepare for next year. Unfortunately coaches need to win now to keep a job and that makes developing a player difficult.

VB is going to be a stud but there will be more negative days in short haul.

I would agree with this statement if it weren't for the fact that I really don't think Buzz is anywhere near the hot seat, nor will he be any time soon.  I think that overall the University loves what he teaches and how he represents the university and as long as he keeps us competitive on the court he's safe and sound here... so basically I don't think that he faces the proverbial 'win now' mentality that many other coaches face.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I think the biggest problem with VB or any top Frosh is winning is so important today that coaches are afraid to take chances with PT.

Unless your Bo Ryan with Gasser

[Goose]

Chico's--- I agree Buzz is nowhere need a hot seat at MU. However, I do believe that he falls into the camp of win now to not get near the hot seat. I realize I am in the minority but I think Buzz is in over his head (game coaching) and thus makes him insecure in his position.

Let's be honest even Buzz Williams thought he had no chance to be head coach at MU four years ago. It is a fairy tale story him getting job and I think he does worry that someday someone of power will say "did we really hire Buzz Williams?"

Not trying to be anti Buzz but I still cannot believe he is our coach.

[Boone]

Buzz' recruiting ability is the least of my worries for this team. Hope he adds another JUCO this spring, as he's had particular success with those kids.

[jesmu84]

Since buzz became head coach, I haven't questioned his ability to recruit - I think he's excellent at doing so.  My thoughts have more wandered to whether or not Buzz, or his staff, has the ability to develop young (especially raw) talent.  When he came in, the 3 amigos and Lazar played extremely well under Buzz, as have the JUCOs, and that is certainly nothing to complain about.  In fact, I would venture to say that some of those guys have improved under Buzz.  But I wonder about the staff's ability to teach fundamentals and build those to the necessary level for the freshman/4 year players we have.  anyone have any thoughts on the staff's ability to develop 4 year players? Has there been enough data to reach a conclusion either way?

[NavinRJohnson]

VB's production is down, and he is definitely struggling some, but all you have to do is watch him play to see the talent. I think if that kid had Buycks confidence and swagger he would be an ALL BE caliber player. He's just gotta learn to play consistently, and Buzz has to continue to try to find him the right role. I'm not worried. He's gonna be a good one.

[AlumKCof93]

I don't question Buzz's ability to develop talent, I think the progress of Wes, Lazar, and JFB are testament to his ability.  However, his in-game strategy is in question and will be until we our success coming out of timeouts and in pulling out some close games improves.

[MuMark]

We won 3 straight road overtime games last year and beat UCONN on a last 2nd shot. Buzz was the coach in all of those games.

Hasn't worked out as well this year but Buzz proven he can win close games as a coach.

[Marquette65]

for all those who are not worried because VB is going to be a " great" one, what evidence is there to back up that statement? That he is fast? has a good handle?  can score?  can shoot?  can be a shut down defender? To date there is not even a hit of that.  By the way, we are assuming competition is decent, not De Paul.

[Lennys Tap]

Not trying to be anti Buzz but I still cannot believe he is our coach.

 I too cannot believe Buzz Williams is our coach. We end up with a rising star in the coaching profession instead of some mediocre retread like McKillop, Lowery or Brownell. Thank you Fr Wild and Steve Cottingham for not taking the "safe" (and very wrong) road.

 

[Tugg Speedman]

See the Thread about Kemba Walker ....

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=23888.msg265039#msg265039

I hope Vander looks at Kemba Walker and can sees potential what he can accomplish over the next couple of years.  I remember that Kemba Walker was highly touted as a Freshman but it has taken a couple of years to reach what he has become, i.e., one of the best, if not the best guard in the country.  If you look at his stats, 8.9PPG as a Freshman, 14.6 as a sophomore, now, as a Junior, it is Kemba's team (25PPG).  Also, it is interesting to note that improvement in Kemba Walker's outside shooting, 27% 3pt shooting as a Frosh, to 36% today.

Vander, keep up the good work and work on your outside shoot.  In a couple of years, this will be your team.

Oh by the way, on Tuesday, you will have an opportunity to shut him down!  

---

Downtown85 is correct ... Walker's Freshman numbers and Vander current numbers are similar

Walker's Freshman year ...

http://espn.go.com/ncb/player/profile?playerId=41515

Season Averages
SEASON    TEAM    MIN    PTS    REB    AST    TO    A/T    STL    BLK    PF    FG%    FT%    3P%    PPS
2008-2009    CONN    25.2    8.9    3.5    2.9    1.8    1.58    1.1    .2    1.6    .470    .715    .271    1.37

Vander's current year

http://espn.go.com/ncb/player/profile?playerId=51393

SEASON    TEAM    MIN    PTS    REB    AST    TO    A/T    STL    BLK    PF    FG%    FT%    3P%    PPS
2010-2011    MARQ    23.9    8.2    3.2    2.5    1.8    1.36    1.3    .4    2.2    .480    .649    .222    1.28

----

That's not the only thing that Walker and Blue have in common ... Walker's freshman year saw Uconn65 writing him off as well.

[warriors1965]

I too cannot believe Buzz Williams is our coach. We end up with a rising star in the coaching profession instead of some mediocre retread like McKillop, Lowery or Brownell. Thank you Fr Wild and Steve Cottingham for not taking the "safe" (and very wrong) road.

 

A "rising star" would know how to coach defense and Buzz doesn't.

Buzz is what he is.  He's a good recruiter and a bad X's and O's coach.  Probably overall a BC by MU's grading system.

[Tugg Speedman]

I too cannot believe Buzz Williams is our coach. We end up with a rising star in the coaching profession instead of some mediocre retread like McKillop, Lowery or Brownell. Thank you Fr Wild and Steve Cottingham for not taking the "safe" (and very wrong) road.

In 1983 an young and unproven coach name Mike Krzyzewski was finishing his third season at Duke.  They would finish the year at 11 - 17, 3 - 11 in the ACC.  Duke faithful, including Duke65, were calling for his head.

[tower912]

7 man rotation, shortest team in any major conference, and yet we competed at a high level in one of the top conferences.   Yup, his X's and O's are suspect.   Just like all of us, he can learn and grow.   But I honestly don't know what team you are watching.   

[Lennys Tap]

7 man rotation, shortest team in any major conference, and yet we competed at a high level in one of the top conferences.   Yup, his X's and O's are suspect.   Just like all of us, he can learn and grow.   But I honestly don't know what team you are watching.   

This

[Dr. Blackheart]

Best offense in BE play, 8th nationally this season. Made wine out of water last season. Two NCAA teams in two years and on the verge in a reload year. A couple of top rated recruiting classes. Great game prep including X & O's. A great teacher. Wow

Some recruiting foibles, would like to see a defense that stresses stops vs. one that stresses turnovers, some inexperienced newcomers, some in-game coaching inexperience against GREAT and experienced coaches. Raised expectations are a bitch.  

Do you not have the hawts for Cindy Crawford because of her birth mark?

[Goose]

Hey Lenny--First of all, I am old enough to remember Lenny's Tap so my thoughts do come with some experience on MU ball. Overall the Buzz hiring has turned out far better than I thought it would three years ago. I am NOT anti Buzz, I am PRO MU and believe this is an important couple of years for the program. I do not believe Buzz is rising star by any means. I feel he is a good recruiter and he and his staff are average game coaches.

All of us want the same thing out of the program and have equal voices on this site. Do you think Buzz (a rising star) will be mentioned in "big" coaching opportunities this spring? If so, we have a rising star. Other than UNO and MU Buzz has not interviewed for a big head job. KO and TC were constantly mentioned in job openings every spring. Maybe their character and own PR put out those feelers (yes I do know what happened) but they were mentioned. But that PR was based off overall reputation. Both guys were off the charts assistant coaches and well known in all circles.

In my humble opinion I want the best for Buzz and will support him/program. But I stand by my thoughts that he is in over his head. More empty seats at BC this year, still poor media coverage (placement in paper or news cast) and not enough hype. It seems weird to me that while Buzz continues to get studs overall excitement is lacking.

I am not trying to piss anyone off, just speaking my mind!!!

[Tugg Speedman]

Hey Lenny--First of all, I am old enough to remember Lenny's Tap so my thoughts do come with some experience on MU ball. Overall the Buzz hiring has turned out far better than I thought it would three years ago. I am NOT anti Buzz, I am PRO MU and believe this is an important couple of years for the program. I do not believe Buzz is rising star by any means. I feel he is a good recruiter and he and his staff are average game coaches.

All of us want the same thing out of the program and have equal voices on this site. Do you think Buzz (a rising star) will be mentioned in "big" coaching opportunities this spring? If so, we have a rising star. Other than UNO and MU Buzz has not interviewed for a big head job. KO and TC were constantly mentioned in job openings every spring. Maybe their character and own PR put out those feelers (yes I do know what happened) but they were mentioned. But that PR was based off overall reputation. Both guys were off the charts assistant coaches and well known in all circles.

In my humble opinion I want the best for Buzz and will support him/program. But I stand by my thoughts that he is in over his head. More empty seats at BC this year, still poor media coverage (placement in paper or news cast) and not enough hype. It seems weird to me that while Buzz continues to get studs overall excitement is lacking.

I am not trying to piss anyone off, just speaking my mind!!!

Buzz was frequently mentioned for the Iowa job last year.

Fact is Buzz is not mentioned in part because he has made it clear he is not interested in any openings.  And, short of Texas A&M and/or Texas if those jobs open up, a guy that is not interested in not going to get mentioned.

ADD

If you're at a BE program with great facilities, a private plane, and regaulrly in teh top 25 (excpt this year), how many programs are an uptick from MU? 

Crean showed that IU is not what its cracked up to be.  I'm sure he plan was not to leave a top 10 team in 2008 and got absolutely suck for three or four years.

[Goose]

AnotherMU---I do not believe there is a coach alive not interested in job openings. I hear what Buzz says and have heard it a million times. Money talks and these guys follow. Yes Buzz was mentioned in passing for Iowa last year. Were you seriously concerned he was leaving? I am not one of the TC groupies on here but for several years I was concerned he was leaving. I was concerned because he did a good job and concerned because I felt we were not prepared to make a new hire if it happened.

[Tugg Speedman]

AnotherMU---I do not believe there is a coach alive not interested in job openings. I hear what Buzz says and have heard it a million times. Money talks and these guys follow. Yes Buzz was mentioned in passing for Iowa last year. Were you seriously concerned he was leaving? I am not one of the TC groupies on here but for several years I was concerned he was leaving. I was concerned because he did a good job and concerned because I felt we were not prepared to make a new hire if it happened.

Look at coaches with final four experience that leave and look at what happens to the program.  Now see MU/Buzz over the last 2 1/2 years.  This is one of the smoothest transitions you'll see.  Was their a dip since TC left?  I'm waiting.

It seems your fears about TC leaving were wrong.  In the end we made a good hire as evidenced by the transition.

[Lennys Tap]

Hey Lenny--First of all, I am old enough to remember Lenny's Tap so my thoughts do come with some experience on MU ball. Overall the Buzz hiring has turned out far better than I thought it would three years ago. I am NOT anti Buzz, I am PRO MU and believe this is an important couple of years for the program. I do not believe Buzz is rising star by any means. I feel he is a good recruiter and he and his staff are average game coaches.

All of us want the same thing out of the program and have equal voices on this site. Do you think Buzz (a rising star) will be mentioned in "big" coaching opportunities this spring? If so, we have a rising star. Other than UNO and MU Buzz has not interviewed for a big head job. KO and TC were constantly mentioned in job openings every spring. Maybe their character and own PR put out those feelers (yes I do know what happened) but they were mentioned. But that PR was based off overall reputation. Both guys were off the charts assistant coaches and well known in all circles.

In my humble opinion I want the best for Buzz and will support him/program. But I stand by my thoughts that he is in over his head. More empty seats at BC this year, still poor media coverage (placement in paper or news cast) and not enough hype. It seems weird to me that while Buzz continues to get studs overall excitement is lacking.

I am not trying to piss anyone off, just speaking my mind!!!

Hey Goose, you're certainly entitled to your opinion and you're not pissing me (or anyone else) off. If you're looking for a self promoter or a hype machine he's not for you. But anyone who can coach up a team like last year's to a 6 seed in the NCAA tournament is a rising star in my book.

[NavinRJohnson]

for all those who are not worried because VB is going to be a " great" one, what evidence is there to back up that statement? That he is fast? has a good handle?  can score?  can shoot?  can be a shut down defender? To date there is not even a hit of that.  By the way, we are assuming competition is decent, not De Paul.

If are only willing to look at production half way through his Freshman season, and can't see the obvious talent and athleticism there, I'm afraid there is nothing I or anyone else can do to help you, other than to say, "wait and see." Is anything guaranteed? No, but in my opinion, based on what I've seen, he is going to be a very good player.

[PaintTouches]

More empty seats at BC this year, still poor media coverage (placement in paper or news cast) and not enough hype. It seems weird to me that while Buzz continues to get studs overall excitement is lacking.

Seems like the data disagrees with your assertion that there are more empty seats under Buzz. Just saying.

Year  Rank Team   Games  Total     Average
2005- 21. Marquette 21     251,274  11,965
2006- 18. Marquette 16     223,983  13,998
2007- 14. Marquette 20     306,893  15,345
2008- 14. Marquette 17     276,064  16,239
2009- 10. Marquette 18     291,596  16,200
2010- 10. Marquette 17     265,484  15,617

[Goose]

Lenny---I am not looking for self promoter, but will say we did have pretty good one of those 35 years ago. My only concern is doing what is needed to be done for the long haul. I have no problem with JUCO's (actually like them) but do not think that is the route for long term success. That is the path taken when you do not want to go back three steps. I said this three years ago that I would rather go back ten steps quickly and build from there. Our foundation needs to be rebuilt too quickly. Going backwards is OK if you have a long term plan. I think we have short term plan on how not to go backwards.

Buzz has proven to be a good coach. I would say that you and I have different definitions of rising star but that is fine. I can assure you that my definition of rising star has been wrong more than right.

[Goose]

pux---I am talking empty seats and not seats sold. You were impressed at ND crowd two weeks ago? I love MU ball as much as anyone but I am not going to lie to myself. Excitement is lower this year and that scares me.

[Tugg Speedman]

You were impressed at ND crowd two weeks ago? I love MU ball as much as anyone but I am not going to lie to myself.

Kids were still on break for ND

[Goose]

I understand kids were on break but it was the ninth ranked team in the country. I do not want to come across as negative and want the best. That said, I do think there are warning signs of potential trouble.  I would say MU is to blame for ticket situation as much as students being gone. Season ticket selection and cost are not user friendly. Duke can be dick's to season ticket holder...MU cannot.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Kids were still on break for ND

and a 6:00 Pm game where many come up from Chicago and the BCS championship game was on right after.  Was surprised UND contingent wasn't larger either. Made for TV game.

[PaintTouches]

pux---I am talking empty seats and not seats sold. You were impressed at ND crowd two weeks ago? I love MU ball as much as anyone but I am not going to lie to myself. Excitement is lower this year and that scares me.

I wouldn't know about how the crowd looked in the BC since I'm 6 time zones away, but all i'm saying is that statistically speaking, there has been no drop off, it has actually gone up. Yes, "excitement" could well be down, but that's exactly what people (including myself) were saying last year. There is always less excitement when a team is not ranked. My point being that to blame Buzz for a lack of "buzz" is disingenuous and therefore a bad marker of how good of a job he is doing.   

[Goose]

pux---I was in China for ND game and my kids attended. They were the ones that were shocked with crowd. The "buzz" is all part of a program. You stated that the same could be said last year on excitement, do we want to be saying it again next year? I can tell you I am optimistic and love the thought of next years team. I voted Elite 8 on the poll a couple of weeks ago for next year. All I am saying is maybe, just maybe, Buzz is in over his head.

[tower912]

I understand kids were on break but it was the ninth ranked team in the country. I do not want to come across as negative and want the best. That said, I do think there are warning signs of potential trouble.  I would say MU is to blame for ticket situation as much as students being gone. Season ticket selection and cost are not user friendly. Duke can be dick's to season ticket holder...MU cannot.

And that should be put on Buzz's shoulders how exactly.   

[Tugg Speedman]

and a 6:00 Pm game where many come up from Chicago and the BCS championship game was on right after.  Was surprised UND contingent wasn't larger either. Made for TV game.

This is a good point, I'm in Chicago and passed on going to the game because I did not want to leave work early AND miss the BCS national championship game that started 10 minutes before our game ended.

I'm sure I'm not the only one that made this decision.

Regarding Duke,

Cameron indoor seats 9300.  

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=218099

We have 15,500 in ticket sales.

If MU moved played in a 9300 seat arena tomorrow, we too can be total dicks to the season ticket holders.  

That said, why is abusing ticket holders because you play in a tiny arena a virtue?

[Goose]

Tower---Coaches fill seats. Having a national televised game with 35% empty seats is wrong. KO know how to sell a program as did TC.

AnotherMU---Come on, do you really think MU ticket policy is user friendly? Duke can be a dick because they are good, not because of 9300 seat joint. We sold out Mecca for years and could have sold out Miller Park. I realize TV changes alot but empty seas is not great recruiting tool.

[Tugg Speedman]

Tower---Coaches fill seats. Having a national televised game with 35% empty seats is wrong. KO know how to  I realize TV changes alot but empty seas is not great recruiting tool.

No but an NBA arena is a Huge recruiting tool.  "Here JP Tokoto, sit at Brandon Jennings locker for a minute and visualize playing for MU."

[tower912]

Goose, what is different in the amount of disposable income in SE Wisconsin compared to 5 years ago?    And for whatever reason, we are getting the 10 AM on NYD game or the Tuesday night early game.    Tough for people to make the drive from Chi-town for a 6 PM start. 

[Goose]

AnotherMU--You are correct on NBA arena 100%. But if you think an empty seats help I strongly disagree. This goes back to my building a foundation point. We already play in NBA arena and have that advantage so selling it out would be priority to me if I were Buzz/MU. Would have to think it would add to the attraction.

[Goose]

Tower---Bingo on disposable income issue. Make it user friendly and fill the barn up. I watch Louisville sell out their dump and we play to empty seats. Louisville is not bigger market and yet they find a way. Trust me I do not want to be Louisville but times are tough everywhere.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Tower---Bingo on disposable income issue. Make it user friendly and fill the barn up. I watch Louisville sell out their dump and we play to empty seats. Louisville is not bigger market and yet they find a way. Trust me I do not want to be Louisville but times are tough everywhere.

The Yum Center is not a dump...maybe the best in the nation.  Louisville has no NBA team. UL is their NBA team and NFL for football. They built the Yum Center to attract the NBA eventually.  MU is top ten in attendance. UND needed 1000 MU fans to drive down there to sell out a 8000 seat arena for a rated home team. 

[Tugg Speedman]

AnotherMU--You are correct on NBA arena 100%. But if you think an empty seats help I strongly disagree. This goes back to my building a foundation point. We already play in NBA arena and have that advantage so selling it out would be priority to me if I were Buzz/MU. Would have to think it would add to the attraction.

But we are top 15 in attendance in the nation.

See this old post that is still largely true.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=9173.msg77898;topicseen#msg77898

MU attendance is 200% the size of its undergrad population.  Only six other schools have a larger %.  The fact is we play in a relatively huge arena so it is not going to sell out.  Or, we could boost the undergrad population to 15,000 and pack 10,000 kids into the BC. These are the numbers Louisville uses to pack the YUM center.  We get 5,000 to a game and its 75% of the students.  That is a great %turnout.

We could move back to the MECCA (or whatever it is called today) and pack the place.  What would that accomplish?

[Goose]

Dr B.---I know YUM is special place and no NBA, MLB or others. Understand MU bought tickets for ND in SB big time. All my point is I do believe MU has more to offer than most places. I for one do believe MU is tier 1 program (top 25 coaching job). Honestly I watch everyone defend all things MU and most probably hold MU in lower regard than I do in overall picture.

We can make excuses or defend anything MU forever. But, it does not address the fact in my opinion we are not reaching our full potential. Tradition in basketball, great school (at least very good), NBA arena and "rising star" as coach were on outside looking in. In my opinion with all we have going for us we should be looking in our rearview mirror and most of our competition. For all we have going for us every year we sit at our computers hoping for a six seed and get pissed when it is an 11.

I am relatively new on here and know Chico's is big TC guy and gets blasted for it. I read people saying TC will be gone at IU shortly and he is not delivering the goods. All that might be true but I believe an IU embraces it's history and sets a higher bar than we do. I really do not get why that is? My bar for the program is very high and not willing to defend MU just to defend it.

[Tugg Speedman]

Dr B.---I know YUM is special place and no NBA, MLB or others. Understand MU bought tickets for ND in SB  For all we have going for us every year we sit at our computers hoping for a six seed and get pissed when it is an 11.

When did this happen?  I thought we WERE a six seed the last two years.

[Goose]

AnotherMU---The Brewers drew 3 million for 2 straight seasons and Packers sell out 70K for as long as I can remember. Your stats/facts are correct but does not tell whole story. People make excuses not to go to event when things are not as they wanted them to be. I would bet the BCS game would take back burner to Chicago fans if MU was ranked #4 vand playing #1 at 6pm on Monday night. Product sells and our product is a bubble team and it gets bubble team support. I stayed home from DePaul because it was on TV and honestly not a must see event.


Sorry for all the posts and believe me I am on your side!!!

[Tugg Speedman]

So unless we are #1 we are butkus?

You said we should be a top 25 program.  By most definition we are.  What you're arguing/complaining about is why we are not a top 10 or top 5 program.  We both want that your posts give me the impression that we could easily be Michigan State is we only wanted to apply ourselves.  It is much more than that to get to that truly elite level.

See Georgetown, would you trade Buzz for JT III?  Right now I would not.  Is GU a better program?  Right now I would say no.

[Goose]

AnotherMU--I think we could be Michigan State.

[Tugg Speedman]

AnotherMU--I think we could be Michigan State.

I do too ... but I think we are in the process of becoming that.  Or, I'm not ready to think Buzz cannot turn us into MSU.  Too early to give up on him.

[Goose]

Not giving up on Buzz at all. I just think we as fans are part of the process. Having blinders on and defending everything is not constructive in my opinion. Empty seats, too many transfers, need for JUCO's and lack of overall respect in area are things that should be addressed. My gut says Michigan State ball is respected in Michigan even though big brother is down the street. You would think MU was UWM with media and overall respect shown locally.

We need to be the elite program in the state by long margin to take the next step. I think we need to bury UW and respect will follow.

FYI--I do realize we have ton of positives, many I mentioned in earlier post. One I did mention, which is our best asset, is graduation rate.

[NersEllenson]

AnotherMU--I think we could be Michigan State.

Goose - Sorry Buddy - but you are delusional in this topic..not citing the specific post I've highlighted above, but all of your responses.  This aint 1970, nor the Al McGuire college basketball landscape anymore.  The MU program had exactly about 15 years of sunshine and prominence under Al McGuire who is an ALL-TIME LEGEND in college basketball.  Buzz is the closest thing MU has had to an Al McGuire since Al left - Buzz can recruit nationally and at the JUCO ranks, and is also a little quirky and weird.  He's not a dime a dozen guy.  There were rumors of him being a candidate for the Oregon job last year too.

Buzz is in Year 3.  He's got a 64% winning percentage playing in the toughest or 2nd toughest league in the country. 

You do realize MU is NOT a destinatin coaching job, correct?  You do realize that Tony Bennett, Sean Miller, Keno Davis, Anthony Grant all passed on interviewing with MU when the job was open, correct?  MU is in a cold weather city, no football team, a small private school - how many Duke's are there in the country?  The deck is plenty stacked against an MU coach - why do you think Tom Crean got out of MKE?  Why do you think Kevin O'Neill got out of MKE?  Duh.  You want to trumpet their accomplishments - which I"m proud of too - but they also felt there were better opportunities elsewhere - and neither of them came down to money.

Buzz is an absolute rising star as a coach, and probably in the converstaton for the best coach under 40 in America (along with Brad Stevens at Butler - who hasn't looked so good this year).

Hell, you even mention you voted for MU to be an Elite 8 team??  If you believe that, then why are you complaingin and questioning if Buzz is the right guy for this job? 

[Goose]

Ners--I have one question, if MU is not a destination job why is "rising" star still here?

You made many valid points and would agree 100% on the landscape today vs. Al's time.

So KO did not ultimately leave because of money?

TC did not ultimately leave because program Godfather gave him lip service?

They ultimately left directly or indirectly for money. KO knew MU would not pay him and TC was afraid MU could stop paying him.

[NersEllenson]

Ners--I have one question, if MU is not a destination job why is "rising" star still here?

You made many valid points and would agree 100% on the landscape today vs. Al's time.

So KO did not ultimately leave because of money?

TC did not ultimately leave because program Godfather gave him lip service?

They ultimately left directly or indirectly for money. KO knew MU would not pay him and TC was afraid MU could stop paying him.

As for why Buzz is still here - think there are 2 solid reasons - and 1 of which you have already mentioned:

1) He probably does have a fair amount of gratitude for being given the opportunity to coach at MU considering he only had 1 year of experience as a Head Coach elsewhere - and Buzz seems to be a fairly aware person, who likely would rewardthe chance taken on him with a decent degree of gratitude/loyalty.

2) Most coaches don't get an offer to go elsewhere after just 2 season at the helm - KO left after  5 years, Crean after 9.  Combine this with Buzz not having an agent, and repeatedly saying he'll be at MU as long as MU will have him...doesn'tseem to be a lot of reason to go after Buzz.

I was at MU when K.O> left, and quite close to the program - and from everything I knew...money was not the reason he left - and from all accounts, MU would have matched whatever Tom Crean was offered elsewhere.

Obviously you are entitled to your opinions, but to me it just seems a little premature to question Buzz - the reality of many MU fans is that if Buzz/team turnaround and beat UCONN and then Syracuse..all will be well again - but if they happen to lose a late lead in one of the games...all of a sudden Buzz won't be able to coach, etc. etc...

[ChicosBailBonds]

Ners--I have one question, if MU is not a destination job why is "rising" star still here?

You made many valid points and would agree 100% on the landscape today vs. Al's time.

So KO did not ultimately leave because of money?

TC did not ultimately leave because program Godfather gave him lip service?

They ultimately left directly or indirectly for money. KO knew MU would not pay him and TC was afraid MU could stop paying him.

TC left because he had a chance to be at one of the 5 great programs of all time.  Sure, he made more money but that wasn't the reason he left.  He couldn't land bigs at MU but has landed 4 bigs now in just the next 2 years at IU.  It's just a lot easier to recruit at a place like IU then MU.  Money wasn't the reason.

[Tugg Speedman]

TC left because he had a chance to be at one of the 5 great programs at all time.  Sure, he made more money but that wasn't the reason he left.  He couldn't land bigs at MU but has landed 4 bigs now in just the next 2 years at IU.  It's just a lot easier to recruit at a place like IU then MU.  Money wasn't the reason.

So are you saying the the clock now ticking in IU?  Two years and no NCAA and he's gone?

[Goose]

Chico's--I respect TC almost as much as you do but I do think there is more to departure. All coaches are insecure in some way TC was getting heat from important people. Not your getting fired heat, but heat to perform. He was not leaving for Iowa but I do not think IU was only place he would have gone that year.

Ners---I was pretty close to program in KO years as well. KO had plenty of issues and money was not only thing, but it was a big reason.

So my question on Buss is, are you worried if we continue to perform at current level that Buzz is gone in 3 years or six years? I think better chance is fired than him going to destination job. For the record I do NOT think he should or will be fired. Just cannot see big time job lurking over Buzz's shoulder. MU is as big as it gets for him.

[NersEllenson]

Chico's--I respect TC almost as much as you do but I do think there is more to departure. All coaches are insecure in some way TC was getting heat from important people. Not your getting fired heat, but heat to perform. He was not leaving for Iowa but I do not think IU was only place he would have gone that year.

Ners---I was pretty close to program in KO years as well. KO had plenty of issues and money was not only thing, but it was a big reason.

So my question on Buss is, are you worried if we continue to perform at current level that Buzz is gone in 3 years or six years? I think better chance is fired than him going to destination job. For the record I do NOT think he should or will be fired. Just cannot see big time job lurking over Buzz's shoulder. MU is as big as it gets for him.

K.O. - Hated the Old Gym..said MU needed better facilities..that was 1 component of his leaving, along with a few run ins with DiUlio...

Reagrding Buzz - If we continue to perform at current levels - keep in mind we have NO idea how this season could end up - I personally still think we have a legit shot to be a Sweet 16 team) - I can see schools tryin gto get Buzz that are BCS conference schools, with footbal teams..in the SEC or Big 12.  Not surre that an Auburn, Texas Tach, Arkansas would be a better basketball program than MU - but they have some things going for them that MU does not..namely security through a football team.

I'd say the chances of Buzz gettin grecruited out of MU are FAR greeater than him getting fired - almost to the tune of 10 to 1 more likely that he'd get recruited out of MU, than get fired.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

TC left because he had a chance to be at one of the 5 great programs of all time.  Sure, he made more money but that wasn't the reason he left.  He couldn't land bigs at MU but has landed been handed 4 bigs now from his AAU program in just the next 2 years at IU.  It's just a lot easier to recruit at a place like IU then MU.  Money wasn't the reason.

fixed.

[mu_hilltopper]

Just wanted to chime in on a previous message in this thread .. I have not seen any noticable difference in (actual) attendance over the past 3+ years -- if anything, it's gone up, especially with the 1,000 $99 season tickets in the upper end zone.

Minus the cupcakes, and minus the days the students are gone, the lower bowl is always 90%+ full. 

Has the rabidity level of fans gone down?  I'll say yes.  And that translates into a few percent drop in actual attendance.   So many years of soul crushing losses, so many years of 5th place finishes (should we hang a banner?) .. so many years of beating up on the lower half of the BE, losing most to the upper half .. so many years of one and dones in March == less rabid fans. 

We've seen this movie before, and it's gotten sadly predictable.   

None of that has to do with Buzz, other than he hasn't broken out of that predictable level of "success" that Crean had (minus his Robert Jackson year.)   

[mviale]

Getting to the dance is the key. Its all about luck and seeding after that.  Fans are spoiled

[mu_hilltopper]

Spoiled?  How so?   That we're not a worse team, so we should be happy with just making it to March?

Huh.  Well, there you go.