D Gardner

[willie warrior]

These posts are hilarious! Earlier in the season people thought Ox should be starting and playing 30 minutes a game. Now people are wondering if he'll EVER be able to contribute in the Big East. What a difference a month makes!

He's a freshman big man playing in arguably the best conference in the country. Give the kid some time. He's going to be a special player for MU in the years to come.

I for one believe Ox should be playing more minutes and believe that he can be a solid contributor right now. He is far superior to Otule on offense and about on par on D. except shot blocking. He is going to develop by playing against BEast competition, but he won't riding the pines. I have said this repeatedly. But some on this board are fixated on Otule and start urinating on Ox to advance their opinion.
I have said repeatedly that both have strengths and weaknesses, and Ox should be getting 15 minutes a game. For whatever reason, Buzz is not allowing this and he gives those minutes to Crowder and Fulce. Crowder is not a post, and neither is Fulce. Nothing against them--Crowder is a stud and should be playing at Forward--Fulce is a role player
The knock on Gardner is that he is not in condition. Not buying that. He played about 19 minutes against Duke, I believe, and besides, I do not believe Otule can go full out for 30 minutes a game either. So "free Ox" and give him the back up minutes, other than 1.5 minutes and then be yanked.

[DJO's Pump Fake]

Did you see him run up and down the court against ND?

[kmwtrucks]

I would Like to see EW, JJ, DG, get 3-4 minutes in a row, I also think you should hide those guys on D.  Particular DG and JJ.   Have DB, DJO, Butler, and Crowder on the floor when they are out there.  This would take some pressure off them on D and O, and let them get up and down the floor and get into a flow. 45 seconds is just not enough for a Freshman.  Fulce can excel in that type of Min's.  

[DrDestiny911]

I think Buzz is a great coach but you kind of see this every year. As soon as Big East play starts, its good by to anyone who isn't a mainstay. I get his approach, he likes having guys that know what they're doing out there, but at the same time I think why MU is sometimes in the tight situations is because throughout the course of the game, there is a physical wear both endurance wise and actual health wise. I don't care how hard Jimmy is working, after 30+ min in a game he's going to be more tired and less able to keep his head in the game than if DG, EW, or JJ had taken just 5 min of that time. While Jimmy may not be the best example it certainly would hold true for someone like Buycks who has an injury bug and shouldn't really be overused. I get it, its not high school ball there's a steep learning curve but these guys aren't going to develop without some BE minutes, I mean look at EW he came in fairly highly touted and now seems like a flop, I think he's got the skill set just hasn't had the time to develop it, practice and game are completely different. This isn't even addressing the whole causing kids to transfer issue which I really believe is part of it. Look I'm not really bummed that Hazel, Maymon and Smith transfered but it seems like this is a continuing trend under Buzz and honestly it worries me that we won't be able to get sleeper high school players because they'll feel forced to the bench, kind of an aside but still.

[MerrittsMustache]

I think Buzz is a great coach but you kind of see this every year. As soon as Big East play starts, its good by to anyone who isn't a mainstay. I get his approach, he likes having guys that know what they're doing out there, but at the same time I think why MU is sometimes in the tight situations is because throughout the course of the game, there is a physical wear both endurance wise and actual health wise. I don't care how hard Jimmy is working, after 30+ min in a game he's going to be more tired and less able to keep his head in the game than if DG, EW, or JJ had taken just 5 min of that time. While Jimmy may not be the best example it certainly would hold true for someone like Buycks who has an injury bug and shouldn't really be overused. I get it, its not high school ball there's a steep learning curve but...

For the most part, the non-conference portion of the college basketball season is the "preseason." You see a lot more players get minutes in those games and not just because they're typically blow-outs. Coaches want to see what they have and how players perform in game situations. By the time the conference season comes around, most teams compress their rotations down to the best, most effective 7-9 guys.

...these guys aren't going to develop without some BE minutes, I mean look at EW he came in fairly highly touted and now seems like a flop, I think he's got the skill set just hasn't had the time to develop it, practice and game are completely different.

Calling Williams a flop is just plain ignorant. He's a sophomore who has spent 1.5 seasons playing behind MU's 2 best players (Hayward and Butler) during that time. Crowder has also proved to be a much more polished player at this point. Not every player who's rated in the top 100 is going to show up on campus and be Carmelo Anthony. Those players are few and far between. I fully expect EWill to be a big contributor in the next 2 seasons. 

This isn't even addressing the whole causing kids to transfer issue which I really believe is part of it. Look I'm not really bummed that Hazel, Maymon and Smith transfered but it seems like this is a continuing trend under Buzz and honestly it worries me that we won't be able to get sleeper high school players because they'll feel forced to the bench, kind of an aside but still.

A vast majority of high school players go to college and find themselves sitting on the bench. The number of freshmen who have an impact right away is a very small percentage.

[ErickJD08]

He has hit a wall against Big East competition. Hopefully it doesn't get into his head.

I could argue that Duke is better than every team inteh BE

[GGGG]

I for one believe Ox should be playing more minutes and believe that he can be a solid contributor right now. He is far superior to Otule on offense and about on par on D.

Otule is way superior to Ox on defense...it's really not even close.

[GGGG]

This isn't even addressing the whole causing kids to transfer issue which I really believe is part of it. Look I'm not really bummed that Hazel, Maymon and Smith transfered but it seems like this is a continuing trend under Buzz and honestly it worries me that we won't be able to get sleeper high school players because they'll feel forced to the bench, kind of an aside but still.

If a player wants to transfer because he is not getting playing time he doesn't deserve in the first place, then transfer.

[79Warrior]

These posts are hilarious! Earlier in the season people thought Ox should be starting and playing 30 minutes a game. Now people are wondering if he'll EVER be able to contribute in the Big East. What a difference a month makes!

He's a freshman big man playing in arguably the best conference in the country. Give the kid some time. He's going to be a special player for MU in the years to come.

what a difference playing real teams versus cupcakes. Compare apples to apples.

[DrDestiny911]

If a player wants to transfer because he is not getting playing time he doesn't deserve in the first place, then transfer.

That's not my point, I actually agree with you there. What I am saying is what kind of message does that send to kids we're trying to recruit that may be three borderline four star recruits. It can't be a good one when we consistently have at least one guy a year transfer, especially mid-season (basically saying get me outta here), I mean I know if I were being recruited by Buzz that would by my biggest question to him. "Why should I play at MU when these other so called highly touted recruits couldn't wait just another semester to get out (Thereby burning a year of eligibility)."

[Skatastrophy]

Otule is way superior to Ox on defense...it's really not even close.

I would say so too... but I'm really high on Otule after the ND game.  I can't tell if it's afterglow or not.

I'm still really *really* excited to watch Ox develop.  The big man's got some moves!

[MerrittsMustache]

That's not my point, I actually agree with you there. What I am saying is what kind of message does that send to kids we're trying to recruit that may be three borderline four star recruits. It can't be a good one when we consistently have at least one guy a year transfer, especially mid-season (basically saying get me outta here), I mean I know if I were being recruited by Buzz that would by my biggest question to him. "Why should I play at MU when these other so called highly touted recruits couldn't wait just another semester to get out (Thereby burning a year of eligibility)."

Honestly, I don't think most recruits put that much thought into it. Seeing guys like Wade, Wes and Lazar in the NBA makes significantly more of an impact than seeing the third team PG transfer mid-season.

[ATL MU Warrior]

I for one believe Ox should be playing more minutes and believe that he can be a solid contributor right now. He is far superior to Otule on offense and about on par on D. except shot blocking. He is going to develop by playing against BEast competition, but he won't riding the pines. I have said this repeatedly. But some on this board are fixated on Otule and start urinating on Ox to advance their opinion.
I have said repeatedly that both have strengths and weaknesses, and Ox should be getting 15 minutes a game. For whatever reason, Buzz is not allowing this and he gives those minutes to Crowder and Fulce. Crowder is not a post, and neither is Fulce. Nothing against them--Crowder is a stud and should be playing at Forward--Fulce is a role player
The knock on Gardner is that he is not in condition. Not buying that. He played about 19 minutes against Duke, I believe, and besides, I do not believe Otule can go full out for 30 minutes a game either. So "free Ox" and give him the back up minutes, other than 1.5 minutes and then be yanked.

You are the only one.

[willie warrior]

And you, Atlanta, are one of the Ox urinators.

[ATL MU Warrior]

And you, Atlanta, are one of the Ox urinators.

You are entitled to your opinion that Gardner is at this point in his career a legit Big East player.  I'm simply pointing out facts that I see from watching the games.  I'm not sure what you are doing, but it isn't based on any knowledge of basketball.  Are you blind perhaps?  Is that why you don't see what most other posters see in Gardner?  That he is not ready for the level of competition he's facing in the Big East. 

Does this sound like I'm "urinating" on him?

Neither Otule or Gardner are perfect.  I am glad that both are on our team and look forward to them both getting better.  At this point, I think Otule brings more to the position.   

Or this?

I'm not trying to single out Gardner, I like him as a player and I think he's going to be a good player for us if he can get his body right.  But right now, in my opinion based on watching the games, he's clearly a defensive liability when matched up against a mobile, athletic big guy.  Otule is a much better option. 

Or this?

Quote from: warriors1991 on December 30, 2010, 02:35:09 PM
I'll reply to the DG questions, I wrote almost the same thing in a different thread.

DG is a good offensive player. Defensively he's a massive liability. I specifically watched him last night on the defensive end and it's like he's not even trying or moving. He gets schooled on offensive rebounds like a 4th grader (no jumping at all) and then when he gets hit with a foul he drops his shoulders and has the body language of a little kid. [quote ]It looked like Jae yelled at him when he did that last night.
And don't tell me about conditioning and he's still too heavy and blah blah. He's playing about 3 minutes of defense, he's really going to have to work harder and try a LOT harder or he's not going to see the court and that's our loss because there's a lot of good things about DG and loads of potential.
I'm not trying to hammer a 19 year old kid; I really like him and his potential but wow his laziness on the defensive end is concerning.



MU ATL WARRIOR:  These are good observations.  And I hope he figures out how hard he needs to go sooner rather than later.  We're a much better team with him getting minutes if he can hold his own on the defensive end.

Give it up already.  You are in the vast minority with your opinion that he is ready.  That's fine, but deal with it, don't turn it into other people are "urinating" on a member of the team while you are the only one who is somehow supporting him.

[jsglow]

The best way for MU to finish their conference record at something well below .500 is to 'force' minutes on the 9-11th man on the bench.  Our three principal subs are Blue, JC and Joe.  Blue will get about 20 minutes, JC around 15 and Joe 'Mr. Glue' Fulce about 10.  Otule will get the fewest as a starter, maybe 15.  With that math, there's 140 minutes left for the 4 key players.  That's 35 minutes per guy for each of JB, DJO, Buycks, and Jae.  Maybe that 140 total goes down by 10 minutes among the 'Big 4' but not more than that.

Obviously the exact amount will be impacted by fouls, injury, matchups, etc.  Think how much (and how well) JC played against Rutgers when DB was modestly injured.  I don't recall exactly but I think he was in the upper 20s that night.  I do know that DB only did 11. 

I think Gardner's minutes come if and when Otule has foul trouble.  EWill and Jamail get spot time, almost exclusively in the first half or in 'garbage' time unless Fulce weakens or an injury crops up.  Both a good young players who will be expected to contribute more next year.

[77ncaachamps]

Gardner will garner more playing time. But I think Buzz is managing the games...putting the guys in the best position to win.

If Ox manhandles a weak posterior team, then he'll see some more time.

But our current team success has been pressure on the ball and quick transition scoring, none of which suits DG's style.

He's a keeper for sure. A Damon Key down the road...huge impact player as he matures and gets more fitness for this conference play.

[BossplayaOtto]

The best way for MU to finish their conference record at something well below .500 is to 'force' minutes on the 9-11th man on the bench.  Our three principal subs are Blue, JC and Joe.  Blue will get about 20 minutes, JC around 15 and Joe 'Mr. Glue' Fulce about 10.  Otule will get the fewest as a starter, maybe 15.  With that math, there's 140 minutes left for the 4 key players.  That's 35 minutes per guy for each of JB, DJO, Buycks, and Jae.  Maybe that 140 total goes down by 10 minutes among the 'Big 4' but not more than that.

Obviously the exact amount will be impacted by fouls, injury, matchups, etc.  Think how much (and how well) JC played against Rutgers when DB was modestly injured.  I don't recall exactly but I think he was in the upper 20s that night.  I do know that DB only did 11. 

I think Gardner's minutes come if and when Otule has foul trouble.  EWill and Jamail get spot time, almost exclusively in the first half or in 'garbage' time unless Fulce weakens or an injury crops up.  Both a good young players who will be expected to contribute more next year.

Well said jsglow.  I like the potential of Ox and he is clearly superior on the offensive end than on the defensive end at this stage of his young career.  He will get the chance to be a beast again this year in the big east.  If he works hard and continues to develop he can be a Damon Key type offensive force as he moves into his upper-class years.  Its tough to get  minutes as Freshman Big Man on any competitive team.

[muchamps]

I for one believe Ox should be playing more minutes and believe that he can be a solid contributor right now. He is far superior to Otule on offense and about on par on D. except shot blocking. He is going to develop by playing against BEast competition, but he won't riding the pines. I have said this repeatedly. But some on this board are fixated on Otule and start urinating on Ox to advance their opinion.
I have said repeatedly that both have strengths and weaknesses, and Ox should be getting 15 minutes a game. For whatever reason, Buzz is not allowing this and he gives those minutes to Crowder and Fulce. Crowder is not a post, and neither is Fulce. Nothing against them--Crowder is a stud and should be playing at Forward--Fulce is a role player
The knock on Gardner is that he is not in condition. Not buying that. He played about 19 minutes against Duke, I believe, and besides, I do not believe Otule can go full out for 30 minutes a game either. So "free Ox" and give him the back up minutes, other than 1.5 minutes and then be yanked.

I for another, agree with you. Every min he plays this year, pays dividends now and next year. Next season he will be "the center" and start if coach invest now. There's no replacement for experience.

[MUSF]

Your point on the level of the competition is spot on. unfortunatley, it looks to me like Gardner will struggle with the pace of the game. He is a big guy and will likely not get much quicker. That will make it very difficult for him to defend in the BE.

Really?  He played very well against Duke.

I don't think you can reduce this to BEast competition.  Gardner like most freshmen, is inconsistent, doesn't know what it takes to be a good defender, and needs some time to mature.  More than most freshmen, he needs to get his body in D1 playing shape.

[willie warrior]

You are entitled to your opinion that Gardner is at this point in his career a legit Big East player.  I'm simply pointing out facts that I see from watching the games.  I'm not sure what you are doing, but it isn't based on any knowledge of basketball.  Are you blind perhaps?  Is that why you don't see what most other posters see in Gardner?  That he is not ready for the level of competition he's facing in the Big East. 

Does this sound like I'm "urinating" on him?
Or this?
Or this?


Give it up already.  You are in the vast minority with your opinion that he is ready.  That's fine, but deal with it, don't turn it into other people are "urinating" on a member of the team while you are the only one who is somehow supporting him.

No Sir Atlanta--but you continue to throw your slippery inuendoes around--are you blind perhaps, or do not have any basketball knowledge. Others could ask the same of you.
No I am not blind, just wear glasses for reading. And I will stand my knowledge of basketball to yours any day. You do not know me any more than I know you. So lets knock off the personal knocks.

[downtown85]

Really?  He played very well against Duke.

Really? I seem to recall that the guy he was guarding lit us up for something like 25 points and 10+ rebounds. 

I think that is the problem with this argument.  One has to look at his whole game defensive and offensive to tell if he is ready.  Right now he is the weak link on defense.  However, if Buzz wants some instant (half court) offense, he will call on him.  He is role player now but I expect he will develop the full package in the coming years.  I would actually like to see Buzz call a play out of a timeout which sets up Ox to take a 3 pointer.  I hear he has a very good outside shot. 

[ATL MU Warrior]

No Sir Atlanta--but you continue to throw your slippery inuendoes around--are you blind perhaps, or do not have any basketball knowledge. Others could ask the same of you.
No I am not blind, just wear glasses for reading. And I will stand my knowledge of basketball to yours any day. You do not know me any more than I know you. So lets knock off the personal knocks.

And calling someone a "urinator" isn't a personal knock? 

If I held the same opinion on this matter as you, I'm sure that others would question my basketball knowledge.  And rightfully so. 

And for the last time, I like Ox and believe he will be a key contributor for our team in the years to come.  This year, unless the matchups dictate or Otule gets in foul trouble, he should sit on the bench and earn no more than the spot minutes he is getting. 

[NavinRJohnson]

I mean I know if I were being recruited by Buzz that would by my biggest question to him. "Why should I play at MU when these other so called highly touted recruits couldn't wait just another semester to get out (Thereby burning a year of eligibility)."

I can't think of an easier question for Buzz to answer. If a kid is asking him that, he might as well sign the LOI right then and there. Recruits consistently talk about how direct Buzz is, and how he makes them no promises, and doesn't hand anything to anyone. There's your answer. If you are willing to come in and work, do what's necessary to be part of what we're trying to do...etc., etc.

[NersEllenson]

I mean I know if I were being recruited by Buzz that would by my biggest question to him. "Why should I play at MU when these other so called highly touted recruits couldn't wait just another semester to get out (Thereby burning a year of eligibility)."

Leaving at the semester does not cost the player a year of eligibility.  In fact, the player is able to play sooner, than if he transferred after the season.  Maymon is playing right now for Tennessee (albeit - not many minutes), and Jamil Wilson is sitting out this entire season.  So Jamil transferred in June of 2010, and won't play until November of 2011. 

In cases like Maymon and Smith it was all about immediate gratification - if 15 minutes per game wasn't enough as a freshman...clearly there was a level of impatience.  Lastly, Hazel was basically kicked off the MU team - you may recall he never got 1 minute of time after playing in the first 8 or so games of the 2008 season.  He had an off court issue.

Bottom line..I wouldn't worry about any of the 3 cases you mention.  The only gray area case would be DJ Newbill.