The Bottom Line

[El Duderino]

After further review, I'd like some clarification on who the 9 vs 8 are

Since 2000, MU has had 15 and Wisconsin 10.

Now, if you use the 2000 to 2008 criteria, looks to me like 10 for MU and 9 for UW.  

Per Pakuni's words...

Added NOTE:  6 of those top 100 UW players were 85 or worse (60%).  Only 3 MU players were (20%).  It's not just about quantity, but quality...no?

Marquette
Scott Merritt  #85
Travis Diener #40
Steve Novak #53
Dameon Mason #71
Wesley Matthews #61
Dominic James #36
Jerel McNeal #57
Trevor Mbakwe #91
Nick Williams #88
Tyshawn Taylor #73
Junior Cadougan #47
Erik Williams #67
Jeronne Maymon #73
Vander Blue #48
Jamail Jones #74


Wisconsin
Maurice Wade #90
Brian Butch #7
DeAaron Williams #91
Greg Stiemsma #37
Joe Krabbenhoft #28
Jason Bohannon #62
Trevon Hughes #88
John Leuer #86
Jarred Berggren #100
Evan Anderson #95

So, to recap, 9 is greater than 8.  But 9 is less than 10.  Furthermore, 15 is far greater than 10 and yet somehow they have been the best program in the state over the last decade.

Lists like these can be way overrated anyways

The best team Bo ever had was lead by guys like Arlando Tucker and Devin Harris who aren't even on these lists. This year, while Leuer is a great college player, Taylor is just as valuable to them on not on the top 100 list.

For MU, their Final Four run was fueled by Wade obviously and he isn't on the list, nor is Mark Jackson who was a vital cog.

Currently for MU, Butler is our best player and has performed like a top 100 recruit in his time here. DJO has struggled this season from the perimeter, but coaches of numerous top 100 recruits the last few years would have gladly traded their under-performing top 100 recruit for DJO. Both guys are clearly better players for example than top 100 recruit Erik Williams who came in roughly at the same time.

Programs like UW and MU will never consistently haul in multiple elite recruits every year, but with a quality coach, they can sprinkle in some 4-5 star recruits to go along with the other 2-3 star kids that hopefully fit with a system the coach runs and also that some might be underrated by the scouting services which attach stars or numerical rankings to them, often enough inaccurately.

Looking at both MU/UW since say Bo Ryan took over, i don't see any sizable gulf either way in how well the two schools have recruited when all kids who were brought are factored into the equation and based just on recruiting rankings which are hardly an exact science anyways.

Granted, Bo did win more consistently than Crean did at Marquette and time will tell with Buzz, but either way it's hard for any college coach to match what Bo does by at least getting to the dance every single year, even if his success in the tournament has often been short lived.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I don't disagree with you and have said that ratings are very iffy on players, especially high school kids.  But that was the criteria used by the other poster so in comparing apples to apples, they have "landed" fewer RSCI top 100 kids than MU but have had more success...more NCAA appearances, more NCAA wins, more conference titles, more conference tournament titles, more overall wins, better head to head with us, etc, etc.

[Marquette84]

For MU, their Final Four run was fueled by Wade obviously and he isn't on the list, nor is Mark Jackson who was a vital cog.

I think you meant Robert Jackson, who was actually ranked 33rd in the RSCI in 1998 (prior to 2000 so he wouldn't have been on the list). 

[MerrittsMustache]

I don't disagree with you and have said that ratings are very iffy on players, especially high school kids.  But that was the criteria used by the other poster so in comparing apples to apples, they have "landed" fewer RSCI top 100 kids than MU but have had more success...more NCAA appearances, more NCAA wins, more conference titles, more conference tournament titles, more overall wins, better head to head with us, etc, etc.

If you're supposedly comparing "apples to apples," why do conference titles and conference tournament titles come into play? MU and Wisconsin aren't in the same conference so that's clearly not an apples to apples comparison.

[El Duderino]

I don't disagree with you and have said that ratings are very iffy on players, especially high school kids.  But that was the criteria used by the other poster so in comparing apples to apples, they have "landed" fewer RSCI top 100 kids than MU but have had more success...more NCAA appearances, more NCAA wins, more conference titles, more conference tournament titles, more overall wins, better head to head with us, etc, etc.

I understand that top 100 was used and generally, most of the elite college players each year come from that top 100 ranking, more so top 40-50 though.

That said, i agree with the guy who said it's kinda a misnomer when people try implying that Bo wins every year with a bunch of nobody recruits. He doesn't land tons of top 100/4-5 star type of recruits, but he gets his share of them along with a good number of the next tier 100-200/3 star recruits.

What Bo does so well and better than the majority of other college coaches is find kids that fit what he wants for his system and then coach those kids up to play well in his system. It's why he won more consistently than Crean did at MU even though recruiting rankings wise, there was no wide gulf in the quality of recruits that Crean and Ryan brought in. Bo simply is a fabulous teacher as a basketball coach and better than most out there at it. Just as Crean couldn't win as consistently at MU as Bo has at UW, Buzz will also face tough odds in trying to reach the dance every year. Hell, even North Carolina missed the tournament last season.

Of course, for all of the success Bo Ryan has had at winning in the Big Ten and getting to the NCAA Tournament every single year, his teams overall have tended to struggle once at the NCAA Tournament. That's where his team's often lack of athleticism sometimes gets exposed and his mind boggling success at the Kohl Center can't help him/his teams.

All MU fans would love it if we also made the NCAA Tournament every single year as Bo Ryan has, but i question if that's a fair expectation to put on any coach at Marquette, be it Crean or Buzz. It's a very short list of schools or coaches that have made the big dance 10 straight years. So many factors can make a team have an off year or lose just enough close games to make them end up in the NIT instead, which is why Bo's streak of NCAA Tournament invites at a non-traditional basketball power with little history of past success is so well respected in the college basketball world, regardless of the often early exits in the tournament.

[ChicosBailBonds]

If you're supposedly comparing "apples to apples," why do conference titles and conference tournament titles come into play? MU and Wisconsin aren't in the same conference so that's clearly not an apples to apples comparison.

Uhm, the apples to apples comparison was using the RSCI rankings.  I was agreeing with El Duderino that these rankings aren't the best in the world, but to keep the discussion coherent I used the same source (the RSCI) as the original poster did...THUS, APPLES TO APPLES.


The examples of how they have been the dominant team this last decade were my own opinions (though all based on facts...they have won more conference titles, tournament titles, head to head, NCAA appearances, NCAA wins, total wins, etc). 

[ChicosBailBonds]

I understand that top 100 was used and generally, most of the elite college players each year come from that top 100 ranking, more so top 40-50 though.

That said, i agree with the guy who said it's kinda a misnomer when people try implying that Bo wins every year with a bunch of nobody recruits. He doesn't land tons of top 100/4-5 star type of recruits, but he gets his share of them along with a good number of the next tier 100-200/3 star recruits.

What Bo does so well and better than the majority of other college coaches is find kids that fit what he wants for his system and then coach those kids up to play well in his system. It's why he won more consistently than Crean did at MU even though recruiting rankings wise, there was no wide gulf in the quality of recruits that Crean and Ryan brought in. Bo simply is a fabulous teacher as a basketball coach and better than most out there at it. Just as Crean couldn't win as consistently at MU as Bo has at UW, Buzz will also face tough odds in trying to reach the dance every year. Hell, even North Carolina missed the tournament last season.

Of course, for all of the success Bo Ryan has had at winning in the Big Ten and getting to the NCAA Tournament every single year, his teams overall have tended to struggle once at the NCAA Tournament. That's where his team's often lack of athleticism sometimes gets exposed and his mind boggling success at the Kohl Center can't help him/his teams.

All MU fans would love it if we also made the NCAA Tournament every single year as Bo Ryan has, but i question if that's a fair expectation to put on any coach at Marquette, be it Crean or Buzz. It's a very short list of schools or coaches that have made the big dance 10 straight years. So many factors can make a team have an off year or lose just enough close games to make them end up in the NIT instead, which is why Bo's streak of NCAA Tournament invites at a non-traditional basketball power with little history of past success is so well respected in the college basketball world, regardless of the often early exits in the tournament.

I don't think people are saying that Bo wins with "nobody recruits".  It's clear, however, that he wins more than we do with less touted recruits if one were to use the RSCI data as a source.  It's also clear that the predictions of their demise by some here because they aren't landing recruits higher ranked than MU's is probably more wishful thinking than reality.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I think Chico's panties are in an extra tight bundle because his favorite coach / man-crush lost to Penn State AT HOME last night in one of their rare opportunities to get a Big Ten win this year (how long will the II,II fans put up with that

Penn State sure sucks.....